Slave Trade OOC

Hi Nierr... Hi Eluvatar...

Just to add something, last time I checked, we are all playing a game called NationStates. According to the official site and the creator, "NationStates is a free nation simulation game where you create your own country, fashioned after your own ideals, and care for its people. Either that or you deliberately torture them. It's really up to you".

Sytarenne, I have been insanely patient and tried to deal with your attacks as calmly as possible yet right now it is getting very out of hand. I've offered posts of advice (some may seem more critical than others) in how to fashion a role-play scenario that any of us would be happy to participate in. Mainly you need to understand that we all fashion our nations based on our own ideas and ideals (be it the character's that run our nation or our nations history). If you cannot accept that fact and feel the need to always be 'right' and dictate to others how to run their nations, I'm not sure what more I can say that I haven't already said.
 
New Aquilia:
I'm going with the major abolitionist force..I'm going with the history that the Ancient Church condemned slavery in 1100 along with serfdom. I'm basing it off of this piece of not well known history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_London_in_1102
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The Church of Syrixia probably would've condemned slavery too, but the government of the Empire really wouldn't care what they said out of greed. XD
 
Sauceistan:
Cronaal:
On a lighter note,
If this were to happen, would this be based in a certain area of the map or wide-spread throughout the region.
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I'm not sure what you mean.
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Most of the discussion I've seen about the Slave Trade was 'saying' that the event would be mainly focused around the newer continents.
 
Back before the later 1400s, the lands that are now Zemnaya Svoboda / the Russian Republic would have been very disunited. I wouldn't object if anyone had them as a source of slaves.
 
Just like to add, I'll be playing as a pro-abolitionist nation when I'm not as Despotoa; Xentherida is a nation with high morals, and despises slavery, among other "evil" things. It's likely we'll cease diplomatic relations and potentially condemn any countries who use slaves. Despotoa, on the other hand, is so extreme you'll probably be condemning it. But a final thing; between the mid 1700s to the mid 1800s, be prepared for the flood of refugees...
 
Cronaal:
Sauceistan:
Cronaal:
On a lighter note,
If this were to happen, would this be based in a certain area of the map or wide-spread throughout the region.
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I'm not sure what you mean.
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Most of the discussion I've seen about the Slave Trade was 'saying' that the event would be mainly focused around the newer continents.
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I think we're leaning towards using nations who volunteer.
 
Eluvatar:
17 minutes ago: New Aquilia relocated from The North Pacific to Pax.
17 minutes ago: New Aquilia founded the region Pax.
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I'm guessing that was a protest against Sytarenne and his dictation. Idk.

Also, @Nierr: No problem. I was getting a bit annoyed with Sytarenne too.
 
We do need to address why everyone wants these slaves. What crop or other thing requiring labor would catalyst the slave boom?
 
Sauceistan:
We do need to address why everyone wants these slaves. What crop or other thing requiring labor would catalyst the slave boom?
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That is a good point. Anyone got ideas?
 
Despotoa would use slaves to create huge monuments to the despotic (geddit? Despotoa? Despotic?) leaders and those in charge. When I mean huge, I mean like eighty feet apiece. In fact, a large tomb was made when one of those in charge died, of which took forty years to complete, and put the Egyptian pyramids to shame. It was later demolished after the revolution.
And also, slaves to cater to each and every official's needs. Each official would have about twenty-five slaves each, and there were about one thousand officials.
Finally, they would be put to work on a multitude of failed crop plants, or forced to build military building, or a giant wall to mark out the border of Despotoa, and prevent anyone from escaping.
 
Xentherida:
Despotoa would use slaves to create huge monuments to the despotic (geddit? Despotoa? Despotic?) leaders and those in charge. When I mean huge, I mean like eighty feet apiece. In fact, a large tomb was made when one of those in charge died, of which took forty years to complete, and put the Egyptian pyramids to shame. It was later demolished after the revolution.
And also, slaves to cater to each and every official's needs. Each official would have about twenty-five slaves each, and there were about one thousand officials.
Finally, they would be put to work on a multitude of failed crop plants, or forced to build military building, or a giant wall to mark out the border of Despotoa, and prevent anyone from escaping.
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Calm down.
 
