recall of Gaspo as Attorney General

I agree with Blue Wolf II. The benefit of that provision is in some ways to prevent the hassle of having to pass a recall to get them removed. As Gaspo has already been removed from the office of Attorney General he cannot be recalled from that office, as he does not hold it anymore. If we go down that path, will we be trying to recall previous Delegates, or people who resign rather than face a recall motion? It just seems silly to me.

Gaspo is gone and the elections will soon be finished. The strong support for the recall in my opinion is enough and I don't think a recall vote at this stage will achieve anything more.
 
It's technically impossible to recall someone who is not a government official.

The abandonment provision saved us from the bureaucracy that is our proposal process.
 
Oh, I am anticipating that the Speaker will probably block this going to a vote. She has already been told what to do by a number of oligarchs.
 
Belschaft:
flemingovia:
Oh, I am anticipating that the Speaker will probably block this going to a vote. She has already been told what to do by a number of oligarchs.
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Says our current root admin.

:facepalm:
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Admins are not part of the government or judicial body of the region.

I am far too awesome to confuse the two roles. I am a hero, no?
 
punk d:
It's technically impossible to recall someone who is not a government official.
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Yes, this is exactly my concern. A "recall" is not something which is legally defined anywhere, but rather, is relatively universally interpreted as the RA's efforts to exercise its constitutionally granted power to remove an official from office.

Lacking a seated official to remove... what is there to vote upon? :shrug: This is why I have been trying to suggest alternate methods for the RA to communicate its displeasure, such as creating a legal notion of censure.
 
Reading this thread has made me laugh uproariously. As usual, anything proposed by Flem is poo-poohed.
 
SillyString:
punk d:
It's technically impossible to recall someone who is not a government official.
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Yes, this is exactly my concern. A "recall" is not something which is legally defined anywhere, but rather, is relatively universally interpreted as the RA's efforts to exercise its constitutionally granted power to remove an official from office.

Lacking a seated official to remove... what is there to vote upon? :shrug: This is why I have been trying to suggest alternate methods for the RA to communicate its displeasure, such as creating a legal notion of censure.
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Creating such a legal mechanism is a good idea for the future, but even if we started right now would be on the statute books far too late for Gaspo's conduct to be anything but ancient history. Far better to deal with it now by whatever mechanism is available.
 
Ash:
Reading this thread has made me laugh uproariously. As usual, anything proposed by Flem is poo-poohed.
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yes, that does seem to be a recurring theme in TNP, doesn't it? :unsure:


by the way, how soon after being proposed and seconded should this go to vote? does anyone know?
 
flemingovia:
Ash:
Reading this thread has made me laugh uproariously. As usual, anything proposed by Flem is poo-poohed.
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yes, that does seem to be a recurring theme in TNP, doesn't it? :unsure:


by the way, how soon after being proposed and seconded should this go to vote? does anyone know?
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I don't think anybody knows. I've only been here a bit over a month, and people here for YEARS don't know when to motion and second.

As an aside, I think the original Gaspo recall thread should not have been closed. Regardless the ridiculous nature of the way in which the recall motion was made, it is clear that Gaspo abandoned his post as AG and should have been recalled. I mean, we had time to squeeze in two recalls against punk d in, what, like 2 months?
 
Random thought, if the recall of Gaspo from the AG position which he doesn't currently hold fails...does that mean he gets to be AG again? :P

I'm just taking the wacky logic displayed in this thread to its logical conclusion, mind you.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Random thought, if the recall of Gaspo from the AG position which he doesn't currently hold fails...does that mean he gets to be AG again? :P

I'm just taking the wacky logic displayed in this thread to its logical conclusion, mind you.
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BW, aren't wacky debates about recalling a person that no longer holds an office what makes TNP great? Besides, in the absence of a way to censure an elected official this is the best way to show our displeasure at this time.
 
