constitutional change proposal

It may be useful to think of Formal Debate as a five day delay between when a bill is moved to vote and when the text is finalized. It was implemented to stop the pattern of people moving for a vote as a way of attracting attention to their proposal, and then retracting their motion once debate had started up again.
 
Gracius Maximus:
Ator People:
flemingovia:
Can you explain how this breaks clause 2? Clause 2 is quite specific: To quote it in full it says this:

2. Each Nation's rights to free speech, free press, and the free expression of religion shall not be infringed, and shall be encouraged, by the governmental authorities of the region. Each Nation has the right to assemble, and to petition the governmental authorities of the region, including the WA Delegate, for the redress of grievances. The governmental authorities of the region shall act only in the best interests of the Region, as permitted and limited under the Constitution.
Click to expand...

Now you may wish it went further and spoke of separation of church and state, but all it says concerning religion is that a nation's free expression of religion shall not be infringed. That right is specifically and explicitly protected by my proposal.

So you can rest easy, Ator People. Clause 2 of the Bill of Rights remains virgo intacta.
Click to expand...
Not only does it require that free expression of religion not be infringed, it also requires that the aforementioned expression "be encouraged". It seems to me that it's a valid point to suggest that the establishment of an official religion might discourage expression of another religion, even if it is still, "protected."
Click to expand...
The Anti-Pope will encourage the expression of any and all religions counter to Flemgovianism.
Click to expand...
And in keeping with the spirit of GM's post, I think we should, if this law passes, also have a Cheese God Fiqh for those who do not recognize the Flemingingovia Deity.
 
People have freedom, under the constitution, to worship the cheese god. If you want to set up a fiqh that is up to you.

In fact, if you wish to introduce a constitutional amendment recognising the cheese hoed, that is your right.

Democracy is wonderful.
 
[me]smites the minister, turning him very slowly into a pillar of salt.

You may notice excessive sweatiness until the transformation is complete.
 
flemingovia:
flemingovia smites the minister, turning him very slowly into a pillar of salt.

You may notice excessive sweatiness until the transformation is complete.
Click to expand...
C. S. Lewis:
There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.
Click to expand...
 
I will see your C.S.Lewis and raise you one Bob Marley:

The devil ain't got no power over me. The devil come, and me shake hands with the devil. Devil have his part to play. Devil's a good friend, too... because when you don't know him, that's the time he can mosh you down.
Click to expand...
 
Oh my Flemingovia, are we in formal debate yet?
Have we motioned to move to a vote?
I seriously can't keep track of the RA procedures, but I support this bill in it's current form.

:flemingovia1:
 
Lord Byron:
Oh my Flemingovia, are we in formal debate yet?
Have we motioned to move to a vote?
I seriously can't keep track of the RA procedures, but I support this bill in it's current form.

:flemingovia1:
Click to expand...

It is in formal debate as of now, which will end in 3 days-ish.
 
flemingovia:
flemingovia smites the minister, turning him very slowly into a pillar of salt.

You may notice excessive sweatiness until the transformation is complete.
Click to expand...
Your creativity is slipping. Iodized Pillar of Salt would have been more entertaining and nutritious.
 
Mine too. The right to free expression of religion is in our bill of rights for a reason and is explicitly and specifically upheld by this motion.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
So...option: remove freedom of religion from the bill of rights.
Click to expand...
I would support this. I never understood why that was included in a NationStates bill of rights in the first place.

What are we going to do, gather at someone's house and beat them with swizzle sticks until they stop practicing their RL religion?
 
SillyString:
Crushing Our Enemies:
So...option: remove freedom of religion from the bill of rights.
Click to expand...
I would support this. I never understood why that was included in a NationStates bill of rights in the first place.

What are we going to do, gather at someone's house and beat them with swizzle sticks until they stop practicing their RL religion?
Click to expand...
Hint: Take a look at the NS issues, religion is a frequent source of choices or issues; so it makes sense to address it as a off-site forum for an in-game region.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
SillyString:
Crushing Our Enemies:
So...option: remove freedom of religion from the bill of rights.
Click to expand...
I would support this. I never understood why that was included in a NationStates bill of rights in the first place.

What are we going to do, gather at someone's house and beat them with swizzle sticks until they stop practicing their RL religion?
Click to expand...
Hint: Take a look at the NS issues, religion is a frequent source of choices or issues; so it makes sense to address it as a off-site forum for an in-game region.
Click to expand...
That doesn't even make sense - freedom of issue answering is a separate right, and nothing to do with freedom of religion.
 
Religion is a subject matter of the issues. The freedom of choosing issues was not the point of it. I'm sorry that something that simple is too complicated for you.
 
I'm sorry Grosse, but unless I'm also stupid I don't understand your point either. There are many many things addressed in NS issues that we don't consider here off-site because it would be patently ridiculous to do so. I can understand having freedom of religion there simply as a general principle (although if I were to draft a Bill of Rights for TNP, I likely wouldn't explicitly include it), but actually, it's forming a somewhat valuable part of the region here with the religious RP. A debate as to whether to remove it is separate from this one as, as flem says, protection of freedom of religion is specifically built into this bill (which I still don't support, but not because of that).
 
