Request for Information

Blue Wolf II

A Wolf Most Blue
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TNP Nation
Blue_Wolf_II
I reaffirm my request for release of that thread, not under the FOI Act, but rather under Article 7 of the Security Council's Procedure, which clearly states:

Article 7: Immediate Threats
a. Sometimes, a threat to regional security may be discovered which is of an immediate and pressing nature.
b. In this case, the Council may discuss and vote on the matter outside of the official regional forum.
c. The Council may make recommendations in secret until such time as the Chair determines the immediate and pressing threat has passed, at which point the Chair must account for the Council's votes and recommendations.

The Vice Delegate is the Chair of the Security Council at this time and the current Vice-Delegate is Abacathea. I call upon Abacathea to fulfill Article 7c of the Security Council's own laws.
 
I'd like to thank Sillystring for giving me the time extension. However, I will profer the following in return to the court to be deliberated during my interim absences and even now.

Article 7: Immediate Threats
a. Sometimes, a threat to regional security may be discovered which is of an immediate and pressing nature.
b. In this case, the Council may discuss and vote on the matter outside of the official regional forum.
c. The Council may make recommendations in secret until such time as the Chair determines the immediate and pressing threat has passed, at which point the Chair must account for the Council's votes and recommendations.

Blue wolf has no standing to make this argument under the guise of Article 7 as it was not envoked during the time of the information he's requesting. There was no "immediate threat". What was conducted was a standard security check like any other. Therefore 7.c was not utilized in the instances he's requested the information for, nor has 7.b or 7.c taken place during my tenure as Vice Delegate, nor on a brief lookthrough DD's. Therefore there is no information to supplement to the court covered under this leglislation at this time.
 
Blue wolf has no standing to make this argument under the guise of Article 7 as it was not envoked during the time of the information he's requesting. There was no "immediate threat". What was conducted was a standard security check like any other. Therefore 7.c was not utilized in the instances he's requested the information for, nor has 7.b or 7.c taken place during my tenure as Vice Delegate, nor on a brief lookthrough DD's. Therefore there is no information to supplement to the court covered under this leglislation at this time.

I think you are a bit confused. I am no longer simply requesting the DD thread, I am requesting for the accounting of all Council's votes and recommendations, something they have historically never done, and for the Security Council to honor it's own procedures that they themselves put in place.

What's more, how silly is it to declare that only Immediate Threats threads, once the threat is passed or vanquished, will be accounted for but not the mundane, everyday threats? That argument makes absolutely no sense. Clearly the Council's recommendations to then Vice-Delegate DD (which he obviously thought the "threat" was "Immediate" in the sense that the matter was time sensitive) were made in secret, as they are in the secret SC sub-forum only they can view. Article 7c, however, doesn't say the Chair must account for so called "Immediate Threat recommendations" it only says "recommendations in secret" and since everything the SC recommends is currently made in secret, that means every recommendation and vote they've made, assuming the threat has passed, must be accounted for in terms of Votes and the Recommendation itself in order for the Security Council to be in compliance with the Procedures that are suppose to government it.

Furthermore, Abacathea, if what you're saying is correct and this law only applies to "Immediate Threats", whatever those might be, doesn't Article 7 seem to imply that the Security Council is usually of an open and non-secretive manner? After all, why would the SC need a law stating it has the right to make recommendations in secret, but only on Immediate Threats, when everything the SC does is in secret? I submit that this law is stating that all Security Council recommendations are to be in public view unless there is an immediate threat at which point, and only then, may the SC vote in private.

So on that note I reiterate, I call upon the Chair of the Security Council to publicly account for all recommendations and votes that the Security Council has made since it has existed, in its current incarnation at least, except for those that can be proven to still be immediate and present threats to The North Pacific.



Oh, and just for the record, I'm also arguing that former Vice-Delegate DD thought the threat was "Immediate" when he asked the Security Council for it's recommendations. He may not have specifically stated "I invoke Article 7 of the Security Council Procedures and declare this to be an Immediate Threat" (because that's silly) but clearly, given that the matter was time sensitive, or immediate being the word one might use, and given the fact this recommendation was in secret, he was obviously invoking this Article. Not that this specific recommendation particularly matters in the large scheme of things now that I'm asking for the accounting of all Security Council votes and recommendations, but I just wanted to put that out there.
 
