[SC - In Queue] Condemn Macedon

Discussion in 'WA Affairs' started by TlomzKrano, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. TlomzKrano

    TlomzKrano Just a blob chasing cars Minister Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    [​IMG]
    Condemn Macedon
    Category: Condemnation | Nominee: Macedon
    Proposed by: Kuriko | Onsite Topic
    Voting Instructions:
    • Vote For if you want the Delegate to vote For the resolution.
    • Vote Against if you want the Delegate to vote Against the resolution.
    • Vote Abstain if you want the Delegate to abstain from voting on this resolution.
    • Vote Present if you are personally abstaining from this vote.
    Detailed opinions with your vote are appreciated and encouraged!
     
  2. TlomzKrano

    TlomzKrano Just a blob chasing cars Minister Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    Ministry IFV
    Macedon is an ancient region who was among the first imperialistic regions in the NS community. In accordance with actions they committed during their active existence, they were condemned under the very first Security Council Resolution (SC #1). The reason for existence of this second condemnation is to expand upon the first, specifically in detailing the actions Macedon committed which warranted the original condemnation. These actions including using puppets to undermine other regional governments and overthrow sitting governments, invading and forcing out natives from their home region, passwording and refounding regions to prevent natives from reestablishing their community, and attempting to take over and/or refound France, Belgium, and Greece. Furthermore, the actions Macedon committed against Belgium helped pave the way for the creation of Liberations in the SC.

    In hopes of maintaining proper SC history while providing context to historical resolutions and in accordance with the facts stated above, the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote For this proposal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018 at 2:16 AM
  3. Yuno

    Yuno TNPer Supporter Citizen

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    for!

    I don't have any strong feelings about Macedon and kinda never heard about it, but it seems that the author put effort into writing the proposal and researching history.
    WA: yuno owl
     
  4. Sil Dorsett

    Sil Dorsett Minister of... Foreign Affairs!? Supporter Security Council Roleplay Moderator Minister Citizen

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    Not until the original is repealed. Against.
     
  5. Bobberino

    Bobberino DMoHA/Comms, DDMoD Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    I'm with Sil. Against.
     
  6. Brendog

    Brendog An TNL lover Supporter Election Commissioner NPA Citizen

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    Agreed with sil and bob on this. Against
     
  7. Marcus Antonius

    Marcus Antonius Per Ardua Ad Astra Citizen

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  8. Syrixia

    Syrixia The one, the true, the great. Supporter Citizen

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    Against. This resolution is old as fuck. I smell red tape. Why is this necessary. Just keep the old one and let's tackle more important shit. Come on, WA.
     
  9. Sanjurika

    Sanjurika Koala Fanatic Citizen

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    Against. I don't see why it's necessary ^
     
  10. bowloftoast

    bowloftoast TNPer Deputy Minister Citizen

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    Against
    - Agree, the original should be repealed if the Condemnation is to be amended.
    - Given the age of the original, it's awfully tough to verify these new accusations without corroboration.
    - Maybe this is a technicality, but the nation from which this proposal comes only has a population of 2.3 Billion, but is speaking to issues that took place over a decade ago. If the author was actually around during the time this all allegedly took place, then they should be submitting this proposal from a nation that has an equivalent history.
    - Also, on the technicality side of things, the link in the proposal header directs to the nation, while the links in the body direct to the region.
     
  11. Loh

    Loh Supreme Cat Supporter Citizen

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    Against
     
  12. TlomzKrano

    TlomzKrano Just a blob chasing cars Minister Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    For, I really dont see a reason to be against this. The original proposal is a piece of NS history and shows where we have come from while this update adequately expresses what the original didn't.
     
  13. Praetor

    Praetor Hoppin' Around Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    For.

    A repeal is already written.

    We regularly have attempts at repealing the other condemnation since nations do not understand the significance of the resolution.

