[discussion] The Democratic Union

mcmasterdonia

mcmasterdonia

Just like a queef in the wind, so is life
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TNP Nation
McMasterdonia
DU matters are naturally decided by their own membership, but I thought it would be worth having a discussion about the DU - how has it been so far? Where do we see it going? What can be improved?

Right now, I think naturally a lot of it is dependent on the chairman. Fortunately, we have done fairly well with that regard. The DU is the biggest and only player on the international stage in TNP roleplay.

There has been the suggestion that another body should spring up to compete with the DU for supremacy. I am very open to this idea. The DU has quickly become largely self-sufficient, it doesn't exactly require a huge involvement from the government. I am interested to know the thoughts of others on this matter.
 
Yeah, though I'm not a member state, I think the DU's Collective Defense Agreement basically turns it into a NATO, even though most new member states probably don't realize that when they sign up.
 
As Roman said, I think if there is a NATO for the peaceful nations there should also be a Warsaw Pact for the militaristic nations. A little organizational rivalry would spice up the roleplay subforum tremendously.
 
Syrixia:
As Roman said, I think if there is a NATO for the peaceful nations there should also be a Warsaw Pact for the militaristic nations. A little organizational rivalry would spice up the roleplay subforum tremendously.
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TNP doesn't have enough militaristic nations. It was nice when you were a big evil empire.
 
You should let dictatorships in the DU, maybe as permanent observer states or something. The way it is now a lot of nations are left out of the majority of RPs because they play as non-democratic countries.
 
Scandigrad:
What we really need is a rp regional assembly. The due has taken on an alliance role
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I honestly don't agree. I think it'd be a mistake if we were to continue the DU as simply an alliance. I think it's members could greatly expand it to cover other regional assembly style matters.

I think we are sorely lacking in opposition to the DU as the most elite body of nations. Malvad and I deliberately tried to cause trouble between our nations to make it a bit more interesting. I think we need to think of how to make the RP scene more dynamic, I don't think a RA would really change that.
 
Personally, before the establishment of the DU I always imagined that there was an RP regional assembly. It made sense to me and I thought it could work if nations ever needed to work out issues or decide on matters like the UN or the WA. The Democratic Union was kind of designed in this sense, and there were a few attempts before it. I kind of want the DU to be based on the basic idea of the European Union, a group of nations coming together to better understand each other and work for peace and unity. Now although it does not always work like that, I do not want the DU to just become a glorified military alliance. Something can still arise to challenge us, but it does not have to solely challenge us militarily. Economics, politics, and society are all important as well.
 
plembobria:
Syrixia:
As Roman said, I think if there is a NATO for the peaceful nations there should also be a Warsaw Pact for the militaristic nations. A little organizational rivalry would spice up the roleplay subforum tremendously.
Click to expand...
TNP doesn't have enough militaristic nations. It was nice when you were a big evil empire.
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Did somebody say evil :evil: ?

I'm totally agree to create an evil rival organization to the DU like SPECTRE, HYDRA or COBRA!
 
Empire of Narnia:
You should let dictatorships in the DU, maybe as permanent observer states or something. The way it is now a lot of nations are left out of the majority of RPs because they play as non-democratic countries.
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Dictatorships should form their own version of the DU. For dictatorial regimes. That way the DU would have a threat to complain about every now and then.
 
This "dictatorial/militaristic union" idea actually sounds like it could happen; we should find a Chairman for it. I think Tomb would make a good chairman due to his government, but he isn't exactly active lately. Nessuno may be another choice, idk.

However, since I choose to remain in the DU myself (Unless I get rejected for full membership of course, Scandigrad says that's still pending due to the new constitution vote) I probably am not the best person to talk about this. I would recommend a separate thread be made for this, where people like Narnia, Nessuno, Tomb, etc. can discuss it along with other nations who are interested in the idea of two competing unions.
 
Nessuno:
plembobria:
Syrixia:
As Roman said, I think if there is a NATO for the peaceful nations there should also be a Warsaw Pact for the militaristic nations. A little organizational rivalry would spice up the roleplay subforum tremendously.
Click to expand...
TNP doesn't have enough militaristic nations. It was nice when you were a big evil empire.
Click to expand...
Did somebody say evil :evil: ?

I'm totally agree to create an evil rival organization to the DU like SPECTRE, HYDRA or COBRA!
Click to expand...
Not all non-democratic nations are cartoonishly evil regimes. A lot of them are more benign things like absolute monarchies, Father Knows Best States, religious states and Socialist states.

The opposite to the DU shouldn't just be it's evil twin, it should be something regular nations might actually want to be apart of.
 