<flemingovia>: Silly, could you please open the vote on the gaspo recall?
<Sanctaria>: Silly, please don't.
+++ ChanServ has given voice to Neenee
<Bel>: @Flem; to do so would be grossly illegal, I suspect
*** Neenee is now known as NeenjaWanders
<Bel>: Well, not illegal
<Bel>: Invalid
<Sanctaria>: The Bill of Rights allows you only recall government officials
<flemingovia>: then the courts can sort that out, if someone takes it to court.
<Silly>: right *now* I can't do anything. I don't have the authority to override the speaker's rules.
<Bel>: It would have as much validity as recalling me as delegate
<Silly>: ....ironically, if r3n's bills pass, I will
<Silly>: >_>
<Sanctaria>: the Legal Code forbids you from punishing a non-government member for something not listed in the Criminal Code
<Sanctaria>: You can't do it, flem.
<flemingovia>: What in the speaker's rules prevent you opening a vote?
<Sanctaria>: 2 votes at a time
<flemingovia>: Ah. OK. I will ask you again when the votes have finished then.

So, folks, we wait some more.
 
Ash:
I've only been here a bit over a month, and people here for YEARS don't know when to motion and second.
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In their defense, the rules were changed only a month or two ago.. and despite the changes going up for public debate and discussion, I'm guessing most people did not bother to read them. :P

The terminology isn't ideal, as it's relatively standard practice for a motion to be followed by a second and to then become binding. I'm trying to do what I can to make sure the new procedures are clear, but it takes time.

Random thought, if the recall of Gaspo from the AG position which he doesn't currently hold fails...does that mean he gets to be AG again? :P
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This also concerns me, as does the prospect of a precedent for recalling anybody from any position, whether or not they hold it, have ever held it, or it even exists. :unsure:

In terms of expressing disappointment... there is literally nothing stopping someone from writing a short censure, opening a new thread in the main RA subforum, and letting RA members who wish to vote do so. Would it have force of law? No, not if anything went to the courts... but it would have the force of public opinion, and when you get right down to it, what is law in TNP except that which we all agree that it is? The Speaker's office isn't even needed for any part of that.
 
Objection. Gaspo does not hold the office of Attorney General, and as such cannot be recalled. Therefore, by simple application of logic, the RA cannot vote to recall him from it.
 
Point of Order.

1. You cannot recall Gaspo from the office of Attorney General as he is no longer occupying that office.

2. The Bill of Rights grants nations the right to recall government officials only. Gaspo is no longer a government official, so we don't have the right to recall him.

3. Recalls are used as a punishment for bad behaviour, displeasure etc. According to the Legal Code, we cannot punish normal citizens (i.e. non-government officials) for crimes not listed in the Criminal Code. Gaspo is a normal citizen and recall is not in the Criminal Code.

By allowing this to go forward you're setting a precedent where anyone can be recalled from an office, regardless of whether or not they hold that office. That's frankly ridiculous and you're in danger of bringing, not only your own office into disrepute, but also the Regional Assembly as a whole.

I ask you to reconsider.
 
Let's just call it a preemptive recall in case he ever gets voted in again!

It's like a get-out-of-jail-free card. We'll just keep it on hand until we need to use it the next go round. Brilliant!
 
Yes, we can elect him to office and then immediately throw him out, forcing a new election!

1346656823263.jpg
 
New plan.

As there are numerous concerns over the legality of this proposal and the precedent(s) it might set for the future, and as I am merely an appointed Deputy Speaker, without the full powers or authority of the elected Speaker, it would be most appropriate to wait until the Speaker has returned and can address this issue himself.

I therefore tentatively schedule a vote on this to begin on July 31st, which will allow the Speaker a few days to acquaint himself with the issues at hand before having to make a decision.
 
SillyString:
New plan.

As there are numerous concerns over the legality of this proposal and the precedent(s) it might set for the future, and as I am merely an appointed Deputy Speaker, without the full powers or authority of the elected Speaker, it would be most appropriate to wait until the Speaker has returned and can address this issue himself.

I therefore tentatively schedule a vote on this to begin on July 31st, which will allow the Speaker a few days to acquaint himself with the issues at hand before having to make a decision.
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I stand in awe. :muffin: :muffin: :muffin:

I was wondering how you would weasel out of that one.

How long did it take the people who run the region on irc to come up with that one? I would love to see the log.
 
Solution:

Trust the regional Assembly to show sense. Let them vote, and if they wish it they can kill the bill, meaning no precedent is set.

