The North Pacific v. JAL

Topid

Topid

TNPer
The court is scheduled to hear the arguments about the complaint filed by the AG here today, September 6, 2011.

Presiding over the case shall be Chief Justice FALCONKATS and Justices Govindia and Topid. The attorney general and prosecutor is Eluvatar. Flemgovia is representing the accused.

The defense has communicated its presence, are the other parties present for this hearing?

DO NOT post in this thread unless you are one of the above mentioned parties, or have been called to testify by the above parties AND your testimony has been deemed in-line with court rules by the Justices.

@Eluvatar and Flem, when you call your witnesses, please give an overview of why you call that person. There are court rules on who can testify certain things, and certain things that no one can testify. So we have to follow these rules and see to it that all testimony is relevant etc.
 
As stated above, the defence is ready, as we have been for some time. We have been lurking this thread on and off since its creation.

The normal way trials like this is for the prosecution to make opening statements outlining the charges and their basis. How would the chief justice like us to proceed?
 
Actually I believe the first thing that has to happen is that the Defense must present a plea.

Rules:
A - Once a plea is entered in a criminal proceeding, or a response to a complaint is filed in a civil proceeding, a period of time for the discovery of evidence and the compilation of witness testimony will commence.
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Should the Defense enter a plea, as I expect them to, forthwith, what shall the timetable for Discovery be?

The prosecution would prefer a period of at least three days, but would in no way object to a longer period, so long as we keep within the mandatory limit of 14.

During Discovery, the prosecution would prefer to interview and/or cross-examine witnesses with as little formality as possible.
 
Mr. Attorney General, can you please tell us what the defendant is being charged with?

Mr. Flemingovia, once the Attorney General has made his charges, how would your client like to plead?

Once we get the formal listing of charges and the plea, the Attorney General will make his formal operning statement to the court, followed by the Defence's Opening Statement.

You have three days (72 hours).
 
Your Honour, the trial was due to start today, and the prosecution signified their willingness to abide by the date. Why is three days being allowed simply to state the charges my client is accused of? Surely they should be ready to post immediately.

The new rules are supposed to move trials along swiftly. Three days to state the charges is the antithesis of this.
 
I would also add, because I am unclear, whether this hearing will also consider the complaint made on behalf of my client on August 16th against Felasia concerning the rejection of my client's application to join the regional assembly.

Will this complaint be dealt with in this trial, or will there be a seperate hearing? If it is to be dealt with in this trial, then who is in the dock, JAL or Felasia? If it is not to be dealt with in this hearing, does the court intend to set a date to hear my client's complaint?
 
I'd answer that question Flem, but I'm a little confused about it myself. I think that is a separate hearing but I'm not sure.
 
flemingovia:
Your Honour, the trial was due to start today, and the prosecution signified their willingness to abide by the date. Why is three days being allowed simply to state the charges my client is accused of? Surely they should be ready to post immediately.

The new rules are supposed to move trials along swiftly. Three days to state the charges is the antithesis of this.
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The trial is starting today, hence this thread.

Due to time zone differences, and the fact that people have busy IRL schedules, the date was given for each side to post what was requested above.

I expect Eluvatar will hopefully be responsive, seeing as he is the AG, and the complaint against Felasia will be done in a separate case, unless the Chief Justice wants both dealt with here.
 
While the prosecution awaits word from the Court on the small matter of whether Discovery procedure will be followed, there is the matter of what the defendant is charged with.

To clarify the Attorney General's original complaint:

Complaint:
It has been brought to my attention that John Ashcroft Land, leader of the Poo Dynasty, was also leader of Durkadurkiranistan II. Durkadurkiranistan II of course illegally seized the Delegacy and ejected hundreds of innocent nations without warning, notification, or cause.

John Ashcroft Land broke his Regional Assembly oath when he did these actions, and in this post he describes them and his motivations in detail, under the name "The Poo Dynasty". Recently, John Ashcroft Land reapplied to the Regional Assembly, listing his nation as "The Poo Dynasty".

It would not be beneficial to the security of the North Pacific to admit him to the Regional Assembly, and he has not been charged with these crimes in our courts. It is time to do so.

I do not believe I will need longer than a week to gather additional evidence for this case. I expect evidence to include RMB logs, possibly screenshots from the time period submitted by witnesses, links to forum posts on this forum and others, as well as testimony from persons who witnessed the events.

I would suggest a schedule of interviews, open to the defense and the court, between the Attorney General's office and witnesses on IRC on Friday and Saturday between 0100 and 0300 UTC, if this is acceptable to the Court as valid under the Court Rules.
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To clarify, then, specifically what statutes are involved in this complaint:

1. The Defendant, under the name Durkadurkiranistan II did, without being requested authorized or empowered to do so, seize the Delegacy of the North Pacific region. In cases of emergency, it is understood that some actions are understandable and permitted in seeking to restore a non-emergency situation, under clause 11 of the Bill of Rights. However, in such a case one would expect the acting Delegate to seek to restore constitutional democratic government. The prosecution will argue that the defendant had no such intentions and did not act to restore constitutional, democratic governance. Therefore the prosecution will argue that the taking of the delegacy itself was not a (permitted) action of a citizen seeking to help the region but the action of an opportunist seeking personal entertainment, and therefore was a violation of Constitutional law on the Delegacy.

2. The Defendant did perform sedition (as defined by TNP Law 22) to undermine the government of the North Pacific.

3. The Defendant's mass ejection actions make them ineligible for membership in the Regional Assembly under TNP Law 28's ban on the threat or use of force in a manner unsanctioned.