Empire of Narnia:
Nessuno:
plembobria:
Syrixia:
As Roman said, I think if there is a NATO for the peaceful nations there should also be a Warsaw Pact for the militaristic nations. A little organizational rivalry would spice up the roleplay subforum tremendously.
Click to expand...
TNP doesn't have enough militaristic nations. It was nice when you were a big evil empire.
Click to expand...
Did somebody say evil :evil: ?

I'm totally agree to create an evil rival organization to the DU like SPECTRE, HYDRA or COBRA!
Click to expand...
Not all non-democratic nations are cartoonishly evil regimes. A lot of them are more benign things like absolute monarchies, Father Knows Best States, religious states and Socialist states.

The opposite to the DU shouldn't just be it's evil twin, it should be something regular nations might actually want to be apart of.
Click to expand...
But you have to admit that the evil twin sounds more interesting and exciting.
 
Nessuno:
Empire of Narnia:
Nessuno:
plembobria:
Syrixia:
As Roman said, I think if there is a NATO for the peaceful nations there should also be a Warsaw Pact for the militaristic nations. A little organizational rivalry would spice up the roleplay subforum tremendously.
Click to expand...
TNP doesn't have enough militaristic nations. It was nice when you were a big evil empire.
Click to expand...
Did somebody say evil :evil: ?

I'm totally agree to create an evil rival organization to the DU like SPECTRE, HYDRA or COBRA!
Click to expand...
Not all non-democratic nations are cartoonishly evil regimes. A lot of them are more benign things like absolute monarchies, Father Knows Best States, religious states and Socialist states.

The opposite to the DU shouldn't just be it's evil twin, it should be something regular nations might actually want to be apart of.
Click to expand...
But you have to admit that the evil twin sounds more interesting and exciting.
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I think it would be doomed to fail and really cliche and dumb. While the DU would be the "serious" alliance, the evil alternate would be more of just a cheap joke. Somebody playing as say, an absolutist European monarchy isn't going to want to join what is just for "evil" nations. Same with somebody playing as any sort of Socialist state.


I think something like the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation would be a good thing to base the alternate DU on. The SCO has countries like China, Kazakhstan and Russia. It doesn't discriminate between democracies and dictatorships or even Communist and Capitalist.
 
Am I the only one who read the OP? McMasterdonia specifically brings up the idea of a competing organization in the OP. It can't be threadjacking if the OP brings it up as a specific topic of discussion.

Third paragraph, first sentence.
 
Malvad:
Personally, before the establishment of the DU I always imagined that there was an RP regional assembly. It made sense to me and I thought it could work if nations ever needed to work out issues or decide on matters like the UN or the WA. The Democratic Union was kind of designed in this sense, and there were a few attempts before it. I kind of want the DU to be based on the basic idea of the European Union, a group of nations coming together to better understand each other and work for peace and unity. Now although it does not always work like that, I do not want the DU to just become a glorified military alliance. Something can still arise to challenge us, but it does not have to solely challenge us militarily. Economics, politics, and society are all important as well.
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I was originally going to make a separate thread about this, but then I noticed Malvad's post, so I'll post here instead.

During the original Ministry of Culture discussion for what later became the Democratic Union, there was an idea of using it as "regional World Assembly", of sorts.

The union would make decisions on the Issues nations are sent game-side. Then we could discuss various degrees of enforcement: some decisions would be just recommendations; others would be obligatory, in the sense that nations which did not pick the Union-endorsed option on an issue would be expelled, and so on.

I'll post below a proposal I had drafted at the time about how this could work. Of course, since then the DU has evolved and diverged from that original conception, so my old proposal is not directly applicable. But it can be used for discussion and brainstorming, both on the specifics and on the general idea that Malvad and I presented.
r3n's old DU proposal:
Since we are talking about TNP Union, I am thinking that we could model this roughly after the European Union. Here is my proposal:

There are two legislative bodies, the NP Commission and the NP Parliament.

The Commission comprises one Commissioner per portfolio (we can use this for the list of portfolios). Commissioners are elected every X weeks, everyone with a (WA?) nation in TNP can submit a candidacy for Commissioner on the forum, and every (WA?) nation in TNP can vote in elections for Commissioners.

The Parliament comprises of everyone with a (WA?) nation in TNP that sign up for it on the forum.

Each Commissioner has legislative initiative on issues within their portfolio. This means that they can start motions of the type "For issue X, The North Pacific Union adopts choice Y as a directive". Then, the Parliament will vote to uphold or reject each of these motions. The upheld motions will be recorded as TNP Union law.