So since you all locked any discussion I had, are we going to address how this is probably going to be a cesspit of racism and tasteless writing.
 
Post by Saint Oz hidden, as it's a thinly-veiled snipe. Further snipes, Saint Oz, will be reported to the admins.

If you wish to have further conversation on potential racism in this thread, please suggest (minus the sniping) a content ruling against it in the Discussion: Content Rules thread. Snipes, naturally, will be reported.
 
So I have a 22 Billion population nation, I guess in 1750, I'll have 5 billion or so.

So I'd probably mobilize a fleet of Man-o-Wars to capture as many slaves as possible.

This sound good or should I modify my backstory for my nation
 
Saint Oz:
So I have a 22 Billion population nation, I guess in 1750, I'll have 5 billion or so.

So I'd probably mobilize a fleet of Man-o-Wars to capture as many slaves as possible.

This sound good or should I modify my backstory for my nation
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So long as you don't use that population and fleet of man-o-wars to godmod and destroy everyone else and sap the fun out of RP, I couldn't care less. If you do godmod, you will be moderated accordingly.

I'm surprised, though. You would think such a perfect RPer would have a more stable, detailed, and believable background.
 
Darcania:
Saint Oz:
So I have a 22 Billion population nation, I guess in 1750, I'll have 5 billion or so.

So I'd probably mobilize a fleet of Man-o-Wars to capture as many slaves as possible.

This sound good or should I modify my backstory for my nation
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So long as you don't use that population and fleet of man-o-wars to godmod and destroy everyone else and sap the fun out of RP, I couldn't care less. If you do godmod, you will be moderated accordingly.

I'm surprised, though. You would think such a perfect RPer would have a more stable, detailed, and believable background.
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I never said I was a perfect RPer, I guess you and your friends said that.

I promise not to god mod, I promise my Man-o-Wars have really poorly trained sailors, I promise.

So where do we start this shindig

EDIT: I'm also afraid that this RP might be against the content rules
This most notably includes: pornography, nudity, or sexual material of any kind; abusive, threatening, defamatory, racist, or obscene content; excessive profanity; etc.
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I was going to post a realistic represenation of the slave trade, but I guess I'll have to whitewash it to be nice and pretty for these content rules.
 
Nebula is probably at the end of the Czar phase. Contrary to what their name suggests, the czars were a group of monarchs that ruled with a kindly hand. They did not stand for slavery, and when the country evolved into a democracy (in theory), the ban was kept, although the corporate barons that ran the country did not establish minimum wage, allowing them to oppress those under them. And since Nebula was an island, it was easy to encourage isolationism and prevent better-educated foreigners from getting in.
 
Lest it be lost in the bickering:

I should say that those who have concerns about this subject for a role play are absolutely right to be concerned.

Slavery, particularly chattel slavery in the new world, was really, very, extremely, horribly awful. It was generations of exploitation, dehumanization, violence, and rape. The slave trade which supplied it was equally horrific, and also terribly destructive.

When writing about real matters this terrible, it is very easy to end up writing insensitively. This can be particularly offensive coming from people who lack any associated perspective.

This is not to say that it is impossible to write stories about slavery and the slave trade that are constructive and appropriate in tone. It is, however, difficult. It is particularly difficult with self-identification with the characters, I think.

As I noted earlier, I'd have no objection to russian slaves being dragged off in the early second millennium. However, I'd advise caution and consideration in exploring this subject.

I will remind everyone, also, that the Zetaboards Terms of Use explicitly prohibit racist or sexual content.
 
I am extremely opposed to anything like this for a few reasons.

