The North Pacific v. Ravania
- Thread starter Abbey
- Start date
Abbey
TNPer
Due to the conclusion of the matter regarding IRC logs, this Court is no longer in recess.
Court Exhibit B: First UDL Official Statement (03:04 AM GMT 20/03/13)
Court Exhibit C: Second UDL Official Statement (10:12 PM GMT 20/03/13)
Court Exhibit D: Ravania's Statement (08:48 PM GMT 20/03/13)
The above is the extent of the evidence that is going to be entered into the official Court Record. All parties should note that the labelling is not that as submitted by each party, in order to maintain sensible numbering. Additionally, the evidence submitted with the indictment has been entered as Court Exhibits - if either party has an objection to this, they must raise this as soon as is reasonably possible, and prior to making any arguments in this next stage of the trial.
Presuming that there is no objection to any of the above, the next period of the trial will be the Arguments stage of the trial, which is going to continue for the next 96 hours. (This has been extended by a day in order to avoid my inconveniently placed RL exam). This time is for arguments on the evidence and the law. This will conclude at 9pm GMT on 15th May.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:51 PM] <Ravania> btw McM is questioning BW in NPA thread
[Mar 18 2013, 05:51 PM] * Tim-Opolis nods
[Mar 18 2013, 05:52 PM] <Solm> Btw: BW is smart. And his ultimate goal is to turn NPA raider.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:52 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Indeed.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Ravania> BW: I've already looked into it, and there is no violation of the NPA doctrine. Also, NPA is a neutral military, we support our friends and allies if they ask for assistance regardless of gameplay alignment.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Solm> And would not of made this move just for lulz, so don't think that we have some upper ground.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Solm> lol should we ask him to help against TBH?
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Heh
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Yus
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Ravania> MCM: Lastly, what made TBH come to us out of all their resources in the raiding world? We are hardly a mercenaries first choice. Or did you offer our services to them? My main concern is that this will set the precedent that we are simply a piling army, that moves whenever we are asked to, particularly, when said mission, has little relevance or benefit to The North Pacific.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Mahaj> yo Rav
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Ravania> MCM: When the region is still split on military grounds, my concern is that a raiding mission such as this which holds little relevance or benefit for The North Pacific could cast the Army in a bad light. I'm supportive of raiding and defending for fun, or when it benefits our interests. I'm not sure support missions of such kind, would either be fun, or beneficial.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Tim-Opolis> That's fantastic
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Mahaj> could we get screenshots?
[Mar 18 2013, 05:56 PM] <Mahaj> if you have chrome, there's an extension that screenshots the whole page, even stuff below the fold
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Solm> wut
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Solm> Gimme this extension
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Mahaj> at least i've heard there is
[Mar 18 2013, 05:58 PM] <Mahaj> hm i think its called screensh00ter
[Mar 18 2013, 05:59 PM] <Ravania> just making a pdf works too
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> okay yeah its not below the fold
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> dissapointing
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> i'll talk to my friend see what he was talking about
[Mar 18 2013, 06:03 PM] <Ravania> --link removed-- <-- here you go
[Mar 18 2013, 06:04 PM] --> Earth joined the channel
[Mar 18 2013, 06:04 PM] --- ChanServ changed mode: +o Earth
[Mar 18 2013, 06:04 PM] <FriarTuck> *glomph*
[Mar 18 2013, 06:11 PM] <Ravania> Hm, I never knew pdf, kept the links provided...
[Mar 18 2013, 06:12 PM] <Tim-Opolis> It does
[Mar 18 2013, 06:12 PM] <Ravania> i can even reply from the pdf...
[Mar 18 2013, 06:14 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Yuup.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:51 PM] * Tim-Opolis nods
[Mar 18 2013, 05:52 PM] <Solm> Btw: BW is smart. And his ultimate goal is to turn NPA raider.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:52 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Indeed.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Ravania> BW: I've already looked into it, and there is no violation of the NPA doctrine. Also, NPA is a neutral military, we support our friends and allies if they ask for assistance regardless of gameplay alignment.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Solm> And would not of made this move just for lulz, so don't think that we have some upper ground.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Solm> lol should we ask him to help against TBH?
