Vice Delegate Recall Motion

Just a Lore

Just a Lore

Eldritch Horror that Plagues Eras Cartography
-
-
Pronouns
He/They/Any
TNP Nation
Frances_Francis_the_First_of_Frances
Discord
Just_a_Lore
After careful consideration, I present to the Regional Assembly a motion to recall the sitting Vice Delegate, Deropia.

Deropia’s last message to the Security Council was on June 9th.
His last known message to anyone in TNP was on June 11th.
He has failed to respond to messages from any source (incl. the messaging services of the TNP Forum, NationStates site, Discord, and through email) from the Security Council or any member of The North Pacific that has been asked to contact him since then.

Although he continued performing citizenship security checks until June 23rd, he did so isolated from the Security Council, and now even those too have ceased, the Security Council has had to select an Acting Chair to perform the duties of the Vice Delegate to continue the responsibilities of the Vice Delegate including but not limited to citizenship checks and posting issues of the WADP.. Deropia has further not logged into the nationstates site since June 24th, and failed to post the last issue of the WADP.

I do not present this motion lightly. Recalling an elected official is a major step, and is not the solution to small problems. However, the Vice Delegate has a key role in TNP security, and we are all left vulnerable if they cannot fulfill the duties of their office.

~Lord Lore
 
As hard as it is for me to say this, I agree that recall may be our best option. Despite Deropia logging into the forum, they have not responded to any messages, nor carried out the duties of the VD, such as security checks and the World Assembly Development Program Awards, which would not have been posted had McMasterdonia, who has been serving as the Acting Chair of the Security Council, not done so.

I would also like to bring to the Assembly's attention that despite the Delegacy transition occurring rather quickly, Deropia still sits at the bottom of the Security Council, behind myself, SillyString, and Romanoffia, meaning they are not even the in-game VD yet.

In the interests of security, it is paramount that the Assembly considers removing Deropia as the Vice Delegate.

[img=571,344]https://i.imgur.com/xdLnkoF.png[/img]​
 
I agree that Deropia should be recalled, but I think that we should prolong this until after the forum move. If necessary, during the infancy of the new forum, the admins can do the VD's duties as it relates to security checks until we're settled in our new forum.
 
Syrixia:
I agree that Deropia should be recalled, but I think that we should prolong this until after the forum move. If necessary, during the infancy of the new forum, the admins can do the VD's duties as it relates to security checks until we're settled in our new forum.
Click to expand...
The Admins are not legally allowed to do SC checks, Syr. The only people allowed to do checks are the members of the Security Council, and the duties are passed down according to the line of succession. Great Bights Mum was unavailable, so the duties have been filled temporarily by McMasterdonia. The only other admin that would be able to do checks would be Asta, but the likeliness that the people above her on the SC were not available all at once is super rare.

I agree, the timing is bad, but prolonging a security risk is not something I stand for.
 
Then if we're gonna do this we need to do this quickly. I recommend that Lore motions for a vote sometime tomorrow or in two days at the latest.
 
Syrixia:
I agree that Deropia should be recalled, but I think that we should prolong this until after the forum move. If necessary, during the infancy of the new forum, the admins can do the VD's duties as it relates to security checks until we're settled in our new forum.
Click to expand...
This has to go through several stages and to delay this until after the Justice Elections would be a disservice to this region. This is a LONG process for a reason and to delay it even longer is bad for the region.

If this where to come to a vote and pass, the special election will probably be far enough out that it will end up on the next forum to begin with.
 
A recall is always an unfortunate thing. For some reason Deropia has been logging in to the forum but not fulfilling his duties or answering any questions. We don’t know why he cannot do them and we do not know when he will be able to. I can do the VD checks and run the WADP in the meantime, but it’d not make sense to leave that as an open ended responsibility. I support the recall.
 
I share concerns with the apparent absence of the Vice-Delegate in completing there duties. While we do have contingencies for absent VD, in terms of a member of the Security Council fulfilling these duties, it is troublesome that we are at this point as well. I am also concerned about the lack of endorsements. We are two months into the term. The delegate transition was fairly quick and painless. If I recall Deropia started with little to none endorsements, but there have been a number of telegrams sent out and ample opportunity for them to raise their counts.

In regards to an "Abandoning Office", is it 14 days since they last posted or is it 14 days since they last logged into the forum? IF the situation is the former, then in 4 days he shall have abandoned his office and a vote would be unnecessary. If the latter then my question is moot and bears no weight.
 