One is the extremely racist nature of slavery that I would be very uncomfortable reading or participating in. As St. Oz brought up, I don't think we are collectively good enough of writers to be able to do such a thing justice without it being extremely poor and insensitive. Given the proposed conditions of this "slave trade," it would almost assuredly be, or at least be referencing, the plight of Africans in the 15th through the 19th centuries.

The second is that Funkadelia is entirely inhabited by black people, and would assuredly be a target for nations to harvest people from. It would be illogical for nations that like to god mod (will not include names) to just march in and steal my people without me being able to protest or fight it. Being a nation that is similar to Ethiopia or Nigeria, I can see just about every nation seeking Funkadelian people to force them to do labor. I am extremely opposed to subjecting the people of my nation to that, and as I stated before I am opposed to even trying to do it without being able to put it in such a way that is not extremely insensitive, and based on the writing abilities of some people, I don't think such a venture should be attempted especially with the people from my nation. The fact that this is being discussed concerns me given the extreme connotations that slavery has, unless someone is going to write gut wrenching, powerful stories about it. Given the performance of some writers, I could see this going very downhill very quickly.
 
Saint Oz:
So I have a 22 Billion population nation, I guess in 1750, I'll have 5 billion or so.

So I'd probably mobilize a fleet of Man-o-Wars to capture as many slaves as possible.

This sound good or should I modify my backstory for my nation
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22 billion?! That's not realistic at all! The largest nation on the map by comparison, since the map is measureingly speaking; the size of North America, is around the size of TEXAS! Unless your nation controls most of the world or something, there's no way you can fit 22 billion people into it! China has a hard time with 2 billion!
Funkadelia:
I am extremely opposed to anything like this for a few reasons.

One is the extremely racist nature of slavery that I would be very uncomfortable reading or participating in. As St. Oz brought up, I don't think we are collectively good enough of writers to be able to do such a thing justice without it being extremely poor and insensitive. Given the proposed conditions of this "slave trade," it would almost assuredly be, or at least be referencing, the plight of Africans in the 15th through the 19th centuries.

The second is that Funkadelia is entirely inhabited by black people, and would assuredly be a target for nations to harvest people from. It would be illogical for nations that like to god mod (will not include names) to just march in and steal my people without me being able to protest or fight it. Being a nation that is similar to Ethiopia or Nigeria, I can see just about every nation seeking Funkadelian people to force them to do labor. I am extremely opposed to subjecting the people of my nation to that, and as I stated before I am opposed to even trying to do it without being able to put it in such a way that is extremely insensitive, and based on the writing abilities of some people, I don't think such a venture should be attempted especially with the people from my nation. The fact that this is being discussed concerns me given the extreme connotations that slavery has, unless someone is going to write gut wrenching, powerful stories about it. Given the performance of some writers, I could see this going very downhill very quickly.
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You seem to think that because the IRL slave trade targeted blacks for slavery, that the same would be the case here. I beg to differ; if we were to use blacks we'd probably be hammered by everything imaginable for racism. We could always use another group, or maybe even a conglomerate of multiple groups.
 
Most of the people who are posting in this thread "offering" colonies have "native populations" in such climactic conditions that they'd almost assuredly be black (i.e. in tropical deserts, in the deep tropics, etc.)
 
Funkadelia:
Most of the people who are posting in this thread "offering" colonies have "native populations" in such climactic conditions that they'd almost assuredly be black (i.e. in the desert, in the deep tropics, etc.)
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I propose Sauceistan be a slave source. Not only do we have a very tropical climate and a native population, this could merge well with the proposed history of my nation.
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Climate-wise, the area to the northwest of us should be a Kalahari-like desert, being in the considerable rain shadow of our Ano Gnathos mountains. Might be a good spot
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You beat me to it, it's definitely assuring us that they'd be black.
 
@Nierr: No, it wasn't meant to be snipe. I do apologize if it sounded like one. I was using Sytarenne's own words.