    The idea that the population of the nation here matters is ridiculous. It is the Delegate of 10KI guys, pretty sure he knows what he is doing. The accusations are additionally not new, they were always there but were not written in the previous resolution.
     
  14. Pascolar

    Pascolar New Arrival Citizen

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  15. bowloftoast

    bowloftoast TNPer Deputy Minister Citizen

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    Population = length of time a Nation has existed, and a nation with a 2.3B population has not existed long enough to have actually been in NS when the original was passed or the alleged incidents took place. That the person is the delegate is irrelevant. They are speaking to events that took place over a decade ago, at a time when they weren't in NS. Where, then, is the information coming from? All of this speaks to credibility.
     
  16. Praetor

    Praetor Hoppin' Around Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    Perhaps I was not clear enough. The population of a nation is irrelevant as it the proposer may have had multiple nations or CTEd. In this case, Kuriko has been playing NS since 2012.

    Their status as a Delegate of 10KI is not irrelevant as it demonstrates their competency and does give them legitimacy and authority given 10KI's status in NS and their historical (and current) prominence.

    It is easy to research information if you spend the time or accumulate over time. Additionally, Macedon's mark on NS still remains.

    By your stance, does it mean for an author to be able to commend or condemn a nation/region, they must be there for everything that transpired?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  17. bowloftoast

    bowloftoast TNPer Deputy Minister Citizen

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    Thanks for clarifying. It would help to know that they were in the game at the time. Histories get embellished over time, so I like to get right back to the source material whenever possible. Also matters to me that information is coming first hand, from someone who experienced it. This is extremely detailed information, citing numbers of players ejected from nations, and time frames for those ejections. In none of the digging I've done, do I find any source for all that, so I'm still curious about where it is drawn from.

    In the context stated in my OP, and in the context of hearsay (if that were the case) the source of the hearsay doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with the competency of the individual or their trustworthiness, it's simply that second hand or repeated information lacks credibility, no matter who it is doing the repeating. This is why it was important to me to know that the facts stated in the proposal are coming from a first hand witness, or from a written history, as opposed to being drawn from what could be NS legend.

    If it is on a matter that goes back a decade, and if there is no written history to back up the statements being made, then yes, absolutely.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  18. Kuriko

    Kuriko TNPer

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    Greetings friends from The North Pacific. While I am not a citizen of TNP, and I know my opinion here doesn't matter in the same context as yours, I wish to address the conversation concerning my SC proposal. I see many reasons being thrown around as to the validity of my proposal, from me not being on NS in the relevant time period to me just pulling facts out of nowhere.

    For a little background, lets start with when I joined NationStates. I began playing NationStates in 2012, using a nation named Lenlyvit. I know that's about the tail-end of the Macedonian era, so in effect I was indeed not around when they were at their hight. But I fail to see why me not being around during their hight has anything to do with the validity of my proposal.

    I left NS in late 2013, leaving due to graduating from High School and not having access to the internet at home. In late 2016 I returned to NS and grew interested in defending, as well as Security Council authoring. In the last 2 years I have written 7 Security Council resolutions, one of them commending a region with 15 years of history and another one commending a nation with 10 years of history while the other five varied between liberations and repeals.

    In my latest proposal to condemn the region of Macedon I had to dig for information, and in this case it was indeed harder than the other two commendations I wrote. I had to seek information from the NS forums, from NS region archives, and from people who were around when these things happened. The following is a list of where I gathered my evidence for this proposal, and in some instances you may need to read it yourself.

    · In this Thread it talks about Macedon's raid of the region of Belgium. There is also talk of what happened to France previously, although it wasn't as prominent as the Belgium raid. They also discuss Macedonian disdain for Greeks, and how Macedon seems to have been on an ethnic cleansing streak. They also discuss Macedon's use of sleepers to impose passwords, and how liberations were introduced because of Belgium.

    · In this Thread there is an announcement from Grub about TITO's interception of the France refound attempt by Macedon after griefing the region.