If I may, the requirement is not that the full details of a discussion be published. The requirement in Article 7 is that the existence and nature of a recommendation be published. When no formal vote or recommendation is made, the requirement may be difficult to apply. I don't know whether that is the case or not, however.
 
Technically, the law only say the Chair "must account for the Council's votes and recommendations" but doesn't say how. This is probably intended as a brief synopsis of the vote, if one occurred, and the recommendations made.

The easiest way to do this, of course, would be to just release the entire thread, especially in mundane matters, such as endoswappers from 3 years ago whose nations have long since CTEd.
 
Article 7 is not about routine discussion of endoswappers. It's about exceptional circumstances which require urgent action.
 
"Exceptional circumstances which require urgent action"? You mean like the time when the Security Council created a separate secret forum for them to discuss a possible Delegate coup that never happened?

Say, Article 7 does allow just that to occur, doesn't it? The description of events is a perfect match to the powers outlined in Article 7c. So, that would mean the public needs to be informed of all votes and recommendations that happened in that secret forum, doesn't it?

The Security Council hasn't done that yet, have they?
 
Blue Wolf II:
"Exceptional circumstances which require urgent action"? You mean like the time when the Security Council created a separate secret forum for them to discuss a possible Delegate coup that never happened?

Say, Article 7 does allow just that to occur, doesn't it? The description of events is a perfect match to the powers outlined in Article 7c. So, that would mean the public needs to be informed of all votes and recommendations that happened in that secret forum, doesn't it?

The Security Council hasn't done that yet, have they?

I don't believe the Security Council has ever created a separate offsite forum from this one, located at forum.thenorthpacific.org / s13.zetaboards.com/TNP. (Article 7 is aimed more at IRC than at other offsites, to be clear.)

Assuming it had however, for Article 7 to have applied Article 7 would have to have been in force. Were these procedures adopted at the time of the incident or incidents you are referring to?
 
I don't believe the Security Council has ever created a separate offsite forum from this one,

The law doesn't say offsite forum, it says "outside of the official regional forum". The Admin forums count as being outside of the official regional forum, as TNP laws generally do not apply to Admin actions or discussions. By letter of the law, the Security Council doesn't need to create a new website to be outside of the official regional forum.

Were these procedures adopted at the time of the incident or incidents you are referring to?

I don't know. I can't find the Security Council votes on its Procedure, so I am forced to assume they are in a secret Security Council forum I don't currently have the masking to see. Regardless, however, this request still applies to all votes and recommendations since Article 7 was passed. I'm just bringing up specific examples for grins and giggles.
 
Blue Wolf II:
I don't believe the Security Council has ever created a separate offsite forum from this one,

The law doesn't say offsite forum, it says "outside of the official regional forum". The Admin forums count as being outside of the official regional forum, as TNP laws generally do not apply to Admin actions or discussions. By letter of the law, the Security Council doesn't need to create a new website to be outside of the official regional forum.
The constitution defines the official regional forums as:
Constitution:
1. The Regional Forum will be located at http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/.
Where are you getting the letter of the law that part of the regional forum is not part of it?
Blue Wolf II:
Were these procedures adopted at the time of the incident or incidents you are referring to?

I don't know. I can't find the Security Council votes on its Procedure, so I am forced to assume they are in a secret Security Council forum I don't currently have the masking to see. Regardless, however, this request still applies to all votes and recommendations since Article 7 was passed. I'm just bringing up specific examples for grins and giggles.

The Vote.
The Discussion.
 
Eluvatar:
Constitution:
1. The Regional Forum will be located at http://s13.zetaboards.com/TNP/.
Where are you getting the letter of the law that part of the regional forum is not part of it?
And indeed the Regional Forum is located at s13.zetaboards.com/TNP...but it doesn't specifically state that the regional forum is s13.zetaboards.com/TNP, only that it's located there. :P

Oh, and I don't think this Article can't be applied retroactively, since ex post facto usually refers to criminal law, not a Procedure.

Edit:

And the Bill of Rights agrees with me:
The Bill of Rights for all Nations of The North Pacific:
9. [...] No governmental authority shall have power to adopt or impose an ex post facto law or a bill of attainder as to any act for purposes of criminal proceedings.
Strongest ?
 