Perhaps now we are in a formal debate situation we ought to be talking about the issue of the actual motion, which is the establishment of Flemingovianism as the state religion and not be distracted by desperate straw man arguments like freedom of religious expression (protected in this motion) and freedom to answer issues as we choose (nothing at all to do with this motion)
 
Romanoffia:
Official State Religions are archaic and outmoded, like monarchies and titles like Lord Poofity-Poof.
Click to expand...
How can it be archaic and outmoded? we have never had one in TNP before. This is not the real-life USA.
 
Religion is a subject matter of the issues. The freedom of choosing issues was not the point of it.
Click to expand...
Of course it's the point of it - your example is flawed. It doesn't matter what the subject matter of an issue is when the right to answer issues however one pleases is already protected. Explicit freedom to answer religious issues freely is extraneous and poor legal form.

So I repeat - what are we going to do, gather at someone's house and beat them with swizzle sticks until they stop practicing their RL religion?

I'm sorry that something that simple is too complicated for you.
Click to expand...
You know, in general you might find that your positions would gain more support from others if you didn't resort to ad hominem attacks just because someone has the sheer gall to not automatically agree with you.
 
I want to encourage everyone to vote in favor of the proposal. Whether or not you are a follower of Flemingovism, you cannot deny the contribution it has made to the vitality of the region. Indeed, it has actually forwarded all expressions of a spiritual or philosophical nature.
 
In all honestly, this sounds like good clean fun that this region could use a bit more of. I, for one, would love to see all announcements from the delegate close with "May Flemingovia bless The North Pacific."
 
For fecks sake flem - just because our idea of fun does not necessarily match up with your idea of fun it doesn't mean that we don't play this game for fun.

We just play it differently.
 
Emm.... I do not see anything in this proposal or this debate that prevents anyone else getting their fun in any way they see fit.

Some people have been treating this thread as if I have been about to storm the gates of the White House and blow my nose with the constitution of the United States of Amerka.

However you play the game... For fecks sake remember that it is not real. and Fun.
 
All this begs the question: If someone started a religion that worshiped the state (i.e.: the government) would then government be unconstitutional as a violation of freedom of religion?
 
Oh, I love burning heretics! They make a wonderful alternative energy light source although witches seem to produce a better variety of colors and tend to be less noisy than heretics. :lol:
 
I have finally voted for this.

As I normally for secular rules and pro-democracy, I should probably explain my choice here.

Flemingovia is a very important figure culturally. This is a bill that he has thought deeply about and put a lot of care into, considering the democratic ramifications as well as his own future here.

Am I sure that the safeguards are sufficient? Not totally.

Does it undermine our democratic credentials? I'm not sure.

Will we all be safer and happier in a Flempowered TNP? Yes, emphatically and absolutely.

There have been times in the past when Flemingovia has saved us from harm. He's protected freedom and democracy and is in many ways our saviour. I would go as far to say he's just as much a 'true hero of the North' as the Minister, possibly even more so.

We should repay him and give God-man an opportunity to shine.

If it doesn't work out, we have the challenge of restoring the system again.

We cannot truly know if Flemingovia is always right. We can only guess. Better then to wager on voting Aye, not losing anything from it, than to vote Nay and irk our benevolent admin still more.
 
Chasmanthe:
I have finally voted for this.

As I normally for secular rules and pro-democracy, I should probably explain my choice here.

Flemingovia is a very important figure culturally. This is a bill that he has thought deeply about and put a lot of care into, considering the democratic ramifications as well as his own future here.

Am I sure that the safeguards are sufficient? Not totally.

Does it undermine our democratic credentials? I'm not sure.

Will we all be safer and happier in a Flempowered TNP? Yes, emphatically and absolutely.

There have been times in the past when Flemingovia has saved us from harm. He's protected freedom and democracy and is in many ways our saviour. I would go as far to say he's just as much a 'true hero of the North' as the Minister, possibly even more so.

We should repay him and give God-man an opportunity to shine.

If it doesn't work out, we have the challenge of restoring the system again.

We cannot truly know if Flemingovia is always right. We can only guess. Better then to wager on voting Aye, not losing anything from it, than to vote Nay and irk our benevolent admin still more.
Click to expand...
Hear, hear!

I have no idea why there are so many people so opposed to this ;~;
 
Chasmanthe:
There have been times in the past when Flemingovia has saved us from harm. He's protected freedom and democracy and is in many ways our saviour. I would go as far to say he's just as much a 'true hero of the North' as the Minister, possibly even more so.
Click to expand...
possibly even more so?

I hope you're joking. Of course Flemingovia is a hero of the North, I doubt even the people voting against this bill would dispute that.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Chasmanthe:
There have been times in the past when Flemingovia has saved us from harm. He's protected freedom and democracy and is in many ways our saviour. I would go as far to say he's just as much a 'true hero of the North' as the Minister, possibly even more so.
Click to expand...
possibly even more so?

I hope you're joking. Of course Flemingovia is a hero of the North, I doubt even the people voting against this bill would dispute that.
Click to expand...
He is joking. Of course Flemingovia isn't as highly rated as a hero of the North as The Minister.
 
Ah well, vote over. The will of the region has been expressed. Thank you to all those who voted, and especially to those who voted FOR this change.
 
50% is not a bad showing! I'm rather encouraged by this result. I think that with a little effort, something similar to this could pass as a legal code amendment. It could go in the Cultural Declarations section, with regional holidays, flag/arms, and NPA regulations.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top