If they pass it, trust the regional assembly to frame legislation that in the future negates the need of a recall vote.

Second solution:

Pass the Flemingovian constitution, which would not have these issues surrounding it.
 
ooh. I have a new one: From IRC #tnp

"Bel notes for the record he's spent the last few days telling Asta to just say no"

I think we should all spare a thought for Astarial/silly String, who is not a strong character and has come under immense pressure to kill this recall motion.

Moral of the tale: If you want influence in TNP, get on to #tnp. *




* I have been reminded by SillyString that conversations do not have to take place on #tnp. I am happy to accede that you can lobby officials on many IRC channels.
 
So basically, In This Thread, Flem will get what he wants, even if its blatantly against the law, and if he doesn't, he will, more or less, call you a coward.
 
Blue Wolf II:
So basically, In This Thread, Flem will get what he wants, even if its blatantly against the law, and if he doesn't, he will, more or less, call you a coward.
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I have called nobody a coward. To be easily swayed or weak-willed is nt the same thing at all.
 
flemingovia:
I think we should all spare a thought for Astarial/silly String, who is not a strong character and has come under immense pressure to kill this recall motion.
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flemingovia:
I have called nobody a coward. To be easily swayed or weak-willed is nt the same thing at all.
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I think anyone who knows Asta, and particularly anyone who has argued with her, knows that she is both a strong character and is anything but easily swayed and weak-willed. That she is doing her job as Deputy Speaker instead of the job you would like her to do -- i.e., whatever you say -- doesn't make her weak-willed. It makes her a good Deputy Speaker. We know how much you disdain our constitution and laws, but the region is governed by them as the majority of the region has decided they are preferable to Flemingovian fiat for everything but joking and RP. Asta is doing her job as Deputy Speaker within the law, and in that sense she is showing strong character and strong will against personal attacks and bullying of which you should be ashamed.

Nobody would want Gaspo recalled more than I would, but there's no point in wasting the RA's time and setting ludicrous precedent just so you can make another snarky point about our legal system. And with the tactics you've decided to use here, I would be in favor of killing this recall if for no other reason than simply to annoy you.
 
Cormac Stark:
flemingovia:
I think we should all spare a thought for Astarial/silly String, who is not a strong character and has come under immense pressure to kill this recall motion.
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flemingovia:
I have called nobody a coward. To be easily swayed or weak-willed is nt the same thing at all.
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I think anyone who knows Asta, and particularly anyone who has argued with her, knows that she is both a strong character and is anything but easily swayed and weak-willed. That she is doing her job as Deputy Speaker instead of the job you would like her to do -- i.e., whatever you say -- doesn't make her weak-willed. It makes her a good Deputy Speaker. We know how much you disdain our constitution and laws, but the region is governed by them as the majority of the region has decided they are preferable to Flemingovian fiat for everything but joking and RP. Asta is doing her job as Deputy Speaker within the law, and in that sense she is showing strong character and strong will against personal attacks and bullying of which you should be ashamed.

Nobody would want Gaspo recalled more than I would, but there's no point in wasting the RA's time and setting ludicrous precedent just so you can make another snarky point about our legal system. And with the tactics you've decided to use here, I would be in favor of killing this recall if for no other reason than simply to annoy you.
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If you think that killing this bill just to annoy me will cause me even a moment's irritation you will be disappointed, I am afraid. There has been a lot of anger expressed here and especially on #tnp, but it has not come from me. I simply do not have that much of my ego invested in the game.

In fact, I am quite satisfied. I think this debate has achieved a number of aims, or at least opened up the issues.

in no particular order ....

1. I have had a lot of fun along the way. You remember that this is a game, right? Watching people explode on IRC over something that, in the grand scheme of things, does not matter an iota has a certain morbid amusement.

2. We have exposed flaws in the current judicial system, with the now-infamous two bills rule.

3. We have exposed the problem of a lack of "motion of censure", and that the only legal tool the RA has is to REcall.

4. We have, I think, exposed the flaw in our system in that recalls etc are so slow and are useless towards the end of a term. Basically, government officials can act with impunity towards the end of their term in office, secure in the knowledge that they will be out of office before any recall can pass, or they can resign towards the end of a recall motion and avoid the shame.

