Proposal: New Flag and Coat of Arms

I'm looking at it through Firefox, on a Fedora 21 machine. I've checked the colors in Krita by just copying and pasting. You're right that that first purple color doesn't correspond to anything - the second one corresponds to the seal, and I can't manage to get one that looks like the flag because even ones that look right in Krita don't look right once I post them here. Grr.

The flag that you post does look like the right color - it's JUST the seal that's being weird. I've tried googling similar things and the only thing I can come up with is maybe check the color profiles of the files themselves? Apparently firefox will interpret profiles but most other browsers don't.

Looking with Chrome on a Windows 10 machine, things get funnier. The "seal" color is wrong, the "flag" color is right. For the second set, the "seal" color is correct, and the "flag" color is weird and wrong - and all sets of seal/flag images look like they have the same colors not weird purply ones.

So, I downloaded Firefox on the Windows 10 box and tested Chrome on the Linux one to see what happened there. Chrome on Linux looks perfect - everything is blue and pretty and the same colors and perfect. Firefox on Win10 I can't manage to download because holy shit my wifi is terrible, but I'm guessing it has the same problem as FFX on F21 does.

I also asked a friend who knows stuff about colors and monitors and he said it's probably the color profile (and said to google "icc color profile"), and maybe also look up how to set a color profile in Vector Magic and Paint.net? cause probably something is weird there somehow.

Also if anyone else is using Firefox and could confirm that I'm really not crazy here, please do. :P
 
OK,

I will wait for more posts, different people saying what they can see, and in the meantime I will move the last designs to the OP and look into it...

*starts googling things*

small update: tried firefox, it makes no difference to me. It doesn't look purply and after a screenshot, every software I've got that's able to pick a colour and generate a hex code tells me it's #1D2C7D. I keep looking into it.
 
I managed to test it on FFX on Win10, and the difference is subtle but present. If you can figure out how to change color profiles, I'd say use the flag's profile on the seal because it's a prettier color. :)

Sorry to be such a bother!
 
plembobria:
SillyString:
Also if anyone else is using Firefox and could confirm that I'm really not crazy here, please do. :P
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Firefox on Linux makes blues purplish to me. You're not crazy.
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Looks fine for me. I'm on Mac.
 
I have to say, the all-blue version looks so much more visually coherent that I don't even mind the little balls so much.
 
Yrkidding:
Looks blue on Firefox for Windows 7.
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Do the blues look identical, though? On FFX on Win10, for me, they are both blue but the blues are a little bit different (and I'm guessing that's what Grosse picked up on too).
 
MSPaint, GIMP, Paint.net and Inkscape all say that the blues are the same colour, however the blue in the seal does look noticeably darker in Chrome, Firefox and IE11 on Windows 7; my guess is it might be an optical illusion with the contrast against the white background. Both blues also look slightly purple-ish to me, but that could be subjective.
 
What I never seem to understand is why we don't use the tool that is formal debate. If we motioned to vote now, we'd still have 5 days of formal debate. We could continue talking. Then, we'd just go vote.
 
Because five days is not necessarily a guarantee that consensus is reached, and it's counterproductive to have to stop the vote happening because you're still making changes.

Plus, if debate has been solid (a fair amount of time, significant participation, and issues hashed out), formal debate can be shortened or even eliminated if the Speaker's Office okays it. The longer discussion goes on and the more productive it is, the more often they allow skipping formal debate.

The whole reason FD was introduced in the first place was to put an end to the habit of motioning something incomplete to vote just to get some attention paid to it, and then having to withdraw the motion as people finally chimed in. FD gets the same result (by forcing people to attend to something ASAP) while avoiding the annoyance for the Speaker. Since this proposal has a lot of discussion going on, FD isn't needed to generate interest.
 
SillyString:
Yrkidding:
Looks blue on Firefox for Windows 7.
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Do the blues look identical, though? On FFX on Win10, for me, they are both blue but the blues are a little bit different (and I'm guessing that's what Grosse picked up on too).
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I took a swatch of the seal's blue in the center part and the outside bars of the flag's blue and put them right next to each other in photoshop and you're right actually one of them is slightly more purple than the other.
 
I'm very happy about how the debate goes and how people keep shaping this, there's no rush and this is a nice, creative process which aims to get as many opinions as possible.