It is not the place of the Attorney General to argue whether or not these crimes were heinous or immoral. Only that they were crimes, that they violated the rules we as a region had come to agree to. It is a staple of democratic society that we agree together to what should be done. We allow various actors various levels of discretion, but our rules quite clearly forbade the actions involved and regardless of how entertaining they may have been, regardless of whether it might have been beneficial to the region to adopt them. It is not this Court's place to decide those questions. Neither is it the place of the Attorney General's office.

The Attorney General's office hopes that it will be permitted to prosecute following the rules it is presented with by the Court.
 
Topid:
Given the fact that our AG is no longer a member of the RA does that change his role as AG?
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I am obliged by statute to continue to prosecute this case. Unless of course the Court wants to foster this duty on someone else, by some alternate interpretation of the law?
 
Your Honours,

My client pleads not guilty to these charges.

My Client, JAL, has had a long history in TNP. He has been part of this region for over five years and he and I have fought alongside one another many times in defence of this region against aggressors from within and aggressors foreign – most noticeably in the Pixiedance war where JAL served with distinction. He has also served in government positions in this region, for example as minister of Culture and Minister of Arts and Entertainment. From time to time he has also committed grievous wrongs against this region, which have made us bitter opponents. The prosecution has used these past wrongs as the basis of their charges against my client.

The defence denies none of these historical accusations. The past actions of my client are matters of public record. He is a mercurial, capricious character, and to be honest the region would be brave indeed to trust him with high office.

But this court hearing does not stem from him seeking high office. All he is asking is the chance to serve the region as a member of the Regional Assembly. There are many who have previously been in opposition to the constitutional government who have been given this chance without harassment. Some have gone on to serve the region with dignity and distinction, such as Dalimbar, a former Rogue who was recently elected delegate. All my client is asking for is a similar chance.

But instead his application to the regional assembly, originally made in jest but followed up in earnest, has been stonewalled by the government, and in order to legitimise this denial of a basic right, he has been slapped with this treason charge out of simple political expediency. Were it not for his RA application, he would not be on trial now. This is not a quest for justice, it is a political show trial. The timing of this stonewall is, to say the least, unfortunate – coming just before an election cycle, preventing my client from voting in the election.

The defence contends that in this instance the office speaker and the office of the Attorney General have not acted in a fair and even handed manner. In short, for whatever reason, JAL has been singled out.

The defence intends to call two witnesses to demonstrate that the North Pacific does not always act in a fair way, devoid of personal animosity. We ask the court to call to the stand Govindia, who has been barred from the North Pacific’s irc channel. We also ask the court to call Limitless Events, who has been barred from this forum and from the Regional Assembly. These witnesses do not have a direct bearing on this case, but their testimony will prove that justice in TNP is not always even handed.

The defence then intends to call former rogue delegates and their supporters to the stand in order to demonstrate that, in many instances, TNP has given those with a shady past a second chance. We wish to call Gracius Maximus, Dalimbar, Westwind, Emperor Matthius and Shoeless Joe. Their testimony will demonstrate beyond doubt one of the proudest facets of TNP society … our willingness to give people a second chance…. Unless, that is, your name is John Ashcroft Land.


Once this point has been proven, the question will remain as to why my client has been singled out for this treatment? The Defence will call Felasia, Eluvatar and Grosseschnauser to bring evidence as to the events surrounding the refusal of my client’s RA application and his arrest on the charge of treason, and the reasons for the actions they took.

Finally, there will remain the question as to whether these officials acted constitutionally, whether my client’s human rights have been violated, and whether there is any basis for these charges under TNP law. The defence will contend that the constitutional law which is the bedrock of the Prosecution’s case is, under the current wording of the law, only binding on those who have taken the RA oath, andtherefore are no basis for prosecution of my client or the denial of his RA application. Drawing on the research done by Greater PeterStan in the Peanuts Gallery thread, we will show that the wording of the constitution and legal code the charges brought against my client will not stand scrutiny.

Your honour, in any trial it is not the accused who is under inspection, but the legal system under which the accused is tried. Is it fair? Is it even-handed? Is it proportionate? Is it vindictive, cruel or unusual? The defence will contend that justice is not being served by this trial, and that my client should be admitted to the Regional Assembly of TNP, preferably with his approval backdated to his application so that he can vote in the election.
 
The defence is of the opinion that if it quacks and waddles, it is probably a duck.

However, we are happy to strike the word "Treason" and insert the words "the charges that the Prosecution could come up with".

Now that pleas and opening statements have been made, could the Chief Justice let us know how he wishes the prosecution and defence to proceed?
 
We ask the court to call to the stand Govindia, who has been barred from the North Pacific’s irc channel.
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Request denied, Counsel Flemingovia. Current TNP Court Law prohibits Justices from being called as witnesses.

Mr. Attonery General Eluvatar, please summarise, exactly, what the defendant is being charged with. Violations of what laws and/or clauses of laws? Please be specific.

Have the opening statements been completed?
 
Eluvatar:
To clarify, then, specifically what statutes are involved in this complaint:

1. The Defendant, under the name Durkadurkiranistan II did, without being requested authorized or empowered to do so, seize the Delegacy of the North Pacific region. In cases of emergency, it is understood that some actions are understandable and permitted in seeking to restore a non-emergency situation, under clause 11 of the Bill of Rights. However, in such a case one would expect the acting Delegate to seek to restore constitutional democratic government. The prosecution will argue that the defendant had no such intentions and did not act to restore constitutional, democratic governance. Therefore the prosecution will argue that the taking of the delegacy itself was not a (permitted) action of a citizen seeking to help the region but the action of an opportunist seeking personal entertainment, and therefore was a violation of Constitutional law on the Delegacy.

2. The Defendant did perform sedition (as defined by TNP Law 22) to undermine the government of the North Pacific.

3. The Defendant's mass ejection actions make them ineligible for membership in the Regional Assembly under TNP Law 28's ban on the threat or use of force in a manner unsanctioned.

