The Vexillum Billum

Darcania

Darcania

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Darcania
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@zephyrkul
Lately, I have noticed an issue commonly brought into debate in the Regional Assembly, that of newcomers to the region using the seal in various dispatches and representations that conflict with Section 10.2, clause 5 of the Legal Code, which states:
Legal Code Section 10.2:
5. The Coat of Arms of The North Pacific may not be used except to represent The North Pacific or an official regional entity.
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There has also often been debate about whether using the Flag of The North Pacific for non-official purposes falls afoul of this clause, due to the fact that the Flag contains in its design the entire Coat of Arms.

Various solutions have been proposed and used, from official warnings regarding the CoA from the AG's office, to the recent Flag Usage Act. This has been enough of an issue that the Attorney General candidates were asked about it in the previous election.

While I did not give an answer during my campaign, I have considered since then that the best solution was to redesign our Flag entirely, and remove the CoA from that flag. Indeed, this is a position I have often stated. Newcomers would thus much more rarely fall afoul of the simple error of removing two blue bars from the flag, and would instead have to seek out the CoA from government dispatches and other official documents in order to use it. While this wouldn't completely solve the issue, I think it would drastically cut down on the incidence rate of this error occurring.

Citizens of The North Pacific, I present to you the following bill:
The Vexillum Billum:
Section 10.1, clause 6 of the Legal Code will be amended to:
Section 10.1:
6. The following flag is adopted as the official flag of The North Pacific:
Tck0Lt0.png
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Code: 
6. The following flag is adopted as the official flag of The North Pacific:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Tck0Lt0.png[/IMG]
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Edit: Fullsize link here if you're having trouble expanding the embedded flag above. Total size is 1000x600.

BBCode is provided for ease of use by the Speaker should this bill pass, due to the difficulty in finding the original URL of an image from a forum post in XenForo.

I believed that the best approach was to take the design from the center of the CoA and create a flag out of this, thus making our CoA instead contain our flag rather than the other way around. This way they still remain visually connected, while addressing the issue I have laid out above.
 
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I'm in favour of this. Our current flag includes a coat of arms on a flag. While not improper, it's led to issues Darcania has covered. Further, from a design standpoint? Making the flag a banner of the arms both keeps the flag and coat of arms consistent and provides for a better looking flag, in my opinion.
 
Sil Dorsett:
A non-starter in my view, and I concur with Robespierre with the concerns about restricting the flag's patriotic use. It really does make this bill feel unpatriotic in intent. We've done just fine with reserving the Coat of Arms for government purposes. The flag may embed the Coat of Arms, but it is not the Coat of Arms. If you're looking to reduce confusion, this isn't the way to do it.
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If one is looking to reduce confusion, this is how you do it. I like it! I think the waves make it more interesting than just blocks of color on the side. There's symbolism in it, and represents us well. That and the North Star is our symbol, as well as not the CoA, thus avoiding the problems we've had in the past.
 
I like the flag, but I still have some lingering concerns. While TNP's government only uses the Coat of Arms for official purposes, that doesn't mean others won't interpret the usage of the flag as for official purposes. For a new player coming in, they could very well decide to use the flag in dispatches to demonstrate that they are part of TNP, but it could be interpreted by others as these dispatches as in an official capacity on behalf of TNP. While I don't know the original intent of banning CoA in non-official capacities, I suspect it has something to do with preventing private player opinions from being construed as official TNP statements. So a new flag, I feel, might not be so effective in achieving this goal.
 
Gorundu:
I like the flag, but I still have some lingering concerns. While TNP's government only uses the Coat of Arms for official purposes, that doesn't mean others won't interpret the usage of the flag as for official purposes. For a new player coming in, they could very well decide to use the flag in dispatches to demonstrate that they are part of TNP, but it could be interpreted by others as these dispatches as in an official capacity on behalf of TNP. While I don't know the original intent of banning CoA in non-official capacities, I suspect it has something to do with preventing private player opinions from being construed as official TNP statements. So a new flag, I feel, might not be so effective in achieving this goal.
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I think, Gorundu, that this is a problem that cannot be avoided short of banning the usage of the flag in non-official purposes.
 
Gorundu, I've already explained multiple points of yours in my post in your thread, and others have contributed to those counterpoints.
 
I'm not sure. Have always liked the TNP flag even if it doesn't make very much sense vexillologically speaking and changing it that drastically does feel pretty weird, though I do get the reasoning and defo not a bad looking flag. ergh
 
Malphe:
changing it that drastically
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It's not a drastic change at all from a symbols perspective. All the iconography we've grown used to is still on the flag, it just doesn't have the CoA on it because that's what I consider to be the main source of the problem.
 