Article 7 defines and regulates a particular form of SC activity. It doesn't regulate the activities it didn't define.

Activities that predate it, do not fall under its definition.
 
I'd like to make a comment on 'standing' in terms of FOIA requests.

"Journalists", "Historians", etc., would have standing in obtaining any and all information for news reporting purposes.

Since Journalists, etc.,,, are not a special class of citizen with special rights, it implies that any citizen who seeks any kind of information for any purpose whatsoever is entitled to that information (provided the release of that information is not a security issue) just because they want to see it out of curiosity or even to paper the bottom of bird cages if that's their intent.

As a rule, matters of "standing" are legalistic and the purvey of the Court to determine as a general issue and only apply to matters concerning whether or not one is directly injured in terms of filing a case. I personally disagree with the Court passing the buck on this issue. :2c:
 
Article 7: Immediate Threats
a. Sometimes, a threat to regional security may be discovered which is of an immediate and pressing nature.
b. In this case, the Council may discuss and vote on the matter outside of the official regional forum.
c. The Council may make recommendations in secret until such time as the Chair determines the immediate and pressing threat has passed, at which point the Chair must account for the Council's votes and recommendations

We have to consider that all these things follow a logical pattern and aren't effected singularly, (otherwise 7b would make zero sense) therefore, it stands to reason that in the case of an immediate threat, a, then b, then C occurs, however, in so far as my term and DD's goes, nothing ever took place OUTSIDE OF THE OFFICIAL REGIONAL FORUM thus C never occurred, thus there is no information, at least not archived that I'm aware of that can be released under this request.

The long term reprocussions, especially for me here, not to mention the Council, are something you either haven't taken into account, or simply don't care much about, either way, it requires me to give strong consideration to all aspects of what this is going to entail. When this was thrown at me when I came to office, I offered transparency for the future, I offered to go forward that way, but this, is going to imphinge on that greatly, especially when the bulk of my time which should be spent looking for current threats is going to have me in the graveyard digging up skeletons for your amusement.

I have some serious pondering to do, including consulting with the SC, and no, before you ask, I will be consulting with them in private. What angers me about all this, is you're essentially coming after me granted indirectly, because two people you like were rejected by DD, and to be honest, that outright annoys me.

If you want me to continue with my original intent of moving forth with transparency, it would be a damn sight easier to let me do that, than burden me with the serious amount of work you're potentially about to, I have no shame in admitting you're going to grind everything else I'm working on to a halt that will most likely take me weeks to sort out at best. You will certainly not be thanked for it at the end of it.

That said, if there's a middle ground that can be met in here, I'm open to hearing it.
 
Abacathea:
I have some serious pondering to do, including consulting with the SC, and no, before you ask, I will be consulting with them in private. What angers me about all this, is you're essentially coming after me granted indirectly, because two people you like were rejected by DD, and to be honest, that outright annoys me.
Heh. To be honest with you, I really don't interact with Rach and Madjack all that much. Sure I think I raided with Rach a few times, but I've raided with plenty of people, so that's nothing special.

This really has nothing to do with who the people were that were rejected. What irked me was that Democratic Donkeys talked about the matter so openly and yet he and the Security Council refused to release their thread publicly with no better reasoning that "wank off, peasant".

I'm sorry that you now have to account for the mess he and the Security Council dumped upon you, but don't blame me for calling them out on their behavior.

Abacathea:
If you want me to continue with my original intent of moving forth with transparency, it would be a damn sight easier to let me do that, than burden me with the serious amount of work you're potentially about to, I have no shame in admitting you're going to grind everything else I'm working on to a halt that will most likely take me weeks to sort out at best. You will certainly not be thanked for it at the end of it.

If you feel like this obligation is going to give you nightmares, I would be more than willing to put my money where my mouth is and offer to help you. I was a Security Council member myself not too long ago and had access to most, although admittedly not all, of the secret forums the Security Council likes to muck around in. I've read many of the topics you are now being asked to release, even posted and voted in a few of them. I have no problem doing some of the leg work for you, leaving you ample time to fulfill your other duties as Vice-Delegate. Just grant me the access and I can get to work immediately.

