Embassy of The Pacific

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As I said, the matter is being investigated.. I am sure that the Pacific Senate will be kept informed by myself or the Prime Minister once we have some concrete information to go on.
 
The matter is under investigaion.

I will note however, that unless there's a way of resurrecting the dead from beyond the pale, we may never have sufficient information to ascertain what the facts are. And as a secularist, I don't expect that to happen.

All I can authoritatively state is that I never received any information about such an operation at the beginning of my first term, and I was not informed of such an operation of any point during my tenure as Prime Minister.

Any further formal statement will come from the Cabinet as a body.
 
:ph34r:

Mesian has stated that he came to The Pacific as an operative, for all intents and purposes. Your inability to track down those responsible for the NPIA does not absolve you from responsibility. You either take responsibility for the actions of the NPIA or you declare that it acted as a rogue under your umbrella.

Make no mistake, we shall not take lightly any pretense of inability to be accountable for treasonous activites against The Pacific.
 
The formal warrant was not actually issued. Such a warrant needed to be on file, and has now been formally issued.
 
The issuance of a warrant by the Pacific, has no legal standing within The North Pacific, in the absence of a treaty on extradiction, and there is no such treaty.

And i seriously doubt a diplomatic agreement will occur unless any citizen of The North Pacific is fully guaranteed all of the rights, protections and privileges contained in the Declaration of Rights of the Constitution of The North Pacific in any trial or trial-like proceeding in any other Region.
 
:ph34r:

Your constitution is binding only in your region. Do not presume to intrude your law into our internal affairs. Mesian has broken our laws; he freely admits this. He shall be tried under our law for treason.

However, you, as a government, as of yet, have chosen to ignore the actions of an NPIA agent who claims to have acted under instructions of that body. Either the NPIA is an arm of the TNP government or it is rogue. Which is it?

Either way, the government of TNP is responsible for its actions and stalling will not make this go away. Neither will ridiculous statements of violating our sovereignty still further by forcing your constitution upon us; Mesian is guaranteed to be treated like anyone accused of treason under our Civil Code.
 
With all due respect, Emperor, the powers that be in TNP are trying to elucidate this for ourselves at the present moment. Perhaps patience is not held highly in The Pacific, but it is, unfortunately, a necessity for this situation.

No one wants an inter-Pacific blowup. I imagine that when we find out, you'll find out, if not earlier.
 
Tour constitution is binding only in your region.
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I never said otherwise, I also said that in the absence of a treaty or agreement that preserves the civil liberties and protections of a citizen of The North Pacific, The North Pacific cannnot agree to extradiction. That is part of our law since our Constitutition requires us to preserve and protect those rights and liberties of a citizen of The North Pacific.

Do not presume to intrude your law into our internal affairs.
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But you presume to do just that as far as The North Pacific is concerned. Oh, that's right, you presumed to intrude your laws into another region just recently as in the case with your illegitimate intrusion into the Supreme Union.

Mesian has broken our laws; he freely admits this. He shall be tried under our law for treason.
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Sounds like you already made up your minds. So why have a second trial; you already tried him once, right? And imposed punishment by banning? (At least Gaspo's links postd in our forum imply as much.)

However, you, as a government, as of yet, have chosen to ignore the actions of an NPIA agent who claims to have acted under instructions of that body. Either the NPIA is an arm of the TNP government or it is rogue. Which is it?
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I have already placed the matter before the Cabinet, and they ill collective decide whether the information we have is sufficient to justify any sort of statement, and if so, what that statement will say. We are trying to determine the actual facts, instead of presuming them, as seems to be the practice in the Pacific.

Either way, the government of TNP is responsible for its actions and stalling will not make this go away.
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It will have to take whatever amount of time it takes. Your rantings and ravings will not speed up the matter, more likely it will slow things down. You'd best take the counsel of patience because The North Pacific is going to determine what the facts are, first.