I will update the OP with an actual amendment proposal soon, but that doesn't mean that I think that we are necessarily ready for a vote.

edit: OP Updated, habemus proposal. Also with a slightly different blue, that might or maight not solve the purply problem.

Opinions please!
 
One minor suggestion to the legislative language:
Change "revised" to "updated." It's a minor thing, but I think "updated" is a more accurate verb to describe the result of the process of modernization.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
One minor suggestion to the legislative language:
Change "revised" to "updated." It's a minor thing, but I think "updated" is a more accurate verb to describe the result of the process of modernization.
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it is indeed.
 
I think the castle that I've been complaining about is starting to grow on me. It's color seems to go well with the other colors present. The thought of going against TRADITION still hurts me, but the more I see the proposed design, the more I come to accept it as a possibility.
 
have you considered that this could be a simple optical illusion? The surrounding colours could be affecting how you perceive the blue.
 
flemingovia:
have you considered that this could be a simple optical illusion? The surrounding colours could be affecting how you perceive the blue.
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It's not - the two are highly distinct and checking it in a photo editor confirms it. They're not, like... slightly lighter/slightly darker shades, but really very different. The original colors he proposed, the flag was a dusty blue and the seal was a bright neony blurple. And like I said, it only occurs when using firefox, and not at all on chrome. So I'm pretty sure it's a color profile issue.
 
SillyString:
They still look different to me - did you check the color profile of the image file?
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I changed the #1D2C7D blue, to a #00247D blue, hoping not to save the problem of different software running different ICC profiles, but to keep a blue that doesn't look purply on most devices. And the editors I use (Paint.net, Vector Magic and Artweaver) tell me that it's #00247D, again.

I'm about to open a poll to ask if people think the dress is... I mean the seal is blue or purply?!

I think the castle that I've been complaining about is starting to grow on me
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I modified it a bit, to increase the contrast, because it looked a bit bland (so you were kind of right on that lol)
 
From what I understand when I use imaging software the color dropper should be able to assure that all areas of blue are the exact same shade of blue. I've not only looked at the proposal on two separate HP notebooks (one bought in 2013, the other last month, both now on Windows 10, and using the latest version of Firefox with the same add ones, I also viewed it in the native Silk browser on the Kindle Fire HDX, and the blue now appears to be a medium-dark shade of blue without any tinge of purple/violet. So in my judgment it's go to go.
One historical note. I believe the red in the original was intended to represent land, but if we're adding a star, red as land just doesn't work as red being sky. That's why I suggested we switch to blue with the star, as well as the alternating blue and white being the seas and ocean waves. It just makes a lot more sense, and emphasizes blue as the main color of TNP. JMHO, YMMV.
 
Grosse, do you use Windows? The blue -> blurple distinction is much much much stronger on my Linux computer than on my Windows one.

Lennart: You should be able to change the color profile of a file in its properties.
 
SillyString:
Grosse, do you use Windows? The blue -> blurple distinction is much much much stronger on my Linux computer than on my Windows one.

Lennart: You should be able to change the color profile of a file in its properties.
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I've used Windows since 3.1 on desktops and notebooks, as my dealings with others precluded using iOS or Lunix for data file compatibility reasons.

As I said in my last post, both of my notebooks were upgraded to Windows 10 from 8.1; fortunately I was able to skip 8 altogether. I have also noticed that Microsoft released new drivers for grsphics csrds with Windows 10. For example the colors used by the National Weather Services to show watches, warnings, advisories and statements on national and local office maps are much easier to distinguish now than the driver that was used before in the Windows environment before this.
 
I am surprised to find that I'm not sure what to think of this proposal. (I expected myself to be opposed to any change that abandons the current set of symbols).

I do have a few questions:

1. What is the ratio of the pales (vertical stripes) on the proposed new flag? In the current flag, the ratio is 1:1:1.

2. Why is the number of towers in our Mural crown being reduced from 4 to 3?

3. Have we considered adding a heraldic definition of the arms (and/or a vexillogic definition of the flag) to the legal code as well?

4. Have we looked at versions of this new flag with brighter blues?

5. Have we considered having the change in flag be enacted on the 10th anniversary of this forum? (November 28, 2015)

6. Why do the proposed new arms have the shield overlap with the lower part of the scroll instead of leaving a distinguishing gap?