5. Now you will probably disagree with me on this one, but personally I think this issue has highlighted the undue influence a few people have in the region through lobbying on irc rather than in the chambers of this Assembly - particularly when the argument is made with as much force as it has been over this issue.

I do, however, apologise unreservedly for using the term "not a strong character" in reference to Silly String, and I withdraw the comment. I also accept that she has done her best to interpret rules handed to her, in the face of immense pressure from all sides and she has done that with integrity. If ever she runs for speaker, I will probably vote for her, since she has handled herself with honour over this.
 
Silly String please do not allow this to go to a vote. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Seriously, if we're all now just going to get petty let's get real petty.

Here's my attempt:

At the beginning of this judicial term I was a "barely beat JAL" justice and Gaspo was riding high as the man to bring law and order to the AG's office. At the end of the same term, I am the Chief Justice and the masses are calling for Gaspo's recall long after his abandonment of his post.

Karma is a Beeeyaaa----nce. Yeah, Beyonce.

...that sound you just heard was me dropping the mic.
 
flemingovia:
5. Now you will probably disagree with me on this one, but personally I think this issue has highlighted the undue influence a few people have in the region through lobbying on irc rather than in the chambers of this Assembly - particularly when the argument is made with as much force as it has been over this issue.
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In case anybody who does not frequent IRC is concerned about this issue, I'd like to comment.

I received a great deal of input, and pressure, on the question of recalling Gaspo - from people both for and against it, in RA threads, via PM, on IRC channels and queries, over the phone, and even in person. Some of it rose to what I would call lobbying, some was discussion, and some was advice I solicited.

I take peoples' thoughts seriously no matter what format they are expressed in; logical arguments have just as much validity whether they are expressed in a well-written post or an IRC debate. I enjoy using IRC to connect with other players or to argue points of law, but it is by no means the only (or even primary) channel by which to ensure that I or the Speaker accommodate important viewpoints.

Rather, when it comes to shaping my own perspective on issues, I would argue that it is debate that happens within the halls of the RA that contributes the most. Even the most interesting discussions on IRC are quickly scrolled off-screen into the log dustbin, but a compelling post can be easily read and reread, broken down and critiqued or complimented. IRC is fast and furious, but forum debates are - or can be, at their best - measured and thoughtful, and both have an important role to play.

Carry on. :)
 
I nominate this thread for best ever!

And SillyString, I think you've done a great job as acting Speaker, from the multiple votes we've had thus far to the Gaspo recall issue. In all seriousness, he abandoned his post and according to the Constibillicode (I love that name!) he no longer holds the position as a result.

Flem, you made some great points as well, especially about censure of government officials. It looks like we have more reforms coming down the line.
 
Ash:
Flem, you made some great points as well, especially about censure of government officials. It looks like we have more reforms coming down the line.
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Thank you. It is nice to receive something other than opprobrium for pushing this matter.

I received a great deal of input, and pressure, on the question of recalling Gaspo - from people both for and against it, in RA threads, via PM, on IRC channels and queries, over the phone, and even in person.
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Seriously? Do some of you people not even have lives?
 
I have been reviewing this thread - and what a jolly jape it was.

When the speaker comes to review this matter, I hope that he will bear in mind this quote from Great Bight's Mum on page 1:

We really do need to adjust the rules. If thie were a situation where the delegate had gone walkabout, we certainly couldn't afford to dilly-dally with the process.
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If we ever get to the point when the delegate goes rogue while the Speaker is on a Leave of Absence and the appointed Deputy insists again on following the rules given to them by the letter and without using their personal judgement, then we will legally be in a total mess.
 
The situation is not analogous.

If the Delegate went "rogue" one could still recall the Delegate, because (s)he'd still be in office. Gaspo is no longer in office. Gaspo isn't even a RA member.
 
We could recall the delegate ... after any two votes in the pipeline had finished chundling their way through the RA.

At the time when GBM made this comment, Gaspo WAS still in office, and WAS still in the Regional Assembly - so the situations are analogous.
 
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