Neither will ridiculous statements of violating our sovereignty still further by forcing your constitution upon us
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But you are more than willing and prepared to violate our sovereignty by your word and deeds (just as you did to the Supreme Union). All we have said is that The North Pacific will not agree to an extridition request that wold impinge upon the civil liberties and protections guaranteed to every citizen of The North Pacific. How you interpret that to be an intrusion in your internal affairs defies any form of logic.

Mesian is guaranteed to be treated like anyone accused of treason under our Civil Code
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That statement is illogical. If Mesian is not a citizen of the Pacific, then how can he even be accused of Treason?
 
Will you please get off the Supreme Union thing? It's like you're trying to get us into a conflict with The Pacific.

The fact of the matter is the Prime Minister has claimed that he has no idea what goes on in the NPIA at any given moment and thus has can not verify if this was an official NPIA action or not. The rest of his ranting is irrelevant and is not the official opinion of The North seeing as we don't have one concerning most of the above mentioned subjects.

We, the people and voice of The North are totally in the dark at the moment because our Constitution was set up so that the NPIA had no regulation other than internal and that of the Prime Minister. It's a flaw some have tried to correct in the past but were unsuccessful.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Will you please get off the Supreme Union thing? It's like you're trying to get us into a conflict with The Pacific.
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Why is such an idea so terrible submission is preferable to backbone? If conflict were the case, they wouldn't be able to do anything. Except, I dunno, subvert our democracy with a tyrannical coup or something.
 
I would rather have good relations with my Pacific bothers, from all feeders. I don't know what the NPO would do if we were at war with them or even just on their shit list and I really don't want to find out.
 
Upper Kirby:
Blue Wolf II:
Will you please get off the Supreme Union thing? It's like you're trying to get us into a conflict with The Pacific.
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Why is such an idea so terrible submission is preferable to backbone? If conflict were the case, they wouldn't be able to do anything. Except, I dunno, subvert our democracy with a tyrannical coup or something.
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That attitude is a poor one for any region, IMO. If we're going to aggrevate every region just because they can't harm us, then we'll be no better than people we apparantly disapprove of.
 
The incident with the Supreme Union is irrelevant. What The Pacific did or didn't should have no bearing on the legality of extradition. The two issues are not connected, unless we believe that a perverted version of "an eye for an eye" is a valid ideal of justice.

Here are the facts of the matter:
1) We are trying to figure out what happened. When we find out, so will you. Pushing us to find out the truth faster will accomplish nothing. In fact, it may simply further exacerbate already strained relations.
2) TNP has no extradition treaty with The Pacific. What you state as a demand, we see as a request from a fellow feeder. We may choose to vote to extradite, but that is our choice and not our legal obligation.
3) Mesian is already in The Pacific, testifying, making the matter of extradition moot except for stirring up trouble.

Here's how I see it. We're going to get to the bottom of this as fast as we can. The Pacific, in the meantime, would serve itself well if it would stop asking us to answer things that we are, as of yet, incapable of answering. Bug the proper leaders through the proper means, and do so diplomatically. Judging from the few details that have leaked through, it seems that there was likely to have been misconduct or negligence by TNP officials at some point. But we don't have the full story yet, and it does not serve the region well to fill in the holes with conjecture and wobbly claims. We'll get down to this and afterwards apologize for whatever demands an apology from the government; The Pacific will have its trial. People will be found responsible by either party, and TNP will likely take a strong look at its NPIA procedures to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again in the future.

There. The people responsible will be brought to justice, policies will be fixed, and all good things are restored without having to resort to fisticuffs.
 
Monte Ozarka:
The incident with the Supreme Union is irrelevant. What The Pacific did or didn't should have no bearing on the legality of extradition. The two issues are not connected, unless we believe that a perverted version of "an eye for an eye" is a valid ideal of justice.

Here are the facts of the matter:
1) We are trying to figure out what happened. When we find out, so will you. Pushing us to find out the truth faster will accomplish nothing. In fact, it may simply further exacerbate already strained relations.
2) TNP has no extradition treaty with The Pacific. What you state as a demand, we see as a request from a fellow feeder. We may choose to vote to extradite, but that is our choice and not our legal obligation.
3) Mesian is already in The Pacific, testifying, making the matter of extradition moot except for stirring up trouble.