    . In the following screenshots I spoke with my friend Frattastan, who had access to the FRA forums and their records. These are evidence for what I say about the Macedon attack on Greece. They used a sleeper, as evidenced by the native endos on the Macedon lead nation.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    · In the following spoiler is a list of the regions Macedon still has control over, some of which they've had for almost 12 years. I found these by digging through regional rankings (which was a pain), then double checked by looking at a regional dump from 2016.

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=hrvatska

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=czech

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=hellenic_republic

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=slovak_republic

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=sri_lanka

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=republic_of_macedonia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=republic_of_bulgaria

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=nepal

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=myanmar

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=slovenia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=persia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=venezuela

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=bangladesh

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=mauritania

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=libya

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=niger

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=mali

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=andorra

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=gibraltar

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=czech_republic

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=montenegro

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=jordan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=burma

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=fyrom

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=malta

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=bolivia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=ivory_coast

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=bahrain

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=kyrgyzstan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=turkmenistan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=macedonian

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=kurdistan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=eritrea

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=nigeria

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=azerbaijan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=colombia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=chad

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=belarus

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=tajikistan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=makedonia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=hellas

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=papua_new_guinea

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=albania

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=crna_gora

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=latvia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=pakistan

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=bosnia_and_herzegovina

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=hungary

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=democratic_republic_of_congo

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=moldova

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=lithuania

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=tunisia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=croatia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=yemen

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=macedonian_empire

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=macedonia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=the_macedonian_empire

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=oman

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=estonia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=cambodia

    https://www.nationstates.net/region=bulgaria

    I know that this is a long post, and am sorry for that. However, with the evidence I have provided I hope that maybe you will support my proposal. I worked hard to gather the information for my proposal, as I always do when considering a commendation or condemnation. As mentioned before, I would like to inform you that I do indeed have a Repeal drafted for SC#1 and ready for submission if this proposal is passed. Thank you for your time.

    Best regards,
    Kuriko
     
  19. bowloftoast

    bowloftoast TNPer Deputy Minister Citizen

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    Thanks @Kuriko, appreciate you providing context to your proposal, and for citing your exceptional research on the subject.

    It is my normal practice to try and drill down into the veracity of all SC proposals, mainly because I don't know who's who among those who submit them. I hope you won't interpret my caution as anything personal, since I have no prior experience with you. I view all condemnations with a similarly cautious eye, and it is a product of my time in journalism to question the quality of any 'fact' until it can be verified. I've been trained never to simply 'take someone's word for it'.

    That your nation wasn't in NS at the time was only relevant insofar as you weren't here to experience these things first-hand. Knowing how stories can get embellished or distorted over time, and the lack of forum history back to the time the target was drafted, the concern was that the history you were receiving could well be subject to those factors. A decade is a long time for people to remember details, and those details remembered are frequently inaccurate. This is why written evidence, from that era, was important. Again, not a statement about you at all, but rather an appreciation of how stories can morph over time, especially those shared as anecdote.

    Thanks for your great work on this one, for putting in the extra effort in research, and for taking the time to bring that research to this thread. Next time I see your name on a proposal, I'll know that the background work is solid.
     
  20. St George

    St George RP Dog Supporter Roleplay Moderator NPA Citizen

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    Present
     
  21. bowloftoast

    bowloftoast TNPer Deputy Minister Citizen

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    On that note, changing my vote to For
    (provided this passing doesn't create some manner of double jeopardy)
     
  22. Pallaith

    Pallaith TNPer Security Council Vice Delegate Citizen

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    For

    The fact that the other one hasn't been repealed yet does not mean this one cannot or should not pass. A repeal can come later, or not at all, depending on the nature of this condemnation. Sometimes a second condemnation is warranted, sometimes people don't want to repeal an old condemnation unless they are assured there is a successful replacement. This is another take on a historical resolution, the most historical one in fact, as it was the first SC resolution ever passed, so it makes sense that some people may want to see this successfully passed before we repeal the very first SC resolution ever written. I fear that many of you are applying very strange and irrelevant standards to this sort of vote and I really hope that doesn't become a regular thing. It's old? So what? Red tape? What? You all have a right to your own opinion and your own vote, but I wish you would take a little more time to take a look at it and give it thoughtful consideration before dismissing it out of hand on so little.
     