Artemis:
I share concerns with the apparent absence of the Vice-Delegate in completing there duties. While we do have contingencies for absent VD, in terms of a member of the Security Council fulfilling these duties, it is troublesome that we are at this point as well. I am also concerned about the lack of endorsements. We are two months into the term. The delegate transition was fairly quick and painless. If I recall Deropia started with little to none endorsements, but there have been a number of telegrams sent out and ample opportunity for them to raise their counts.

In regards to an "Abandoning Office", is it 14 days since they last posted or is it 14 days since they last logged into the forum? IF the situation is the former, then in 4 days he shall have abandoned his office and a vote would be unnecessary. If the latter then my question is moot and bears no weight.
Click to expand...
The law is worded as 14 days without logging into the forum. He keeps logging into the forum every few days but is not responding or posting. At the current rate this could go on until the 23rd of July when he would conceivable lose citizenship.
 
It’s absolutely clear to me that this is necessary, and I do not say that lightly. We’ve given this as much time as was fair and appropriate. Absence without explanation, and despite apparent availability, causes great concern for me. This is mid-term and we don’t have an in-game Vice Delegate. It’s midterm and we’re doing substitute VD checks and WADP. The office is the most important security role in the region and it needs to be filled by someone actively engaged. I’m sure Deropia has his reasons and I know the kind of work and ethic he puts into his work in this region, which makes this all the more urgent.

This is a long process as has been said. If you’re as convinced as I am that this is regrettably necessary, we should proceed.
 
Lord Lore:
The law is worded as 14 days without logging into the forum. He keeps logging into the forum every few days but is not responding or posting. At the current rate this could go on until the 23rd of July when he would conceivable lose citizenship.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the clarification.

I am in support of moving forward with the recall.
 
As saddened as I am by this, I believe this is a needed measure. The region cannot go on for 2 more months without a Vice-delegate. That being said, we should give thought to how the following special election will be timed with the upcoming forum move. Thoughts on this would be appreciated
 
If the forum move were to occur during the special election, our emergency laws would permit the election commission to take "reasonable actions which they deem appropriate and which are consistent with the spirit and intent of regional laws to preserve the continuity of both community and government for the duration of the emergency." In my view, that would likely involve assessing to what extent people are able to get into their new accounts on the forum, and possibly delaying the voting period until things settle down. If the migration happened during the voting period, it would probably be restarted. It would be a difficult situation, but not insurmountable.

The best chance of completing a recall and special election before a forced migration is to act quickly.
 
As the main person managing citizenship checks for the moment, I agree we need a permanent solution. The Vice Delegate must be able to maintain activity to serve the security needs of the region. So the sooner we move forward to assure this, the better.
 
A difficult situation to be in, but if he has neglected his duty; then he has neglected his duty and deserves the recall. With the looming forum migration, we as a community must act quickly and replace him.
 
Noting the motion by Bobberino and its subsequent seconding by Bootsie, I hereby schedule a vote to begin in 2 days from now.
 
Thomas Insaniac:
A difficult situation to be in, but if he has neglected his duty; then he has neglected his duty and deserves the recall. With the looming forum migration, we as a community must act quickly and replace him.
Click to expand...
Because we haven't been able to get a hold of him, we don't know for sure whether this is dereliction or incapacity. Either way, it's a condition we shouldn't allow to persist for too long of a time. Yes, we have a backup method, one we're using right now, but the sooner we get back to having an active, democratically elected Vice Delegate, the better.
 
Although he continued performing citizenship security checks until June 23rd, he did so isolated from the Security Council,
Click to expand...

How often would a Vice Delegate normally consult with the SC on normal Security Checks? my understanding is that the Vice Delegate would normally only talk to the whole SC if a danger to the region was flagged up, which is rarely.

I think before voting in favour of this I would like to hear from the Vice Delegate themselves or have more than 10 days pass without login.

Recalls are not light matters and this one seems a little preemptive, especially around the exam and (in the US) holiday season.
 
flemingovia:
I think before voting in favour of this I would like to hear from the Vice Delegate themselves or have more than 10 days pass without login.

Recalls are not light matters and this one seems a little preemptive, especially around the exam and (in the US) holiday season.
Click to expand...
We would love to hear from the Vice Delegate but they have no responded to any avenue of messaging despite logging in and viewing threads. Also I do not see merit in waiting til they fail to log in for 10 days because by that time they would feasibly abandon the office in the middle of the vote to recall them.