Sure as hell, nobody here will glorify slavery. But as Kannex is based off the RL United States of America, slavery happens to be a major part of my history. I don't know about the others, but I did not plan on whitewashing slavery. It's partly why I don't want an RP focused exclusively or primarily on the institution of slavery itself: there's nothing redeeming about it. I could write about slave escapes or slave revolts, but these are localized events and would need to be developed further. Slavery is about exploitation of humans, rape, servitude, humiliation, evil. There should and there won't be any pornographic content in this, but if there is racism that will be inherent in the story. But to talk about racism, I think, does not make us racist.

I very well understand the concerns regarding this idea. In response to Funkedelia's concern, as fellow role-players you, of course, have ultimate power over your nations' histories. You can decide whether or not to participate in this idea.
 
Technically, it is not so much about a person's ethnicity, but their ability to defend themself. If (say), in the colonial era, British people took a large shipments of slaves from France, then France, as a unified, advanced country, would be furious, and declare war, or arrest/execute the slave takers. However, if Britain took slaves from a less advanced, and less unified area, then there would be less repercussions, because unfortunately those native to the area cannot do anything; they cannot ward off their potential capturers, or even defend themselves.

In short, it is not necessarily about your ethnicity, but about your ability to defend yourself. If Funkadelia was a developed, unified nation in that period, then there would be no reason for Funkadelians to be put into slavery; the repercussions would be too high for the slave takers, and it would be too risky for them to take slaves.
 
**Disclaimer, I'm acknowledging everyone's history, not just one group**
Funkadelia:
One is the extremely racist nature of slavery that I would be very uncomfortable reading or participating in.
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"Slavery is a legal or economic system in which principles of property law can apply to humans so that people can be treated as property, and can be owned, bought and sold accordingly, and cannot withdraw unilaterally from the arrangement."

To paint slavery as racism is to not fully understand the history of slavery and upon whom or by whom it was effected and for what reasons. So Chinese on Chinese slavery is racism? Slavic slavery by Italians is racism? Arab slavery on Arabs is racism? Bond slavery of people of similar decent is racism? Governmental forced labor and reeducation camps especially for political dissent are racially motivated? Just because some events of slavery were racially inclined does not make the whole racist. That's fallaciously guilt by association. To look at slavery as the plight of only Africans is to unjustly discount the countless slaves today and through history who are not African, but instead hail from every race.

Plus the nature of this proposed thread would most likely be the promotion of the abolition of slavery for all people in all circumstance.
Funkadelia:
Given the proposed conditions of this "slave trade," it would almost assuredly be, or at least be referencing, the plight of Africans in the 15th through the 19th centuries.
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Or instead the plight of people in the Arab slave trade from Central Asia and the Caucasus, European slavery especially of the Slavics, Roman slave trade, Slavery in India, Asiatic slave trade, Japanese slaves, Korean slaves, Chinese slaves, Native American slave trade (Pre 1492 and post 1492), etc etc etc.
Funkadelia:
As St. Oz brought up, I don't think we are collectively good enough of writers to be able to do such a thing justice without it being extremely poor and insensitive.
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The point of this OOC is to discuss the nature and scope of the possible scenario to see if there may be a worthy story which can be portrayed. Also to see in what manner the story might be carried forward is also open for understanding.
Funkadelia:
The second is that Funkadelia is entirely inhabited by black people, and would assuredly be a target for nations to harvest people from.
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No. This would only be the case if you requested this to be the case. Have you requested Funkadelia to be a source for slaves? As far as I recall you have not. Also Xentherida's point is accurate, slavers don't take slaves from nations who will hunt them down.
Funkadelia:
Being a nation that is similar to Ethiopia or Nigeria, I can see just about every nation seeking Funkadelian people to force them to do labor.
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I would not see my people doing anything of the sort and I'm sure there are other nations who feel the same.
Funkadelia:
unless someone is going to write gut wrenching, powerful stories about it.
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That and other things are the point of this OOC. I encourage discussion on how to properly convey a good story line within the bounds and convey what is required to make this thread respectful.
 