The Union will have a charter regulating the above. The original charter will be drafted by us, and be put to a referendum among all (WA?) nations for adoption (that will be mostly rubber-stamping, to jump start the theme). Once adopted, the Parliament can be given legislative initiative for amendments to the Charter, which again will be approved or rejected by all (WA?) nations.

The requirements for residency and WA membership will only be enforced at the time of elections for the Commission, to avoid having to run very frequent by-elections. Likewise, at every election round, we will also be doing a clean-up of Parliament membership.

Logistically, the requirements are relatively low and should be manageable. We can utilize our already existing mass-TG system for informing (WA?) nations of elections and votes. We will need to come up with a good system for voting (I am thinking of having a google form that will be maintained as a forum page, such as this one, which we can change for every vote). And the composition and laws of the Union will be maintained in an in-game dispatch, which we will be advertising in-game./quote]
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Yes the creation of a democracy requirement automatically excluded nations, and made the group seem more like an alliance. With the passing of a Collective Defense agreement, a free trade agreement, and a new constitution that will certainly make it lean ever closer to an alliance, the idea of it being a regional electorate is getting harder and harder to envision.
 
Empire of Narnia:
The opposite to the DU shouldn't just be it's evil twin, it should be something regular nations might actually want to be apart of.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I think it can serve both functions - members of the DU could see the other org as a threat, and vice versa, and roleplay accordingly, while internally both of them are very mild and not at all plotting world domination. That would be a very accurate mirror of what goes on a lot of the time IRL.
 
SillyString:
Empire of Narnia:
The opposite to the DU shouldn't just be it's evil twin, it should be something regular nations might actually want to be apart of.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I think it can serve both functions - members of the DU could see the other org as a threat, and vice versa, and roleplay accordingly, while internally both of them are very mild and not at all plotting world domination. That would be a very accurate mirror of what goes on a lot of the time IRL.
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I'm ok with that.
 
SillyString:
Empire of Narnia:
The opposite to the DU shouldn't just be it's evil twin, it should be something regular nations might actually want to be apart of.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I think it can serve both functions - members of the DU could see the other org as a threat, and vice versa, and roleplay accordingly, while internally both of them are very mild and not at all plotting world domination. That would be a very accurate mirror of what goes on a lot of the time IRL.
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That sounds like a great idea actually.
 
But how should this organization be set up and structured? Who should lead it? What will it be called and what will its goal be?

These are questions we must answer before we can have any hope of this other organization's VERY CONCEPTION.
 
Not really. I could bang up a constitution and reason for the org to exist in about an hour.

Hell, I've been considering it anyway.
 
Nierr:
Not really. I could bang up a constitution and reason for the org to exist in about an hour.

Hell, I've been considering it anyway.
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Good, we only miss a leader.
About the name i propose Confederacy of Indipendent Nations.
 
Nessuno:
Nierr:
Not really. I could bang up a constitution and reason for the org to exist in about an hour.

Hell, I've been considering it anyway.
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Good, we only miss a leader.
About the name i propose Confederacy of Indipendent Nations.
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A.) Independent. B.) How about not going the star wars rip off route.
 
When it comes down to it taking names and organizational structure from starwars is just so tired among the top of the list of names taken from star wars is the CIS, Confederacy of Independent Systems and bastardized versions of said.
 
Lord Lore:
When it comes down to it taking names and organizational structure from starwars is just so tired among the top of the list of names taken from star wars is the CIS, Confederacy of Independent Systems and bastardized versions of said.
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In part is true, but i also thought that in opposition to a union we need a confederacy.
 
Nessuno:
Lord Lore:
When it comes down to it taking names and organizational structure from starwars is just so tired among the top of the list of names taken from star wars is the CIS, Confederacy of Independent Systems and bastardized versions of said.
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In part is true, but i also thought that in opposition to a union we need a confederacy.
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But the Union itself is not a Federation, technically the DU itself is a Confederation. Also, you act as if a Confederation is inherently a bad thing or at least the imposition of democracy which it is not.
 
Lord Lore:
Nessuno:
Lord Lore:
When it comes down to it taking names and organizational structure from starwars is just so tired among the top of the list of names taken from star wars is the CIS, Confederacy of Independent Systems and bastardized versions of said.
Click to expand...
In part is true, but i also thought that in opposition to a union we need a confederacy.
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But the Union itself is not a Federation, technically the DU itself is a Confederation. Also, you act as if a Confederation is inherently a bad thing or at least the imposition of democracy which it is not.
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The question of democracy is not a problem since this new organization is mainly directed to those nations that have a very low rate of democracy.
 
Would members of the DU be invited to the new organization or would they be polar opposites?
 
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