It is not the place of the Attorney General to argue whether or not these crimes were heinous or immoral. Only that they were crimes, that they violated the rules we as a region had come to agree to. It is a staple of democratic society that we agree together to what should be done. We allow various actors various levels of discretion, but our rules quite clearly forbade the actions involved and regardless of how entertaining they may have been, regardless of whether it might have been beneficial to the region to adopt them. It is not this Court's place to decide those questions. Neither is it the place of the Attorney General's office.

The Attorney General's office hopes that it will be permitted to prosecute following the rules it is presented with by the Court.
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To further clarify the clarification.

1. The Defendant did illegally seize the Delegacy, violating the Constitution Article III Section 1 Clause 1, Article III Section 1 Clause 8, Article V Section 2 Clause 3.

2. The Defendant did perform Sedition as defined by TNP Law 22 Section 3.

3. The Defendant is ineligible for citizenship due to their contravention of the requirements of TNP Law 28 Article I Section One Clause 2 and 3.
 
Govindia:
Have the opening statements been completed?
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No, the prosecution has not completed an opening statement.

I am in a state of some confusion as to which procedural state the court is in at this time. Is Discovery to end in two hours? No formal plea was entered until 29 hours ago.

If it pleases the court, the prosecution will proceed to make an opening statement, under protest, within hours if and only if the prosecution is explicitly instructed that the rules are being overridden by court order.

Otherwise the prosecution would like to use the mandatory minimum of 43 further hours of Discovery to actually find available witnesses.
 
Your charging Mr. JAL with five violations of the law, correct? You should have made that clear in your post, Eluvatar.

And yes, you have 43 more hours.
 
Also I've edited the topic title to fit A. who we're actually trying, as it's irrelevant to mention JAL's other identities and B. to fit it in line with more international standards (i.e. United States v. White, etc., Crown v. Smith, etc.)
 
The defendant is charged with three criminal acts. The criminality of the first act is simply a complex matter.
 
Govindia:
We ask the court to call to the stand Govindia, who has been barred from the North Pacific’s irc channel.
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Request denied, Counsel Flemingovia. Current TNP Court Law prohibits Justices from being called as witnesses.

Mr. Attonery General Eluvatar, please summarise, exactly, what the defendant is being charged with. Violations of what laws and/or clauses of laws? Please be specific.

Have the opening statements been completed?
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With respect, the current TNP rules prevent the judge who is presiding to be a witness;


Rule 9. Judge or Counsel as Witness.
A - The judge presiding at the trial may not testify in that trial as a witness.
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My understanding is that the judge presiding is the chief justice. Am I wrong?
 
point of order.

The Chief justice has decreed that this one hearing will consider both the charges against my client, which are of an historic nature, pertaining to alleged actions months ago, and at the same time consider the legality of the denial of his RA application, which is on the basis of there being evidence that he is a present security threat to the region.

We ask the court for guidance as to how the trial is to be structured to consider these two separate issues. Do we consider them both at the same time? sequentially? can questions be put to the witnesses on both these issues at once, or must they be recalled?

Thank you in advance for clarification.
 
flemingovia:
Govindia:
We ask the court to call to the stand Govindia, who has been barred from the North Pacific’s irc channel.
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Request denied, Counsel Flemingovia. Current TNP Court Law prohibits Justices from being called as witnesses.

Mr. Attonery General Eluvatar, please summarise, exactly, what the defendant is being charged with. Violations of what laws and/or clauses of laws? Please be specific.

Have the opening statements been completed?
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With respect, the current TNP rules prevent the judge who is presiding to be a witness;


Rule 9. Judge or Counsel as Witness.
A - The judge presiding at the trial may not testify in that trial as a witness.
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My understanding is that the judge presiding is the chief justice. Am I wrong?
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We are all overseeing the case, so I believe none of us may be called as a witness.

Again, request is denied unless I am overruled by the Chief Justice.

Both issues are going to be considered, so plan accordingly.
 
We await the chief justice's ruling on this, when he wakes up.

We still ask for guidance as to how this one hearing intends to consider two seperate complaints, one dealing with the Speaker's denial of my client's RA application, and one dealing with the alleged actions of my client against the region several months ago.

The defence regards it as prejudicial to the request for review filed on behalf of my client on 16th August that this issue is considered at a hearing where he is in the dock on serious criminal charges.

What we asked for a month ago was a simple legal review of the actions of the Speaker of the RA. The Chief Justice stated on 21st August that he had heard sufficient arguments to make that review on 23rd August.

It is unnecessary and prejudicial to bundle that constitutional issue up with a seperate criminal trial. We ask the Chief Justice (where IS he, by the way?) to untangle these issues and give a legal review on the constitutional validity of my client's RA application.
 
As far as a Justice not being called as a witness is upheld due to the fact that cannot have a justice as a witness then come back and oversee the Trial.
 
The Prosecution would like to submit the below electronic evidence:

Exhibit A: The North Pacific Regional History
URL: http://www.nationstates.net/page=region_history/region=the_north_pacific

Exhibit A at Sat Sep 10 22:48 UTC 2011:
History: The North Pacific
« Back to The North Pacific
Major Events