Cronaal:
Sauceistan:
Cronaal:
On a lighter note,
If this were to happen, would this be based in a certain area of the map or wide-spread throughout the region.
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I'm not sure what you mean.
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Most of the discussion I've seen about the Slave Trade was 'saying' that the event would be mainly focused around the newer continents.
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This thread is taking a different tack and is opening the situation to both internal and external matters of slavery and indentured service. Nations are offering their services as host nations by external force or internal events leading to slaves. Slaves have been the result of war prisoners, political events enslaving groups of their own people, bond servitude, kidnapping, etc. Slavery is not always the result of an outside nation taking another nation's people.
 
Eluvatar:
Back before the later 1400s, the lands that are now Zemnaya Svoboda / the Russian Republic would have been very disunited. I wouldn't object if anyone had them as a source of slaves.
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Very well, there is another source of possible slaves. As the name reminds me of the situation, might there have been serf type or bond/debt type slavery in your nation?
 
Sorry about the multi posts, last post to get caught up.
Syrixia:
We do need to address why everyone wants these slaves. What crop or other thing requiring labor would catalyst the slave boom?
That is a good point. Anyone got ideas?
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Slaves have been used throughout history for various purposes from the professional military and house servants to less desirable positions. These less desirable jobs are general labor, soldier conscripts, mining, prostitution, gladiatorial, farming, etc.

Watch the show Humans or anything that has slaves in it and you'll get an idea of why slaves would be desired.

If you're looking for crops, that would be just about everything since until recently in history farming was highly labor intensive. If you're looking for cash crops, that would be coffee, tea, silks/textiles, fruit, spices/seasonings, etc.

Darcania:
Sacrifices for local dragons? :P
Expendable soldiers to drive off invading dragons? :P
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Actually aside from the morbidity of the statement, yes, that would be a valid case. Numerous cultures used slaves as sacrifices to that which they worshiped, and usually didn't like using their own people except for very special cases.

Xentherida:
Despotoa, on the other hand, is so extreme you'll probably be condemning it. But a final thing; between the mid 1700s to the mid 1800s, be prepared for the flood of refugees...
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Will be keeping an eye out for that.
 
Funkadelia:
...seeking Funkadelian people to force them to do labor.
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The only thing we'd want to force the Funkadelian people to do for us is introduce us to George Clinton and Bootsie.
 
I'll make statement here addressing some of the concerns with out quoting.

I don't think any RP about slavery needs to be utterly explicit in order to be good. ("Good" here meaning to properly conveying the horrors of slavery.) Uncle Tom's Cabin was hardly explicit at all, and yet it still leaves the reader with absolute disgust for the slave system.

Most other works about slavery, genocide, or other bigotry-driven atrocities are true stories for the following reason: They serve as a warning the danger of hatred. (As Stow wrote in her afterward to Uncle Tom she wrote to "make people feel right.")

That said, I don't think it is at all necessary (or appropriate) to write an RP exclusively about a TNP slave trade. I agree with Funk here in his opinion that writing about such a sensitive matter is a task that should only be undertaken by the best of the best. I, personally, am not interested in reading about a fictional list of atrocities in a fictional geographical area. I would only be disgusted by it, not entertained.

We could, for the purpose of historical detail, mention that many of our nations held slaves, but RPing about it isn't worth it.
 
I still don't see why everyone's going on about this RP's slaves being black and/or arguing about it in the first place. We can use other groups. The Kievan Rus', for example, traded slaves that were of their own race.
 
Syrixia:
I still don't see why everyone's going on about this RP's slaves being black and/or arguing about it in the first place. We can use other groups. The Kievan Rus', for example, traded slaves that were of their own race.
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Because from reading this thread, it is very clear that the default assumption of many people is that the slaves under discussion will be black.