This isn't a personal attack against you, Aba, you're simply an innocent bystander caught out to sea in the middle of a storm. Let me work with you and we can get through this smoothly. For your efforts, you'll be remembered as the Vice Delegate that opened up the shadowy world of the Security Council to the people who are suppose to be able to monitor the Security Council and whom the SC is legally accountable to, the Regional Assembly. That something that will certainly count when elections come, don't you think?
 
Give me a few days. I believe there is some way we can come to a middle ground. I have an idea which I'm toying with, it might be a better fit for going forward than backwards. But it'll be what you want, a transition towards those ends, if you'll give me time to move as I wish. A compromise if you will.
 
Blue Wolf II:
I am more than happy to work with you on this matter and, again, I offer my assistance as needed.
I need to hit the hay, but I'll try and touch base with you in the next 24 hours on IRC. I have an idea I'd like to move forward with, and I think might appease yourself and to be honest a lot of people in TNP in terms of transparency. After tomorrow night though the move begins and it's a case of trying to get broadband installed in the new place as soon as possible, but we'll get something resolved either way.

I would prefer a realtime conversation with you were possible at all. Progress can be made here, it just takes willingness on both sides, and I know you'll work with me in that respect Blue.
 
In keeping with Blue's request and desire to see more transparency in the workings of the Security Council, we've met on a middle ground.

The first being I will release the thread pertaining to Nierr and Rach's applications to join the RA. I simply have to find them first, when r3n's back I'll discuss with him where is best to move these threads too.

The second, and the biggest change, will be the introduction of a new system pertaining to how the security checks play out. Blue and I both agree with the Council's view that certain activities should remain within the scope of the SC in order to allow them to perform their functions unobstructed. However, transparency is possible and achievable.

As a result, any new Security Applications that are ran through the Council from this point forward will have a post made to a dedicated thread with information regarding the check, members who were in favour, members who were against, what the vice's decision was etc...

It is the hope of both Blue and I this will be a happy middle ground for everyone and a progression forwards for the region and the SC.
 
Abacathea:
As a result, any new Security Applications that are ran through the Council from this point forward will have a post made to a dedicated thread with information regarding the check, members who were in favour, members who were against, what the vice's decision was etc...
I don't think you can unilaterally make such a decision that is binding on future Vice Delegates.
 
Sure, but the "from this point forward" made it sound like it was for longer than the rest of Aba's term.
 
Sanctaria:
Sure, but the "from this point forward" made it sound like it was for longer than the rest of Aba's term.
No no. I know I don't have the power to introduce such a thing. But for as long as I am chair this will be my push towards transparency of some respect ??
 
Abacathea:
The first being I will release the thread pertaining to Nierr and Rach's applications to join the RA. I simply have to find them first, when r3n's back I'll discuss with him where is best to move these threads too.
Did this ever happen? :)
 
It didn't. But it should. Thanks for reminding me. I'll get on it later once I discuss with r3n. :) man o my word and all that jazz :)
 
Apologies if this is posted in the wrong area. Please move if need be.

After reading the released thread, I'm compelled to point out that DD's and FEC's interpretation of the relevant Law is flawed:

Chapter 6; Section 6.1; Clause 5 of the Legal code:
5. Forum administration will have 14 days to evaluate Regional Assembly applicants and verify that they are not using a proxy or evading a judicially-imposed penalty.The Vice Delegate will have 3 days to perform a security assessment of the applicant. All security assessments will be performed in consultation with the Security Council, and in accordance with all laws of The North Pacific.
My read (and intention as part author of the legislation), is the VD needs a lawful reason to reject an RA applicant. Consultation with the SC is not the only requirement. I'd also like to point out the meaning of consultation:

1.a meeting for deliberation, discussion, or decision. 2. to seek advice or information from; ask guidance from.

Just telling the SC you think someone is a risk isn't quite good enough. The SC is charged with security after all. :eyebrow: Consultation is a two-way process.

Finally, an excerpt from the released thread:

DD:
I am inclined to reject their applications because I have always been annoyed at the people who register simply to vote in our elections, and then disappear. It is not a specific threat, but it is a threat to me nonetheless.
Can someone explain to me how this is lawful?
 