* 109 days ago: Embassy established between The North Pacific and Equinox.
* 164 days ago: Embassy established between 10000 Islands and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between South Pacific and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between Conservadom and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between Laurentia and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between NationStates and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between Free Thought and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between Global Right Alliance and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between The South and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy cancelled between Guanxi and The North Pacific.
* 167 days ago: Embassy established between The West Pacific and The North Pacific.
* 168 days ago: Embassy established between Lazarus and The North Pacific.
* 172 days ago: Embassy established between The North Pacific and The Rejected Realms.
* 172 days ago: Embassy established between The North Pacific and The East Pacific.
* 173 days ago: Embassy established between South Pacific and The North Pacific.
* 173 days ago: Embassy established between The South Pacific and The North Pacific.
* 173 days ago: Embassy established between The Pacific and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between Conservadom and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between Laurentia and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between NationStates and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between Free Thought and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between Global Right Alliance and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between The South and The North Pacific.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between The North Pacific and Guanxi.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between The North Pacific and The Kodiak Republic.
* 174 days ago: Embassy established between The North Pacific and Eastern Islands of Dharma.
* 177 days ago: The Fairly Well-Liked Dominion of Blackshear41 elected WA Delegate (ending The Free State of Chodean Kal's reign after 57 days).
* 234 days ago: The Free State of Chodean Kal elected WA Delegate (ending The Understated Modesty of Flemingovia's reign after 90 days).
* 325 days ago: The Understated Modesty of Flemingovia elected WA Delegate (ending The Islamofascist Terror State of Blue Wolf II's reign).
* 326 days ago: The Islamofascist Terror State of Blue Wolf II elected WA Delegate (ending The Imperial Founder of Durkadurkiranistan II's reign after 17 days).
* 343 days ago: The Imperial Founder of Durkadurkiranistan II elected WA Delegate (ending The Beat of Groovistan's reign).
* 344 days ago: The Beat of Groovistan elected WA Delegate (ending The Empire of Ermarian's reign after 66 days).
* 1 year 45 days ago: The Empire of Ermarian elected WA Delegate (ending Shoeless joe's reign after 4 days).
* 1 year 50 days ago: Shoeless joe elected WA Delegate (ending The Cola Wars Veteran of New Kervoskia's reign after 140 days).
* 1 year 191 days ago: The Cola Wars Veteran of New Kervoskia elected WA Delegate.
* 1 year 191 days ago: Durkadurkiranistan ceased to exist, ending a reign of 155 days.
* 1 year 346 days ago: Durkadurkiranistan elected WA Delegate.


Longest Serving WA DelegateThe Rebirth of Sydia: 218 days.
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Exhibit B: “On The North Pacific Provisional Authority"
URL: http://twp.nosync.org/forums/?showtopic=9167

Exhibit B at Sat Sep 10 22:48 UTC 2011:
On The North Pacific Provisional Authority
#1 The Poo Dynasty

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* Mr Lovable

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:50 PM
To set the stage, Ermarian became delegate after 'liberating' the North Pacific from Shoeless Joe three months ago. Understand that I use the term 'liberating' extremely loosely because Shoeless Joe seemed to genuinely care about the region and was perfectly willing to work with it. Ermarian was an engaging delegate for several weeks but basically abandoned his nation by September, at which point I created Durkadurkiranistan II.

Almost immediately I had Durka join the World Assembly and begin swapping aggressively. I came within ten endorsements of Ermarian before Dyr Nasad wrote and sent an incredibly effective unendorsement telegram against me. Obviously this was not terribly difficult to do; I had been delegate before and ejected nearly two thousand nations from the region that time. I countered with an unendorsement telegram of my own, and Ermarian's endorsement count plummeted by 20-25 endorsements. This enabled the unknown Groovistan became delegate for twelve hours but I quickly surpassed him to become delegate.

By this point I began to plan a change of government. My core cabinet consisted of my RL friends but there were three or four NSers in the periphery. The original plan was to replace the old government with another democratic (but less bureaucratic) one, but I scrapped that idea when it became clear I wouldn't be able to hold onto the region for more than a week or two. At this point the idea shifted to being able to make the largest mark possible while I still could - which meant mass ejections and the like. For the most part the NS part of my cabinet didn't approve; some came to me privately with their resignations - which was fine with me - while others had to be found out and expelled. They were on the periphery for a reason.

I began what seemed to be just another purge last Thursday, but this time I closely monitored my influence levels throughout. Using the nation West Frisia as a barometer it became apparent after 500-600 ejections that Durka2's minimal influence was beginning to drain measurably. I ceased the purge with about 90% of my influence intact, struck down the old government and replaced it with my own - the North Pacific Provisional Authority (s15.invisionfree.invalid/nppa). My first policy was to eject all nations created in TNP accepting them back only after they registered on our new regional forum. This policy was termed 'Project Purge'.

Project Purge was the centerpiece of the Provisional Authority and it rubbed most gameplayers the wrong way. I received close to a hundred pieces of hate mail in my telegram inbox. All in all I thought it was hilariously amusing. Many called me a 'griefer' as if that term even means anything under the current rule set. I guess that makes me like an onsite forum destroyer. *rolls eyes* There is quite a bit of hate mail and hate posts on the NPPA forums under the free speech subforum (visible to guests) but much of it is likely unsafe for work so be warned.

With such terrible publicity my endorsement count began to fall rapidly. Blue Wolf came quite close but I was able to ban just enough low influence natives to prevent him from surpassing my native endorsement count. There were three invasions. The first two were complete failures given that I was sitting right there at the computer. The third attempt was successful since it was during the morning update while I was at work. Prior to that morning update I was handing off my nation to a cabinet member to cover the mornings, but he wasn't available on the liberation morning, or most weekday mornings actually. In any event I believe I would have been surpassed by native endorsements within the next 24 hours and I would have been toppled anyway. I was running on almost zero influence by this point and was hence unable to ban native WA's at that point.

All in all there were about 800-900 casualties/ejections, including several dozen banned WA's. This was done on basically a two week's worth of influence. I tried to make the most of it. I for one had fun.

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#2 Saint Flemingovia

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 10:12 PM
I didn't notice the old government being "struck down". Near as I can tell they carried on as if you were a minor irritatant who would soon be gone - a bit like acne.

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#3 Fearless Leader

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 03:06 AM
Thanks. That was a most interesting read.