It is absolutely correct to say that there have been countless institutions of slavery, and not all of them have been racially motivated. And I think some people may be skilled enough, sensitive enough, and knowledgeable enough to depict slavery within the confines of an RP in a fashion that does not offend or enrage. But I am far, far from convinced - especially given some of the behavior in this very thread, as well as more generally in the RP area - that most people interested in this idea will execute it in a skilled way. The way you phrased this comment does not inspire much confidence in me.

It is also not really accurate to assert that no nationstate with the means to defend itself and aggress against others was or would be used as a source of slaves in a realistic setting (like, say, RL). Sure, the European slave trade out of Africa used lower-technology civilizations rather than enslaving one another, but plenty of practices in history, for example, have enslaved the losers in battles and wars that were fought between relative equals. This may have been practiced by both sides or not, but the fact remains that it was not solely those groups unable to raise an army who became targets for slavery.
 
SillyString:
Syrixia:
I still don't see why everyone's going on about this RP's slaves being black and/or arguing about it in the first place. We can use other groups. The Kievan Rus', for example, traded slaves that were of their own race.
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Because from reading this thread, it is very clear that the default assumption of many people is that the slaves under discussion will be black.

It is absolutely correct to say that there have been countless institutions of slavery, and not all of them have been racially motivated. And I think some people may be skilled enough, sensitive enough, and knowledgeable enough to depict slavery within the confines of an RP in a fashion that does not offend or enrage. But I am far, far from convinced - especially given some of the behavior in this very thread, as well as more generally in the RP area - that most people interested in this idea will execute it in a skilled way. The way you phrased this comment does not inspire much confidence in me.

It is also not really accurate to assert that no nationstate with the means to defend itself and aggress against others was or would be used as a source of slaves in a realistic setting (like, say, RL). Sure, the European slave trade out of Africa used lower-technology civilizations rather than enslaving one another, but plenty of practices in history, for example, have enslaved the losers in battles and wars that were fought between relative equals. This may have been practiced by both sides or not, but the fact remains that it was not solely those groups unable to raise an army who became targets for slavery.
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Agreed. And I remember someone saying that, say, Sauceistan, for example, having a tropical climate would make it seem like the Sauceistanis were probably black; which is frankly odd and rude, since it's his nation and not whoever-said-it's. I'm honestly losing confidence in the ability of us to carry out this RP if we continue to bicker. Several options have been presented to us, we've been warned to tread carefully when posting and not be explicit; MULTIPLE TIMES, et cetera, et cetera. It's really quite pointless.

So here's my idea.

1. We have options for slave sources presented to us. Race matters not. As SS said, it matters about the level of tech and unitedness of civilization, and the options we have provide that well. Let's use them. ALL OF THEM.

2. We'll go and get them, and show cautious, non-explicit posts about the slaves working on the fields, as well as elaborating on what crop starts the slave boom, and how the slave boom eventually ends.

3. We focus on the two above things, and stop bickering about everything else. We need to make progress.
 
The bulk of Kannexan slaves will definitely be black, to explain the multiracial nature of the Kannexan people. Kannexan demographics are based off Brazil. And I suppose slaves will be used on coffee plantations and ships. On ships, there will definitely be slaves of many races, just as maritime slavery is today. I don't see why we would RP about the institution of slavery itself; the way I'm seeing it, slavery will only be the backdrop of the story.

EDIT: We need a story, a real story. An RP "just about" slavery is going to end up as a history lecture. Sytarenne's "Past History" thread should've had a story, too.
 
Zemnaya Svoboda / the Russias would have had limited serfdom prior to 1500. They could however have been subjected to slave raids from neighboring groups, and/or lost some soldiers to slavery as prisoners.
 
Throughout most of its history Nebula has had a strong central government with a standing army. I can't see us becoming a large source of slaves.
 
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