After reading the released thread, I'm compelled to point out that DD's and FEC's interpretation of the relevant Law is flawed:

Chapter 6; Section 6.1; Clause 5 of the Legal code:
5. Forum administration will have 14 days to evaluate Regional Assembly applicants and verify that they are not using a pr
My read (and intention as part author of the legislation), is the VD needs a lawful reason to reject an RA applicant. Consultation with the SC is not the only requirement. I'd also like to point out the meaning of consultation:

1.a meeting for deliberation, discussion, or decision. 2. to seek advice or information from; ask guidance from.

Just telling the SC you think someone is a risk isn't quite good enough. The SC is charged with security after all. :eyebrow: Consultation is a two-way process.

As Co-Author of the SC Consultation amendment, I too must concur with Mr. Atorius.
 
If the intent was to required VD's to have a lawful reason for rejecting an applicant "in accordance with all TNP laws" doesn't get us there.

What does this mean? I like that there is an "and" before the clause meaning consultation with the SC is something different than the clause quoted. Still, I feel this is fairly ambiguous. It appears from the thread that DD was concerned about the potential security threat Madjack and Rach presented. In essence, they may seek to use their RA seats to vote only based upon their outside entanglements. One could argue that DD feared these two applicants running afoul of the "Fraud" clause of the Legal code.

While no legal citation was provided in the thread, that doesn't mean the actual conversation was not in accordance with the law. If the law states fraud is a crime and the reasoning DD used to reject madjack and Rach was "in accordance" with such thinking - as it appears it was - seems fairly clear cut.

Saying that there was no reason that DD needed to provide is a little different than the wording of the clause in the legal code, however.
 
Punk D:
While no legal citation was provided in the thread, that doesn't mean the actual conversation was not in accordance with the law.
I beg to differ. DD was mandated to conduct security assessments in accordance with all laws of the North Pacific. As far as I know, there is no legal code stipulation against annoying DD.

Punk D:
It appears from the thread that DD was concerned about the potential security threat Madjack and Rach presented.
How it appears is irrelevant. Did Rach and MadJack constitute a security threat? Some evidentiary documentation might be helpful..or not. I'm guessing there is none.
 
PaulWallLibertarian42:
After reading the released thread, I'm compelled to point out that DD's and FEC's interpretation of the relevant Law is flawed:

Chapter 6; Section 6.1; Clause 5 of the Legal code:
5. Forum administration will have 14 days to evaluate Regional Assembly applicants and verify that they are not using a pr
My read (and intention as part author of the legislation), is the VD needs a lawful reason to reject an RA applicant. Consultation with the SC is not the only requirement. I'd also like to point out the meaning of consultation:

1.a meeting for deliberation, discussion, or decision. 2. to seek advice or information from; ask guidance from.

Just telling the SC you think someone is a risk isn't quite good enough. The SC is charged with security after all. :eyebrow: Consultation is a two-way process.

As Co-Author of the SC Consultation amendment, I too must concur with Mr. Atorius.
When was that amendment made? Keep it in mind that the SC may have been using the old version of that section as it was in place at the time. I'm not 100% sure though.

DD believed they were a security threat and acted accordingly. Multiple nations and high profile game players all joining before an election is to begin is suspicious behaviour and may be a risk to our regional security.

Yes people doing that may annoy DD and others. But from the opening post and the follow up discussion you can see that DD was not alone in believing that it was a potential security risk. The RA exercised its right to overturn the rejection immediately after. Rach left the RA not long after the election and Nierr stuck with the region and still visits us occasionally.

Nothing about the discussion or the action was illegal. Security threat was intentionally left vague to allow the Vice Delegate to make decisions to protect our regional security and additionally to make political decisions (such as PNG) that are supported by the government. I have no issue with DDs decision or the discussion process.
 
Honestly I cannot speak for DD's thinking at the time, nor will I be seeking to get him to do so. The initial FOI request was for the thread, which I have complied with. There is no onus here to dig further into DD's thinking or reasoning at this point.

What I can say is this, the particular players in question may not have pinged off my own security alert, however, were other high profile and well known players have attempted to sign up to the RA coincidentally around the time of elections, it's not beyond reason I would have queried them too. I know at least once in my time as VD i've had to consult the SC regarding players applying.

The ultimate and end goal, will always come down to security of the region beyond anything else. I fail to see why being thorough in that regard especially in the way DD was is a bad thing. :)
 
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