I would also like to point out there was a nearly 2 week period 6/11 to 6/23 (a full 2 weeks if you count the period where they stopped communicating with the SC 6/9 to 6/23) where they were still posting on the forum but they were refusing to answer any messages and since the 23rd they have been logging into the forum and iirc even reading threads on the forum. Meaning this is not an access issue but a de facto abandoning of the office but logging in just enough to not trigger the clause.
 
We’ve had many occasions, especially around this time of year, when officials including delegates and vice delegates, have gone inactive for a spell. Without recall.

This seems premature
 
I feel that at this point, it may be relevant to say that despite multiple and varied attempts to contact him (over the last month), I have not gotten any response back.

His inactivty in this case is not just forum inactivity, but a lack of communication with government and the general public. (But I get that it doesn’t count unless he hasn’t been fulfilling his duties)

I know for sure that Tlomz also tried contacting him various ways and was not successful. If I’m recalling correctly, Sil and Siwale also tried with similar results.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, exams in the US don’t generally occur this late. That’s more of a late May/early June thing.
 
flemingovia:
How often would a Vice Delegate normally consult with the SC on normal Security Checks? my understanding is that the Vice Delegate would normally only talk to the whole SC if a danger to the region was flagged up, which is rarely.
Click to expand...
I accidentally skipped this part, but doing checks while actively ignoring the Security Council is a DANGEROUS practice. If any of the members of the SC has information regarding anyone that applies for citizenship or any questions are raised and the Vice Delegate is ignoring messages from the SC about it. While hypothetical, is a situation you could easily find yourself in if a Vice Delegate is doing checks blindly ignoring counsel. Which was happening for a period of 2 weeks even before another additional week of not logging into NationStates and ceasing to post entirely on the TNP Forum.
 
So how many times has this hypothetical situation actually arisen in the past 15 years? By this I mean a Sc member raising a concern with the Vice Delegate during the citizenship check process?

I think i want to get some grasp of the ACTUAL danger rather than a hypothetical scaremongering.
 
abc:
Noting the motion by Bobberino and its subsequent seconding by Bootsie, I hereby schedule a vote to begin in 2 days from now.
Click to expand...
Regional Assembly Rules:
4. If a number of citizens equal to or exceeding one third of the number of votes required to achieve quorum for any legislative vote, including the citizen that introduced the proposal to the Regional Assembly, motion that a vote should be held on a proposal before the Regional Assembly, then the Speaker must schedule a vote on that proposal to begin as soon as permitted by law.
Click to expand...
Now while I would support the recall of Deropia, I'm afraid that you can't schedule the vote until Lore also agrees to motion for a vote.. And I agree with Flemingovia
flemingovia:
It's exam week in the UK. Holiday season in the US. Football season all over the World
Click to expand...
Deropia hasn't logged on since July 1 but in the U.S. it's a time when everybody takes a break for America's independence and he may have exams if he's in the UK, specially in upper grades...
Regional Assembly Rules:
3. If, before a vote on a proposal begins, at least three citizens object to the decision of the Speaker to schedule it, the Speaker must cancel the scheduled vote.
Click to expand...
I object to the decision for a vote!
 
I object also

Deropia logged in on 2nd July. Five days ago. given the lenity we have afforded other elected officials when they have gone AWOL for a spell, this proposal seems absurdly premature. I wonder what political agenda is being played out here?

Should the RA pass this motion then, for the sake of fairness, we should also recall every elected official and SC member who fails to log on for five days. Which would be absurd.
 
The issue is not that it’s the 4th of July holiday. He has not performed his duties as Vice Delegate since the 23rd of June. Almost two weeks. He has yet perform his duty of becoming the in-game Vice-Delegate and from what I have seen has not attempted to do so in some time. We need a Vice-Delegate who is performing their job both in Game and on the Forum. I know RL takes precedent, but if you are not able to perform your job to which you were elected then let people know. We have LoA if you know you are going to be absent. Objecting to the vote does nothing but delay vice-delegate checks for citizenship, requiring others to do a job that they were not elected to do, and delay projects which require the Vice-Delegate to be active and engaged.
 
Dinoium:
Dinoium:
I object to the decision for a vote!
Click to expand...
flemingovia:
I object also
Click to expand...
BluieGamer:
I object. IIRC, Deropia was moving house.
Click to expand...