7. Has a gold or other thick border to the shield been considered?

8. Any chance, while we're doing this, that we could improve the symmetry of the scroll? (Or has this been done and I'm just blind?)

(A site which will accept SVG uploads is http://wiki.taijitu.org/ .)
 
Grosseschnauzer:
From what I understand when I use imaging software the color dropper should be able to assure that all areas of blue are the exact same shade of blue. I've not only looked at the proposal on two separate HP notebooks (one bought in 2013, the other last month, both now on Windows 10, and using the latest version of Firefox with the same add ones, I also viewed it in the native Silk browser on the Kindle Fire HDX, and the blue now appears to be a medium-dark shade of blue without any tinge of purple/violet. So in my judgment it's go to go.
One historical note. I believe the red in the original was intended to represent land, but if we're adding a star, red as land just doesn't work as red being sky. That's why I suggested we switch to blue with the star, as well as the alternating blue and white being the seas and ocean waves. It just makes a lot more sense, and emphasizes blue as the main color of TNP. JMHO, YMMV.
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Exactly, at least I can be sure of the proposal as we can see it on the OP. I started making sure thanks to your comments, Grosses and SillyString.

Also @SillyString:

I can't seem to change the ICC profile on W10 without messing with the Control Panel, which means a general change rather than just a file. IIRC this is how Windows always worked anyway.
Eluvatar:
1. What is the ratio of the pales (vertical stripes) on the proposed new flag? In the current flag, the ratio is 1:1:1.
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First of all, thanks for participating, without your opinion and Gulliver's I felt like this shouldn't even go to a vote, so I'm glad to hear what both of you think.

Well, the ratio? You noticed! The ratio is 2:3:2; I was working on a Canadian pale, but the Arms seemed too prominent. Then went back to the official ratio, and seemed too small, but I don't rule out the possibility to go back to 1:1:1 ratio. here's a 1:1:1 quick version:

21bn251.png
Eluvatar:
2. Why is the number of towers in our Mural crown being reduced from 4 to 3?
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I worked with 3, 4 and 5 towers on the mural crown. Never thought too much about how many towers it should have, but it looked better as it: was an odd number, so a central tower would stand out, and then I went for simplicity, so I went from the original 4 to 5 and ended up with the current 3 towers.
Eluvatar:
3. Have we considered adding a heraldic definition of the arms (and/or a vexillogic definition of the flag) to the legal code as well?
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While I prefer to keep the legal code as simple as possible, we could definitely do it now.
Eluvatar:
4. Have we looked at versions of this new flag with brighter blues?
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I will refer you to the "development thread" where this flag became real thanks to a bunch of TNPers and their suggestions, at the end of this post, so you will see which colours, crowns and other things we thought up and used or discarded, but... as an appetizer, here, have a version of the proposed flag with current official colours:

5ebc43.png
5. Have we considered having the change in flag be enacted on the 10th anniversary of this forum? (November 28, 2015)
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Genius! nobody suggested that so far but, that would be a more than worthy tribute to the former versions of the flag, and it will keep the sense of continuation and conservation... Provided that the region voted for whatever proposal we move to a vote.
6. Why do the proposed new arms have the shield overlap with the lower part of the scroll instead of leaving a distinguishing gap?
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Nobody missed the gap until now :P . It barely overlaps the ribbon, and in some other versions the ribbon overlaps the escutcheon a bit. The reason at first was making the escutcheon a bit bigger and prominent and, by the way, avoid the gap which is asymmetrical on the official Arms (that wasn't the only thing that I did to fix that, but now I see it's also a question lol):

n2lwyc.png
7. Has a gold or other thick border to the shield been considered?
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No, it hasn't. I'll play around with it, it could be an interesting addition.
8. Any chance, while we're doing this, that we could improve the symmetry of the scroll? (Or has this been done and I'm just blind?)
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It should be mostly fixed, since I cut the ribbon in halves and pasted them alongside as a mirror, modifying some bits and sizes of the Arms to compensate for it. At this point I thought it wasn't relevant anymore, but there's always room for improvement.
...

Thanks and here's the thread we used as a workshop and where we had many modifications of these arms.
 