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#4 Darkesia

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 03:52 AM
I believe the only way to get rid of the entrenched "golden circle" of old school players who run the feeders (yes, I'm aware that I am talking about myself as well), is to strip the region down to nothing and somehow manage to let complete chaos reign for at least two weeks or until an unknown or at least newish nation steps forward. This, of course means we old farts would have to swallow our pride and egos and cooperate by staying out of it.

And that's why I think feeder governments aren't going to change any time soon, no matter how many coups we stage or attempts to stir up "the people." Our egos won't allow us to let it go. We worked damned hard to get things all safe and manageable.

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#5 BlackAdder

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:54 PM
Lulz. Successful coups are pure evil, humour and fanatically correct grammar. Out Nazi the Nazis. Older players make for the best material when they show up bent out of shape. See Great Bight.

So I've heard anyway. heh.

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#6 Eli

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* Wickedly Evil One

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 03:41 AM
pretty funny stuff I thought.

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#7 TAO

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* Administrator; Nobody of Importance; and a Guardian of Secrets

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 06:52 PM
How many more banjections need to occur before you can bump Pierconium for the title?

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#8 The Poo Dynasty

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* Mr Lovable

* Group: Regional Assembly
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Posted 18 November 2010 - 01:20 PM
TAO, on Nov 3 2010, 07:52 PM, said:
How many more banjections need to occur before you can bump Pierconium for the title?

A lot unfortunately. 2500+ I think. So that's something like two more coups to go.

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#9 The Poo Dynasty

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* Mr Lovable

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 01:54 PM
Darkesia, on Oct 22 2010, 04:52 AM, said:
I believe the only way to get rid of the entrenched "golden circle" of old school players who run the feeders (yes, I'm aware that I am talking about myself as well), is to strip the region down to nothing and somehow manage to let complete chaos reign for at least two weeks or until an unknown or at least newish nation steps forward. This, of course means we old farts would have to swallow our pride and egos and cooperate by staying out of it.

And that's why I think feeder governments aren't going to change any time soon, no matter how many coups we stage or attempts to stir up "the people." Our egos won't allow us to let it go. We worked damned hard to get things all safe and manageable.

Agreed. The influence aristocracy over at TNP will never allow for any long term changes even if they are democratic in nature. Any 'rogue' will be up against scores of old farts not to mention the entire defender community. The morning update makes it even more difficult for those of us with real lives/jobs.

The governments that controlled the feeders at the beginning of influence will control them forever. I guess that was intended.
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Exhibit C: TNP Delegacy; change is close to happening
URL: http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/topic/6733825/1/

Exhibit C at Sat Sep 10 22:53 UTC 2011:
TNP Delegacy; change is close to happening
Topic Started: Sep 30 2010, 06:11 PM (536 Views)
Westwind Sep 30 2010, 06:11 PM Post #1

Echoes



Posts:
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Member
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FYI, the Delegacy of TNP will likely change hands shortly, regardless of the situation with elections. While Ermarian has been inactive and has failed to maintain the health of the delegacy through trading endorsements, others have been trading endorsements vigorously. There are also unendorsement campaigns going on.

As it currently stands, Groovistan or Durkadurkiranistan are most likely to become our next delegate, but the situation is in flux. There currently are 215 WA nations in the region.

Nations with over 50 endorsements:

1: ermarian 90
2: groovistan 86
3: durkadurkiranistan_ii 84
4: yaorozu 81
5: kitabo 74
5: herzliyya 74
7: vectra_octavian 73
8: blue_wolf_ii 71
9: grosseschnauzer 69
9: unterwasserseestaat 69
11: ilvsivm_ii 63
11: moany_old_gits 63
11: andromeda_islands 63
11: zemnaya_svoboda 63
15: novare_res 62
15: former_english_colony 62
17: pasargad 61
17: gioto 61
19: whereisthatistan 60
20: new_allied_australia 59
21: oneofakynd 56
21: great_bights_mum 56
23: andrapos 55
24: laibach 52

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John Ashcroft Land Sep 30 2010, 08:22 PM Post #2

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There are at least three unendorsement campaigns against Ermarian, and two against me. We are both losing endorsements steadily so I expect Blue Wolf (who is vigorously endorsement swapping) or Groovistan to be our next delegate.

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Moany Old Gits Sep 30 2010, 09:22 PM Post #3

Woooooooooo



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best we pick a delegate as soon as

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flemingovia Sep 30 2010, 10:18 PM Post #4

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If the region is couped again, i think that will be pretty much me done with the game. While I am keen to see TNP revived and more active, I am not prepared to do another war. Been there, done that.

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Groovistan Sep 30 2010, 10:59 PM Post #5

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I'm fairly certain I've never posted on this board before, so let me first say: Hello. Secondly, as is probably obvious, I'm not nearly active enough in this game to be a delegate, either good or bad. I really just like endorsing other nations. So if the worst-case scenario should come to pass and I end up in the driver's seat, I'm not going to stand in the way of any rightful delegate.

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Westwind Sep 30 2010, 11:00 PM Post #6

Echoes



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Thanks for the post Groovistan, I appreciate it. It does look like you'll have the delegacy shortly.

The count is now:

Ermarian - 89
Groovistan - 87
Durkadurkiranistan II - 80
Edited by Westwind, Sep 30 2010, 11:01 PM.


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Blue Wolf II Oct 1 2010, 04:58 AM Post #7

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Groove now has more endorsements, come the noon update, he'll have. Hail the new overlord!

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John Ashcroft Land Oct 1 2010, 06:19 PM Post #8

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Hail Groovistan!

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Westwind Oct 1 2010, 08:48 PM Post #9

Echoes



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And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round...