Darcania:
It's not a drastic change at all from a symbols perspective. All the iconography we've grown used to is still on the flag, it just doesn't have the CoA on it because that's what I consider to be the main source of the problem.
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Yeh it has the same symbolism (white wave things were always in the flag, north star was added in with the current version I think so a bit newer) which is why I said it's not a bad flag, but it's still a massive deviation from all the previous TNP flags. It's always been that blue-white-blue tricolour with the coat of arms in the middle and changing that apparently solely for the legal issue of the CoA feels weird to me. Just a personal thing I guess, I would've thought the first thing we'd be doing here would be to change the CoA laws which are causing the issues, not redesigning the flag to remove the CoA from them.
 
I don't consider changing the laws around the CoA to be a solution. Having an official symbol for the government of TNP (rather than the region as a whole) that the government is empowered to protect is something I consider important for the various government seals and dispatches.
I had a point-by-point wall of text describing this written down, but sadly my computer restarted to flash its bios, and I lost it, so it'll be a while before I can post a rewritten version.
 
If anyone is wondering why this flag design looks awfully familiar, it is likely because you have seen it before. Late last December, TNP residents chose a very similar design to take the place of our gameside regional flag for a week. This was the flag (designed by SillyString) which was proudly flown:

WU44Fdd.png

Notice any similarities?

I have no issue with Darcania and Prydania crediting themselves in the laws for refining the design but the original creator, SillyString, needs to get the credit she deserves. This can be fixed quite simply by replacing ThelDran's name with SillyString's. Thel had nothing to do with this flag design. He is already rightfully credited for the designs he did create: TNP's current flag and CoA.

Until this case of (likely unintentional) plagiarism is addressed, I urge the Assembly to oppose this bill.
 
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It is not plagiarism, and I am frankly insulted that you would accuse me of such, and would even go so far as to urge the Assembly to join you in this wild accusation. I demand you retract these unfounded insults, and apologize for this behavior.

The idea of using the design in the escutcheon and stretching it out to encompass the entire flag is an idea that has met many individuals in this community. I, Prydania, SillyString, and I believe even Goyanes struck upon this idea independently at various times, and it was only when I approached Prydania and we worked together to create the above flag from scratch that I proposed it. I personally was never even aware that poll existed, nor was I aware the various designs that were in that poll. Two people independently coming up with an idea does not constitute plagiarism, and if you do not believe me, then I cannot believe that you would think that I would stoop so low. Either way, your false accusations and insults will not go unaddressed.

And besides, in your very own post, you say this:
Siwale:
He is already rightfully credited for the designs he did create: TNP's current flag and CoA.
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By your own words, Thel did create the original design that this flag was adapted from.
 
Siwale:
I have no issue with Darcania and Prydania crediting themselves in the laws for refining the design but the original creator, SillyString, needs to get the credit she deserves.
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I created the flag Darc used as the basis of the proposed design way back when I first joined TNP. This would have been in either the latter half of 2017 or early 2018. I invite anyone curious to check the Discord logs in both TNP Gen and TNP RP if they don't believe me.

Sillystring and I must have been inspired by the same idea (create a banner of arms from the coat of arms) but I in no way created my flag with Sillystring's design in mind, and I'm almost positive I created (and shared) my initial design before Sillystring's flag was unveiled.

EDIT

Siwale:
Until this case of (likely unintentional) plagiarism is addressed, I urge the Assembly to oppose this bill.
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An addition to the above.

I did, in fact, do a dive on the TNP Gen Discord.

KMX4t8A.png


I shared the flag Darc used as the basis of the Bill's proposed design back in February of 2018. Which predates SillyString's design Siwale has accused Darc and I of plagiarizing.

So no, I shall not be in favour of any of Siwale's suggestions and would very much appreciate an apology for his quick jump to judgment without proper research.

The above post can be verified by anyone on the TNP General Discord server. Search for my posts and limit yourself to just posts where I shared images. It's clear as day.

In light of this research I would ask Siwale to drop his urging of opposition, as the wrongdoing he is accusing Darc and myself of didn't occur.
 
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I have removed the line regarding credit entirely from the proposal. The person in question, @King SillyString, has herself proposed to remove the line regarding credit, and as such no more baseless claims about plagiarism need to be made.

I, however, maintain my demand that Siwale retract his statement and apologize.
 
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Plagiarism may not have been the best wording. I will retract that and apologize for any offense I caused. However, I stand behind my statements that SillyString should be credited if you choose to proceed with listing involved parties. If it is going to cause too much trouble, just remove it. There’s no need to credit individuals in the laws.
 
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Siwale:
Plagiarism may not have been the best wording. I will retract that and apologize for any offense I caused. However, I stand behind my statements that SillyString should be credited if you choose to proceed with listing involved parties. If it is going to cause too much trouble, just remove it. There’s no need to credit individuals in the laws.
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In the name of not polluting this thread with screenshots? I'll leave them out. That being said I can provide them to anyone who asks via PM.

Anyway...
1) Darc and I are in agreement that it's best to remove credit.
2) SillyString asserted she was working on her design as early as 2017. I believe her. I have no reason not to. That being said, she only "publicly" unveiled the design in the TNP Executive Staff server (which I did not have access to at the time) in April of 2018. I posted my design in the TNP Gen server in February of 2018.
3) My DM history with SillyString only goes back to 1 July 2018. Meaning she never once shared her ideas for this flag design with me before I created the prototype for this bill's flag in February of that year.