Suggested change to enact on the anniversary:

Lennart:
Bill:
A Bill to Improve the Flag of The North Pacific.

1. Chapter 8 "Cultural Declarations", Section 8.1: "Arms, Flag, and Seal" of the Legal Code shall be amended to read, and appear as follows:

2. The following arms, based on a design by ThelDran and updated by the Ministry of Culture of The North Pacific, is adopted as the Coat of Arms of the North Pacific:
2gspsi0.png

3. Each institution in the North Pacific's government may establish for itself a seal which uses the arms of the North Pacific.
4. The arms of the North Pacific may not be used except to represent the North Pacific or an official regional entity.
5. The following flag, as designed by ThelDRan and updated by the Ministry of Culture of the North Pacific is adopted as the official flag of the North Pacific:
acq061.png
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2. This change will be enacted on the 10th anniversary of the adoption of the current forum: November 28, 2015.
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2. The following arms, based on a design by ThelDran revised by Eluvatar and Gulliver and updated by the Ministry of Culture of The North Pacific, is adopted as the Coat of Arms of the North Pacific:
2gspsi0.png

3. Each institution in the North Pacific's government may establish for itself a seal which uses the arms of the North Pacific.
4. The arms of the North Pacific may not be used except to represent the North Pacific or an official regional entity.
5. The following flag, as designed by ThelDRan and revised by Eluvatar and Gulliver updated by the Ministry of Culture of the North Pacific is adopted as the official flag of the North Pacific:
acq061.png
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BTW, having made the annotated version, I'm wondering why you changed "revised" to "updated" :tb1:
(Also, why is it "The North Pacific" in your first change but "the North Pacific" in your second? Perhaps we could change all instances in the chapter to "The North Pacific" ?)
 
Eluvatar:
Suggested change to enact on the anniversary:

[...]

BTW, having made the annotated version, I'm wondering why you changed "revised" to "updated" :tb1:
(Also, why is it "The North Pacific" in your first change but "the North Pacific" in your second? Perhaps we could change all instances in the chapter to "The North Pacific" ?)
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It looks amazing now, ta!

I changed "revised" to "updated" after Grosses' advice, I think it made sense so I went along with it. The capitalisation of "The" in "The North Pacific" it's inconsistent because I started writing the amendment myself 'till I realised it'd be easier to copy the whole thing from the Legal Code and modify it later. I had started capitalising "The" but I noticed the Legal Code didn't so started de-capitalising them again and it seems I forgot some... If that makes sense.

I personally would love to change them all to "The" but honestly I was trying to make the least amount of changes possible.
 
If there is inconsistent usage of "The" instead of "the" when giving the name of this region, then all of them need to be fixed. There was a UCR named "the North Pacific" (I haven't looked to see if it is still around), but it is important to correctly use "The" in the Legal Code, and wither this proposal or a separate bill should come forward to fix that. (We used to have a mechanism for fixing such minor errors, but that was nullified by the Court, regretably, and a bill would be needed to correct reference "The North Pacific>"

Since the intent of this proposal is to modernize the seal and flag and not a whole new coat of arms and flag, I suggested to Lennart upthread that "updated" wpuld be a better descriptive verb than revise, since the primary intent is to modernize on the one hand, and honor our traditions on the other. The original law that adopted the flag, TNP Law 2 in the old legal code, was adopted in June of 2005. In looking at Thel D'Ran's comments then, he had designed the flag prior to Great Blight era in 2004, and he didn't remember the reasons for the choices, other that he offered it to the region. Since most of the elements are essentially the same, I just think "updated" is a better description of what is being done that "revised."
 
Sorry for not being active on this topic, I've been busy making my dreams come true IRL lol, but here's one of Eluvatar's ideas (go for a solid gold border), and I think it's cool because it's another thing already present on the current official version of the Arms:

mry9o8.png

20ggpdv.png


Your thoughts on this?
 
Actually now that I think about it, I don't really like the gold border either...
 
Unless you buy Lennart's original statement that the current flag and coat of arms look "shabby and put together in a hurry" and are "a joke", then I still do not see a reason for moving from a flag and coat of arms everyone else seems happy with to one that nobody seems to be able to agree on.

Other than Lennart, who has been complaining about the current flag? because this seems to be giving a lot of traction to one person's hobby horse of heraldry.
 
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