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Dyr Nasad Oct 2 2010, 01:26 AM Post #10





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Groov is a good caretaker until we finish the elections, considering that he's promised to step aside (and if he wanted it, he would have tried long ago)

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The Palindromic Land Oct 2 2010, 01:28 AM Post #11

of Fodnal Cimordnilap Eht



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So why did Unibot and JAL unendorse him? Doesn't that mean JAL has the most?

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Winter Vacationers Oct 2 2010, 01:35 AM Post #12





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Life is interesting. :)

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Dyr Nasad Oct 2 2010, 01:44 AM Post #13





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The Palindromic Land
Oct 2 2010, 01:28 AM
So why did Unibot and JAL unendorse him? Doesn't that mean JAL has the most?
Yes..and after Groov's post here, this cant be called anything other than a coup

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Todd McCloud Oct 2 2010, 02:57 AM Post #14





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Well, so much for a transition

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Grosseschnauzer Oct 2 2010, 03:26 AM Post #15

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Grosseschnauzer
The problem is a series of Delegates who don't really want to be Delegate; I've never seen such a string of Delegates disappearing as we've had the last few months.
We need to get past the elections, and move forward. I'm sure Flem, Elu and I would like to archive some of the executive branch subforums, as many of them aren't being used, but since each Delegate has the authority to structure the Executive Branch according to their liking, it makes it hard for Admin to read the minds of absentee delegates.

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Blue Wolf II Oct 2 2010, 04:32 AM Post #16

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Anarchy in the NP! It's coming sometime, it might be!

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John Ashcroft Land Oct 2 2010, 04:47 AM Post #17

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Elections will still happen as scheduled so chillax Dyr.
Edited by John Ashcroft Land, Oct 2 2010, 04:54 AM.


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New Kervoskia Oct 3 2010, 06:40 PM Post #18

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Yay Jal!

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Westwind Oct 15 2010, 08:25 PM Post #19

Echoes



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And updated endorsement list:

Nations: 1755, UN:218

1: durkadurkiranistan_ii 113
2: blue_wolf_ii 93
3: groovistan 89
4: kitabo 88
5: grosseschnauzer 87
6: yaorozu 84
6: herzliyya 84
8: vectra_octavian 82
9: former_english_colony 78
9: ermarian 78
11: oneofakynd 72
12: unterwasserseestaat 71
13: andromeda_islands 70
14: pasargad 69
14: flemingovia 69
16: moany_old_gits 67
17: ilvsivm_ii 66
17: siradetes 66
17: zemnaya_svoboda 66
20: whereisthatistan 62
21: novare_res 61
22: new_allied_australia 60
23: great_bights_mum 59
24: laibach 57
25: andrapos 56
26: wisconsota 54
26: span 54
28: new_greasbyland 53
28: fengate 53
30: liononim 52
31: halinopia 51
31: space_nomad_people 51
33: ozmium 50
33: enif 50
33: west_frisia 50
33: impenyer 50



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Joshua Oct 19 2010, 04:36 PM Post #20

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BW is now the WA Delegate, and JAL has been deposed. I am assuming we should focus on getting Flem into the WA Delegate seat by next update?
Click to expand...



Exhibit D: “The Regional Election October 2010; Cast votes for candidates here"
URL: http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/topic/6734131/3/

Exhibit D at Sat Sep 10 22:57 UTC 2011:
The Regional Election October 2010; Cast votes for candidates here
Topic Started: Oct 1 2010, 10:58 PM (1,026 Views)
The Voting Booth Oct 10 2010, 10:10 PM Post #41

The Voting Booth



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Blue Wolf II is declared vice delegate with an un-assailable lead of 11 votes

All voting is over done, finished kaput.

Rum all round :P

*resigns as Election Commissioner, burns down office (for I have one), leaves note for successor explaining that there is no money left*

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Blue Wolf II Oct 10 2010, 10:25 PM Post #42

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Hawt.

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FALCONKATS Oct 11 2010, 09:14 PM Post #43

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thanks you for your votes for CLO

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The Palindromic Land Oct 12 2010, 02:34 AM Post #44

of Fodnal Cimordnilap Eht



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So, when does the WFE start reflecting the change in delegates?

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Moany Old Gits Oct 12 2010, 06:31 PM Post #45

Woooooooooo



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Soon hopefully - then Flemingovia can burn up all the laws :D

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Dalimbar Oct 13 2010, 07:40 AM Post #46

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The Palindromic Land
Oct 12 2010, 02:34 AM
So, when does the WFE start reflecting the change in delegates?
When Flem overtakes JAL in endorsements, then the WFE changes. At present, JAL has 110 endorsements, and Flem has 62. For additional comparison, Vice Delegate-elect BW has 86. So, depending on the rate Flem is endorsing, and if JAL starts to slowly decline in endos, then the transition should only take a few days. Yet... history has demonstrated that in many cases TNP transitions aren't as fast as we want them to be.

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Mr.Gaunt Oct 13 2010, 09:07 PM Post #47

very fluffy



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Dalimbar
Oct 13 2010, 07:40 AM
..., then the transition should only take a few days. Yet... history has demonstrated that in many cases TNP transitions aren't as fast as we want them to be.
Oh yes, considering JAL is still endorsing.

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The Palindromic Land Oct 13 2010, 09:08 PM Post #48

of Fodnal Cimordnilap Eht



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Also, as I was getting at, the WFE still says "Please endorse The Commonwealth of Durkadurkiranistan II to ensure a stable and secure democracy."

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Blue Wolf II Oct 14 2010, 12:51 AM Post #49

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We can always encourage nations to unendorse JAL and I'll continue to endoswap if it comes to that. Fairly sure I could surpass him with minimal effort.

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James2spooky Oct 14 2010, 08:07 AM Post #50

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Interesting. Well, it's good to see that TNP election is up and running again like it used to.