And now it seems @Goyanes had a design based on the same concept going back to 2016! So it seems like Goy, SillyString, Darc, and myself were all working with the same ideas independently of one and other. It's because of that that it's the easiest solution to remove credit, as you suggested.

Finally? Thank you for your apology.
 
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Darcania:
Gorundu, I've already explained multiple points of yours in my post in your thread, and others have contributed to those counterpoints.
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I get what you explained, but my concern is based on the fact that outside nations or new nations are very unlikely to know that only the Coat of Arms, and not the flag, is used for official government purposes, so if someone puts the TNP flag on an official-looking dispatch, my bet is there will be some people who get confused by this. It doesn't matter what the flag is.
 
I mean, I'm not 100% sure people understand how much the TNP flag has been played around with. By me, by dozens of other people, for fun or to come up with a new TNP flag or a new NPA flag etc etc. You could probably find a pretty similar flag to lots of obvious designs somebody could propose here, especially one of the most obvious (just take the face of the CoA and turn that into the entire flag).
 
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After some thought, and whilst I agree with Malphe that I very much like the current flag, I'm inclined to support this. I second the motion for a vote and encourage everyone to vote for it, even if I myself currently can't.

Sometimes change is good - and I'm convinced by the arguments Darcania has made and very much appreciate that he's not attempted to engage in vexillologist shenanigans.
 
The motion for a vote is recognized and this bill is now in a formal debate period for 5 days. As a note, this period can be shortened at the request of the citizen who introduced the proposal. A vote will be scheduled to begin following the conclusion of the formal debate period.
 
Change is scary. I understand that. Especially in a region like this.

And I don't say that as a bad thing. Part of what makes TNP a special region is the longevity of its institutions. And so I get why a serviceable flag like the one currently in use is preferred.

That being said? Change isn't always bad. And Darc and I are not suggesting a massive change here.
This region survived a change that allowed non-RA voters the right to citizenship. It survived a change that allowed RMB posts to count towards keeping citizenship- and I fully admit I was wrong about the last one.

So in that context? Changing the flag from one that features a coat of arms to a more vexillologically correct banner of arms is hardly a world shattering event.

The core symbolism of TNP would remain unchanged by the passage of this bill and the adoption of this flag.
It would all just look a bit better :)
 
By the power of Chrome's console, I present to you how the region page would look with the above proposed flag.
 
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Now that I can talk. I would like to say that I fully support this bill. I find the new flag to beautifully reflect the culture and history of our region by being informed by the coat of arms. I applaud Darcania and Prydania's work and care with this project, and I hope to see it pass with confidence.
 
A vote on this bill is scheduled to begin in 2 days, and will begin at (time=1567206000).
 
I certainly appreciate the effort both of you have put into this design and can understand the reasoning for it. That said, I really like the current flag and don't think I'm ready for it to change yet.
 
I would like to make an update to my previous statement.

While yes we have had flag amendments in the past, they all look similar to the current flag. Two blue bars to the left and right sides, one white bar in the middle, and the coat of arms in the middle. But for some time now we have been using the North Star as an unofficial coat of arms for some programs. Especially in the North Pacific Army.

I don’t see why not changing our flag to this and keeping our old coat of arms for governmental use. That being said, I support this change.
 
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Changing the flag is a pretty major endeavor, and while I like the new design more than the current one, I think this sort of process needs more input from the region at large and more time than it's been given so far.

I also have a minor issue with the design. As it currently stands, they're is no clearly defined bottom edge, and so on a white background with no border, the white spaces at the bottom of the flag would be open into the background. On a piece of cloth, this would not be an issue, but since this will be almost exclusively for digital use, I think we should be optimising for all contexts. This could be resolved by putting a thin border around the design, or possibly by filling in the white space at the bottom with blue.

Edit: we could also think about replacing the white waves with gray, beige, or gold.
 
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I find myself in complete agreement with @Crushing Our Enemies . I would strongly urge an onsite poll be used to gauge the opinion of all nations in the region, after first addressing the concern about the lower border.

I will confess that I am attached to the continuity of the three stripe flag, but if the region as polled clearly agrees with this change, I will support it in this Assembly.
 
The simple answer is to remove the CoA and keep the three-stripe background: This simultaneously fixes the CoA misuse issue, addresses vexillological concerns, and preserves the tradition of the three-stripe flag. But I know I am in the minority (only one?) of people who appreciate the resulting simple yet elegant design :P .

8BX15iZ.png

I do agree with COE and Eluvatar that the new design would benefit from having an extra blue stripe at the bottom, to create a visible edge. It is also worth noting that the CoA itself ends on a blue stripe and not a white one. So, adding the bottom blue stripe to the proposed flag design would make it not only more practical, but also more in line with the CoA.
 
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Totally against. There's 650 NPA puppets that would have to be changed and the last time I did anything with all of them at once I almost got DOSed
 
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