Regional Assembly Rules:
3. If, before a vote on a proposal begins, at least three citizens object to the decision of the Speaker to schedule it, the Speaker must cancel the scheduled vote.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Stop spamming the Regional Assembly. Thank you.
 
flemingovia:
So how many times has this hypothetical situation actually arisen in the past 15 years? By this I mean a Sc member raising a concern with the Vice Delegate during the citizenship check process?

I think i want to get some grasp of the ACTUAL danger rather than a hypothetical scaremongering.
Click to expand...
First of all, we haven't had the VD doing citizenship checks for 15 years. It's been... maybe three.

I can reference one instance off the top of my head: When Bootsie was Vice Delegate, they admitted Dalimbar as a citizen. Dalimbar had previously been discussed by the SC as a security threat and recommended for denial if he applied in the future. By not consulting the SC, this warning was not able to be taken into account.

Dinoium:
Now while I would support the recall of Deropia, I'm afraid that you can't schedule the vote until Lore also agrees to motion for a vote.
Click to expand...
You are wrong. A non-legislative motion may be moved and seconded by anybody. The portion you quoted deals with forcing an immediate vote on something which has been blocked by other RA members and the speaker.

You are now correct that the Speaker is required to cancel the scheduled vote, as three citizens have objected. And I will say that I too am concerned about the speed that this was pushed to vote. I agree that Deropia's absence is a serious matter, but so is recall. The RA deserves a chance to discuss and debate this and hear from more voices. Although we are facing a forum move, we should not abandon our democratic processes in undue stress.

Flem: You are not wrong that we have been more lenient in the past. However, that lenience has shrunk in recent years. We have become bigger and more active, and have built more requirements and needs into our laws and expectations. In years past, it did not matter if the VD vanished for a week or two, because they were not performing a key role in admitting new citizens to the region. Their absence did not delay the processing of applications. Now, the VD not performing their duty means that applicants cannot be processed for three days. This does not sound like much, but with the volume of requests we receive, it really is.

The VD is not the only role where such diligence has become expected. The Speaker is another example. They must put motions to vote, they must count the votes, and there are processes to follow for both of those. We have granted the RA the power to demand an immediate vote on something, and a Speaker not putting things to vote denies the RA of that right. Bootsie faced a recall motion as Speaker after three weeks of inactivity, as I recall, but resigned before it went to vote.

I do not believe there is a greater political agenda at play here. Nobody on the SC is happy at Deropia's absence, and if they reappeared tomorrow I think all of us would be relieved and would drop support for a recall. We would very much prefer that Deropia retain the seat... but there is a job to do, and it's not getting done.
 
Leniency was not just shown for Vice Delegates, but even for delegates - a role which has not become more vital in recent years.

I have no objection to recalls in principle, but the undue haste with which this has been brought to the RA and was pushed towards a vote seems petty at least, and vindictive/machiavallian at worst. As a community (not as a dry set of laws and procedures) we have generally, in the past, been better than that.

I do not know Deropia and have never spoken to him. I am not asking for him any more or less than I would ask for any of you .... which is a decent chance to sort out real life and get back before the axe falls.
 
flemingovia:
I have no objection to recalls in principle, but the undue haste with which this has been brought to the RA and was pushed towards a vote seems petty at least, and vindictive/machiavallian at worst.



I do not know Deropia and have never spoken to him. I am not asking for him any more or less than I would ask for any of you .... which is a decent chance to sort out real life and get back before the axe falls.
Click to expand...
As the person who wrote the original and final draft of the recall motion that was posted, and the firebrand that have arguably been pushing it the hardest I would love for you to explain my petty and Machiavellian scheme to me. Because I don't know Dero, I've talked to a few times and he seemed like a nice person but I am doing exactly what I would hope people would do to me if I was in the seat of Delegate or Vice Delegate. And as I am running for Justice and have no intent to run for Vice Delegate if this comes to a special election there is certainly no "your own power" argument to make.

If its petty and vindictive then I have done a poor job by not having a grudge to settle, and if its Machiavellian he would be upset that I have set myself up where I could not benefit from my own actions.



My argument to that is that the timer for that started when he stopped talking with the SC. We gave him nearly a whole month (6/9-7/3) to give any response in any venue he wanted. But when you are posting on the forum, but ignoring messages that is willful ignoring. What is the acceptable amount of time?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top