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Moany Old Gits Oct 14 2010, 06:19 PM Post #51

Woooooooooo



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Usually the outgoing delegate changes the WFE to endorse the new delegate which is what Palindromic land means. JAL isn't doing that yet - maybe he's busy.

Anyway it doesn't matter - Flemingovia can endorse his way there.

*Prepares camp chair and rum for coming inferno* :D

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The Palindromic Land Oct 15 2010, 03:09 AM Post #52

of Fodnal Cimordnilap Eht



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Well, there's an inferno, but I don't know that's it what you expected.

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Moany Old Gits Oct 15 2010, 07:54 PM Post #53

Woooooooooo



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LOL so I see :D

Never mind - there won't be too many nations left but still - we'll just endorse Flemingovia as usual.

(Its all a game and I hope no-one is too upset)
:rofl:
Click to expand...



Exhibit E: JAL's Unendorse TG

URL: http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/topic/6737448/1/

Exhibit E at Sat Sep 10 23:00 UTC 2011:
JAL's Unendorse TG


Topic Started: Oct 16 2010, 10:25 PM (804 Views)


Blue Wolf II


Oct 16 2010, 10:25 PM Post #1



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Durkadurkiranistan II

I noticed you have endorsed Blue Wolf II. I urge you to unendorse him for the following reasons.

- He is not the elected delegate of The North Pacific. He is attempting to carry out an illegal coup against the elected government and your endorsement is helping him to take over.

- He has been delegate before, but while he was delegate he didn't vote on a single WA resolution. He ignored the will of the region.

- His inactivity as delegate caused the region serious harm. He hardly even logged into his nation, never posted on the Civil HQ, and never made any effort to interact with the nations of the North Pacific. The only thing he did in his two months as delegate was to illegally ban dissenting nations from the region.

This region (The North Pacific) is supposed to be a nurturing ground for the game. Not for someone else to play king of the hill. For the sake of the game and the nations of the North Pacific, please do not endorse him.


I laughed, hard.



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Dalimbar


Oct 16 2010, 10:41 PM Post #2



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Isn't that adorable?



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Pasargad


Oct 16 2010, 10:43 PM Post #3











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Pasargad




so sweet:)



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Blue Wolf II


Oct 16 2010, 10:48 PM Post #4



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He is a master at artful lies, I'll give him that.



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Dyr Nasad


Oct 16 2010, 11:00 PM Post #5











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And I :lol: at the people who actually voted for JAL..



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sedge


Oct 16 2010, 11:01 PM Post #6



§







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Blue Wolf II

Oct 16 2010, 10:48 PM

He is a master at artful lies, I'll give him that.

Aw, don't do yourself down. I'm sure you can better him... :P



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Blue Wolf II


Oct 16 2010, 11:04 PM Post #7



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Aww, you do care Sedge! ^_^



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flemingovia


Oct 16 2010, 11:09 PM Post #8



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How long before JAL starts inviting people in to prop him up, do you think?

And how long after that before those he invites in realise that he is a plonker and leave in disgust?



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Dyr Nasad


Oct 16 2010, 11:20 PM Post #9











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flemingovia

Oct 16 2010, 11:09 PM

How long before JAL starts inviting people in to prop him up, do you think?

And how long after that before those he invites in realise that he is a plonker and leave in disgust?

the second may very easily happen before the first



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sedge


Oct 16 2010, 11:23 PM Post #10



§







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Blue Wolf II

Oct 16 2010, 11:04 PM

Aww, you do care Sedge! ^_^

If you're short of ideas...

Quote:

I noticed you have endorsed Durkadurkiranistan II. I urge you to unendorse him for the following reasons.

- That kitten in his flag may look cute, but what he doesn't tell you is that he killed and stuffed it.

- He thinks the Chilean miners should have "dug themselves out".

- In his election campaign, he claimed he "was not a witch". This is not true.

This region (The North Pacific) is supposed to be a nurturing ground for the game. Not for someone else to play king of the hill. For the sake of the game and the nations of the North Pacific, please do not endorse him.





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Blue Wolf II


Oct 16 2010, 11:41 PM Post #11



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Kinky.



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HEM


Oct 17 2010, 03:39 AM Post #12



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Yeah...this is a bad coup...



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Grosseschnauzer


Oct 17 2010, 04:50 AM Post #13



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Grosseschnauzer




JAL seems to forget that there are enough WA members in TNP with more influence than he can spare to use tha will gradually endo Flem and BW as the elected Delegate and Vice Delegate, and unendorse him that he is bound to fail badly.

And If BW was ever Delegate of TNP, how come I don't remember it?



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Blue Wolf II


Oct 17 2010, 05:10 AM Post #14



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We must have all been on vacation when it happened.



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Felasia


Oct 17 2010, 05:58 AM Post #15



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I was cause I don't remember it either. :P



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flemingovia


Oct 17 2010, 12:11 PM Post #16



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Thus JAL's reputation as a twat is cemented.



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HEM


Oct 17 2010, 01:12 PM Post #17



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Maybe Blue Wolf operates under an alias, and only the wise JAL truly knows both of his personas?



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Blue Wolf II


Oct 17 2010, 04:31 PM Post #18



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Shh, don't tell anyone but I'm really UPS Rail. But really, tell no one, it's a secret ;)



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Democratic Donkeys


Oct 17 2010, 04:40 PM Post #19



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Oh ho ho, UPS Rail? Or should we say "Sir Paul"!! :o



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Westwind


Oct 17 2010, 04:41 PM Post #20



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It's about damn time you came back UPS Rail. Been waiting six years for you to get busy again ! Someone go wake up Great Bight.
Click to expand...