  23. Sanjurika

    Sanjurika Koala Fanatic Citizen

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    For

    After reading Kuriko's lengthy explanation and Pallaith's urge to look more, I've decided to change my vote.
     
  24. Stoskavanya1

    Stoskavanya1 TNPer Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    For

    Why not.
     
  25. Lord Lore

    Lord Lore I'm anything you want me to be. Supporter Security Council Citizen

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    Against

    I find this akin to grave digging. Its been nearly a decade now since Macedon has done a thing. Let it die in the fires of forgotten history. If you are looking for punishment on those who have done evil, that is your greatest weapon. To let them watch while they are forgotten and to show that what they did doesn't matter because everyone else moves forwards.
     
  26. Kuriko

    Kuriko TNPer

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    Thank you for your kind words BowlofToast! :)

    I understand where you are coming from Lord Lore, yet I disagree. What Macedon did will always be talked about in NS history. They were the first empire builders, the first password exploiters. Because of what Macedon did we now have SC liberations to save communities, and also because of what they did there are many regions with good RL names that will never have a community in them again. They are more than deserving of a complete condemnation for their acts.
     
  27. Lord Lore

    Lord Lore I'm anything you want me to be. Supporter Security Council Citizen

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    I really don't think that is true. I joined NS in early 2013 and I didn't even heard about Macedon or etc until well into 2015 or 16. And the only times I have ever heard about them is when people want to dig up the past to try to put together more condemnations or to try to repeal the first one or etc. Its time to let it go and let it die. The only reason we remember it is because people like you who wish to dig up ancient history to put it in a display case to go "Ohh look how bad this person who no one knows about was".

    P.S. if you want to condemn people for destroying regions and making sure no communities can be there, I want you to also go after the people who "Liberate" the regions from these old extinct groups and then just hold onto them like trophies as well.
     
  28. BMWSurfer

    BMWSurfer Minister of Home Affairs Supporter Minister Election Commissioner NPA Citizen

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  29. Lord Lore

    Lord Lore I'm anything you want me to be. Supporter Security Council Citizen

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    For further context into how relevant this condemnation is. I looked up just how many things Macedon has done in the last several..... years. And the totality that I could find was..... 5 RMB posts the youngest of which was 6 Years and 280+ days ago.

    For the love of god, our own Malphe popped up there nearly 3 years ago to basically make fun of them for being dead and Macedon hasn't even gotten around to suppressing it it is that inactive. They haven't even had the drive to even have a Delegate in nearly 2 years.

    In summery the only thing keeping Macedon alive is stuff like this, let...it...die...already........

    Also I thought we were opposed to giving people badges of honor? Cuz if that is so they tout their condemnation of the region Macedon like a badge of pride on their WFE....... so why give them a second one?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018 at 5:11 AM
  30. Siwale

    Siwale TNPer Supporter Delegate Election Commissioner NPA Citizen

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    For

    (I’ll hold off on voting for now since we are pretty evenly split)
     
  31. New Bremerton

    New Bremerton Registered

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  32. Wilkshire

    Wilkshire Wise Elder Statesman Citizen

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  33. TlomzKrano

    TlomzKrano Just a blob chasing cars Minister Deputy Minister NPA Citizen

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    At this point Id say we have enough of a lead to go ahead and vote For now. Most of the people who vote have voted, probably shouldn't see much change at this point.
     
  34. Siwale

    Siwale TNPer Supporter Delegate Election Commissioner NPA Citizen

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  35. Panama Coalition

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