Here's how I see it. We're going to get to the bottom of this as fast as we can. The Pacific, in the meantime, would serve itself well if it would stop asking us to answer things that we are, as of yet, incapable of answering. Bug the proper leaders through the proper means, and do so diplomatically. Judging from the few details that have leaked through, it seems that there was likely to have been misconduct or negligence by TNP officials at some point. But we don't have the full story yet, and it does not serve the region well to fill in the holes with conjecture and wobbly claims. We'll get down to this and afterwards apologize for whatever demands an apology from the government; The Pacific will have its trial. People will be found responsible by either party, and TNP will likely take a strong look at its NPIA procedures to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again in the future.

There. The people responsible will be brought to justice, policies will be fixed, and all good things are restored without having to resort to fisticuffs.
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:clap:
 
:ph34r:

What you say makes sense. However, the scenario that will most likely take place is:

1. We bring it to your attention and demand an apology.
2. Deflection occurs and our police action—which, btw, was none of your business—in Supreme Union is held up as a similar situation.
3. We are told the government knows nothing—good use of plausible deniability, btw—and those that do are missing or gone.
4. We continue to demand an investigation and apology.
5. We are told these things take t ime and we must be patient.
6. Three months later nothing has happened.

You will forgive us for ensuring that this does not happen.
 
With all due respect, Emperor, what may or may not happen does not discount that we here in TNP are trying our best to ensure that what you outlined does NOT happen.

To base your current words and actions on the assumption of our failure does not do well to improve or stabilize relations. TNP has had its share of mistakes, but it is not a child to be looked down upon and scolded.
 
moo-cows with guns:
:ph34r:

Blue Wolf, your question serves only to further inflame an already contentious situation.
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I believe he's calling your bluff.
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Vitrionia:
Upper Kirby:
Blue Wolf II:
Will you please get off the Supreme Union thing? It's like you're trying to get us into a conflict with The Pacific.
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Why is such an idea so terrible submission is preferable to backbone? If conflict were the case, they wouldn't be able to do anything. Except, I dunno, subvert our democracy with a tyrannical coup or something.
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That attitude is a poor one for any region, IMO. If we're going to aggrevate every region just because they can't harm us, then we'll be no better than people we apparantly disapprove of.
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But that's not what I said. It is not. There is a dominant thought that not prostrating ourselves to the NPO = WAR = BADBADOMG. That is silly. We should recognize that way. The last sentence is gravy and we all know why. No one around anymore (except Mesian, of course) had anything to do with what happened, nor is it the type of episode they have blown it up to be, nor are they treating us with any respect. Nor is this different from a cycle of actions both regions have covertly and overtly committed or attempted at each other, and the sooner we recognize that the better off we'll be.

I did not say we should aggravate every region because they can't harm us, or that we should aggravate any regions; you're just putting words into my mouth. You've made a.... straw man.... out of me. :shifty:
 
Please remind me, Blue Wolf II, the question that you wished the members of the NPO to answer.
 
Then the obvious slow path would have to be taken. It will only be worth it though if the NPO and TNP will end up being the same old friendly feeder regions they once were, before this entire scenario. But do not get me wrong, I am not implying that we are bad-tempered regions setting the standards as we please, I just express the anxiety that two great regions can fall out over something that can easily be resolved, when the right minds are put to the task.

I am therefore not saying that the Pacific would react in an unnecessary manner, it would be out of sheer disappointment and anxiety that this matter would not be able to be resolved more quickly and effectively, which would be the ideal scenario for both parties. Wouldn't you agree? :)
 
Upper Kirby:
But that's not what I said. It is not. There is a dominant thought that not prostrating ourselves to the NPO = WAR = BADBADOMG. That is silly. We should recognize that way. The last sentence is gravy and we all know why. No one around anymore (except Mesian, of course) had anything to do with what happened, nor is it the type of episode they have blown it up to be, nor are they treating us with any respect.
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:ph34r:

Are you purposefully trying to antagonize me or further inflame the situation?