Exhibit F: Address to the Region

URL: http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/topic/6737037/1/#post-8015597

Exhibit F at Sat Sep 10 23:03 UTC 2011:
James2spooky


Oct 15 2010, 08:16 AM Post #5



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and er..something bad is happenning? a recent post at TNP's RMB:

2 hours ago The Commonwealth of Durkadurkiranistan II

Citizens,

Over the following weeks I will be setting various population goals for the region. Over time we become a squeaky-clean region consisting entirely of WA's and forum-goers by ejecting the rabble.

The current population aim is to have the region under 1500 nations by next Wednesday.

Have a nice day!


latest TNP's WFB:

Quote:

Welcome to the jungle!

Please endorse The Commonwealth of Durkadurkiranistan II to ensure a stable and prosperous region.

Announcing the North Pacific Provisional Authority and Project Purge. Our new forums are located here

All new nations created within the North Pacific are to be ejected from the region. Rejectees are welcome to return pending registration on the forum.

Adspam is prohibited and violators will be banned.





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Blue Wolf II


Oct 15 2010, 08:18 AM Post #6



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JAL being JAL.



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James2spooky


Oct 15 2010, 08:25 AM Post #7



TNP's Most Obnoxious







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there's a boost in TRR's population :lol:



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Dalimbar


Oct 15 2010, 09:02 AM Post #8



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It's a cute attempt, but with his level of influence, it won't last long. And BW is correct: this is merely JAL being JAL.



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Winter Vacationers


Oct 15 2010, 11:19 AM Post #9











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He also has a post on the Gameplay forum.

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=75604



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Grosseschnauzer


Oct 15 2010, 03:44 PM Post #10



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JAL really doesn't get it, does he? Such tactics end up hurting a feeder region such as ours, and it is just plain stupid. The problem for JAL is that those most likely to reject his behavior already have more influence than he does, and are experienced in dealing with rouges.



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Moany Old Gits


Oct 15 2010, 08:07 PM Post #11



Woooooooooo







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It'll be ok (I hope)

We'll carry on for a few days until it dies down.

Thanks Flem for your work cutting down the forums - sounds great :D



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Mr.Gaunt


Oct 15 2010, 08:47 PM Post #12



very fluffy







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Rogue delegate? :tb1:

This is the first time I really feel soooo much at home again after having returned a couple of days ago to the forum.



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Dalimbar


Oct 16 2010, 01:39 AM Post #13



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Good to be back, eh? :P Just like Shoeless Joe's miserable "coup" earlier this year, it won't last long. He uses the regular rhetoric that has been used by "rogues" since Great Bights time, yet he doesn't have it in him to go for the long haul. It's, in my opinion, disappointing. I want a refund, darn it!



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HEM


Oct 16 2010, 08:14 PM Post #14



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I thought the Union revolution was better :P



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Dalimbar


Oct 16 2010, 09:11 PM Post #15



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I still want a refund from that play!
Click to expand...
 
Objection to Exhibit E

The fact that my client sent out an unendorsement TG against Blue Wolf, who was not the elected delegate of TNP, was not a crime against TNP, and should not be entered as evidence. It is not pertinent to any of the charges.
 
FALCONKATS:
we will hear the charge one at a time during this trial.
Click to expand...
Which one first?

The legality of my client's exclusion from the RA is the simpler matter, and could be delayed several months by a lengthy and complex criminal trial.

Also the actions of a speaker have potential repercussions on RA applications of other TNP citizens, so it is best that any question of the Speaker's impartiality is of greater concern to the region than an alleged coup that happened nearly a year ago. Especially as that Speaker is running for delegate.

The defence petitions that this matter is considered by the court first.
 
My ruling on Exhibit E is Sustained and will not be able to be used as evidence but Exhibit A,B,C,D and F will be entered as evidence with no objections.
 
Well as far of the alleged coup there is no statues of limitations on bring someone for trial on these charges and as far of the Speaker's imparality is duly noted and your objection is noted. And due to the fact that they have not been elected as Delegate.
 
ummm... Ok I get that it is all noted.

The defence also does not contend that there is no statute of limitations on the charges levelled agaisnt my client.

But that still does not answer defence's request that the matter of the legality of the stonewalling of my client's RA application be the first thing before this hearing.

My client's alleged offences against the region have been holding for nearly a year now. Surely it will wait a few days for this other matter to be decided upon?
 
OOC: Apologies for the delay, was doing manual labour all day.

The Prosecution objects to the objection to Exhibit E!!

The law against Sedition makes no mention of "Delegate," and Blue Wolf II was the elected Vice Delegate. The prosecution intends to argue that the message in question was seditious in nature. The Act says:

[quote="TNP Law 22: Enumeration of Prohibited Acts]Section 3: Sedition
A - "Sedition" is defined as an intentional attempt on the official forums or within the NationStates region "The North Pacific" to incite the Nations of The North Pacific to revolt in a manner not sanctioned by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.[/quote]

By sending a multitude of messages asking nations to unendorse the Vice Delegate, assisting in the continued tenure of an illegal delegacy, the prosecution will argue that the defendant was performing sedition.

The Prosecution had not yet posted an opening statement as it anticipated that Discovery would not be uncontentious. It is as yet unclear what may be mentioned in this opening statement.
 
Elu, If you read the Chief Justice's remarks you will see that Exhibit E has been allowed. No need to get your knickers in a twist

The defence requests that we await ruling by the chief justice as to which matter will be heard by the court first before further statements are posted. There is an unseemly danger that the prosecution is hijacking the conduct of this trial by forging ahead as it sees fit.
 
FALCONKATS:
My ruling on Exhibit E is Sustained and will not be able to be used as evidence but Exhibit A,B,C,D and F will be entered as evidence with no objections.
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While the Prosecution would be happy to inhabit a world where that is what the Chief Justice said, we live in this one instead.
 
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