It matters not if you were here when it happened; what matters is that it happened. The Pacific is not in the habit of sending anyone into another region with the purpose of causing trouble just because we don't like what they may be doing. The Pacific, on the other hand, has been the recipient of agents and provocateurs for its three-plus-year history. We have more than had enough.

We have been respectful; we simply want to ensure that this issue is not swept to the side and forgotten. It is exactly the kind of issue we have said it it; Mesian himself confirms it. The fact that no one in your government knew anything about what its own intel agency was doing should not be our problem. The responsibility lies with your regional government.
 
Upper Kirby:
But that's not what I said. It is not. There is a dominant thought that not prostrating ourselves to the NPO = WAR = BADBADOMG. That is silly. We should recognize that way. The last sentence is gravy and we all know why. No one around anymore (except Mesian, of course) had anything to do with what happened, nor is it the type of episode they have blown it up to be, nor are they treating us with any respect. Nor is this different from a cycle of actions both regions have covertly and overtly committed or attempted at each other, and the sooner we recognize that the better off we'll be.

I did not say we should aggravate every region because they can't harm us, or that we should aggravate any regions; you're just putting words into my mouth. You've made a.... straw man.... out of me. :shifty:
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Since no-one has come forward to exonerate him, and he himself admits culpability, we have to assume that Mesian was telling the truth and this was a NPIA operation into the Pacific for reasons unknown. The only certain factor in this is that it was an aggressive operation against the Pacific.

I took your last post to mean "If they can't hurt us, why should we care?", which I believe to be a poor attitude in any diplomatic situation. We can't just ignore this problem, and we certainly are obliged to investigate it to the fullest of our potential. The Pacific are the victims in this matter, and I believe they are justified in being a little blunt about getting things done considering our past record.
 
If it does turn out that this was not an official NPIA mission shouldn't Mesian face charges here, in The North, as well? After all, the illegitimacy of the mission would exclude him from an NPA/NPIA immunity laws.
 
Blue Wolf II:
If it does turn out that this was not an official NPIA mission shouldn't Mesian face charges here, in The North, as well? After all, the illegitimacy of the mission would exclude him from an NPA/NPIA immunity laws.
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Personally, I'd push for charges of treason.
 
moo-cows with guns:
Are you purposefully trying to antagonize me or further inflame the situation?
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I'sa soooo sowwee massuh; I jes' dun n'iht nno wut git uvvuh mii.

:no: :pinch:

It matters not if you were here when it happened; what matters is that it happened. The Pacific is not in the habit of sending anyone into another region with the purpose of causing trouble just because we don't like what they may be doing. The Pacific, on the other hand, has been the recipient of agents and provocateurs for its three-plus-year history. We have more than had enough.
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That sentence is either a lie or a line you tread very carefully. But of course, all those times were oh so very long ago, yes? so long ago no one in your government then is around any more, yes? it would be unfair for us to consider them, yes?

I am not defending what an agent of the NPIA did. Do not mistake me for that. Nor am I blaming someone else for something one of our people seem to have done. But I am not about to kowtow and you aren't going to receive proskynesis.

Vitrionia:
I took your last post to mean "If they can't hurt us, why should we care?", which I believe to be a poor attitude in any diplomatic situation.
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Well it sure is and I am glad we agree on that point.
 
But in that last post I would like to reinforce the fact that The Pacific would never send out nations without a reasonable explanation because we are a decent set of people with decent standards who show the right way of living in the world of NationStates. Okay, people have different beliefs on how the game and the regions should be run, but there would be some sort of compromise that the two regions involved can agree on to resolve matters. That is what one part of NationStates is all about, if friendships are weakened they can be strengthened.

All I ask at this moment in time is that the wrongdoers are given the slap on the hand with their deserved punishment and scuttle off. You should not allow one nation's actions to influence the action of others, especially this situation where I am not seeing the debates nearing any sort of resolution, which disappoints me greatly. Do not see this as direct order to the higher order of the North Pacific. This is just a peacemaker, sick of the sights of argument, wanting a swift resolution to this dilemma.
 
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