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Heh
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Yus
[Mar 18 2013, 05:54 PM] <Ravania> MCM: Lastly, what made TBH come to us out of all their resources in the raiding world? We are hardly a mercenaries first choice. Or did you offer our services to them? My main concern is that this will set the precedent that we are simply a piling army, that moves whenever we are asked to, particularly, when said mission, has little relevance or benefit to The North Pacific.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Mahaj> yo Rav
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Ravania> MCM: When the region is still split on military grounds, my concern is that a raiding mission such as this which holds little relevance or benefit for The North Pacific could cast the Army in a bad light. I'm supportive of raiding and defending for fun, or when it benefits our interests. I'm not sure support missions of such kind, would either be fun, or beneficial.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Tim-Opolis> That's fantastic
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Mahaj> could we get screenshots?
[Mar 18 2013, 05:56 PM] <Mahaj> if you have chrome, there's an extension that screenshots the whole page, even stuff below the fold
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Solm> wut
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Solm> Gimme this extension
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Mahaj> at least i've heard there is
[Mar 18 2013, 05:58 PM] <Mahaj> hm i think its called screensh00ter
[Mar 18 2013, 05:59 PM] <Ravania> just making a pdf works too
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> okay yeah its not below the fold
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> dissapointing
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> i'll talk to my friend see what he was talking about
[Mar 18 2013, 06:03 PM] <Ravania> --link removed-- <-- here you go
[Mar 18 2013, 06:04 PM] --> Earth joined the channel
[Mar 18 2013, 06:04 PM] --- ChanServ changed mode: +o Earth
[Mar 18 2013, 06:04 PM] <FriarTuck> *glomph*
[Mar 18 2013, 06:11 PM] <Ravania> Hm, I never knew pdf, kept the links provided...
[Mar 18 2013, 06:12 PM] <Tim-Opolis> It does
[Mar 18 2013, 06:12 PM] <Ravania> i can even reply from the pdf...
[Mar 18 2013, 06:14 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Yuup.
00:42:11: <Eluvatar> Mr Deputy Minister Sir
00:42:30: <Scandigrad> How may I be of service?
00:42:44: <Eluvatar> I must speak with you urgently about the UDL leak.
00:42:54: <Scandigrad> Very well.
00:43:18: <Eluvatar> The NPA soldier who reproduced private materials from the NPA forum in a secure UDL channel was Ravania
00:44:01: <Scandigrad> On what basis do you know this information?
00:45:41: <Eluvatar> I was present in the secure UDL channel because my duties in the UDL require it
00:45:52: <Eluvatar> Reviewing my logs I found that he shared info
00:46:01: <Scandigrad> May I request a copy of this?
00:46:48: <Scandigrad> And any additional pertinent information?
00:47:09: <Eluvatar> I will PM you a log shortly
00:47:17: <Eluvatar> What information do you desire?
00:48:37: <Scandigrad> Information linking Ravania to leaking information to the UDL willfully, and with full knowledge of his actions.
00:50:12: <Scandigrad> I would like to share this chat with the MoD, with your permission of course.
01:10:06: <Eluvatar> I'm sorry, the log will be slightly delayed
01:10:18: <Scandigrad> Very well.
01:10:29: <Eluvatar> My ethical obligation to report my contravention of UDL secrecy has turned into a lengthy discussion.
01:10:35: <Eluvatar> It appears I am discharged.
01:11:29: <Scandigrad> Well that's a problem.
00:42:30: <Scandigrad> How may I be of service?
00:42:44: <Eluvatar> I must speak with you urgently about the UDL leak.
00:42:54: <Scandigrad> Very well.
00:43:18: <Eluvatar> The NPA soldier who reproduced private materials from the NPA forum in a secure UDL channel was Ravania
00:44:01: <Scandigrad> On what basis do you know this information?
00:45:41: <Eluvatar> I was present in the secure UDL channel because my duties in the UDL require it
00:45:52: <Eluvatar> Reviewing my logs I found that he shared info
00:46:01: <Scandigrad> May I request a copy of this?
00:46:48: <Scandigrad> And any additional pertinent information?
00:47:09: <Eluvatar> I will PM you a log shortly
00:47:17: <Eluvatar> What information do you desire?
00:48:37: <Scandigrad> Information linking Ravania to leaking information to the UDL willfully, and with full knowledge of his actions.
00:50:12: <Scandigrad> I would like to share this chat with the MoD, with your permission of course.
01:10:06: <Eluvatar> I'm sorry, the log will be slightly delayed
01:10:18: <Scandigrad> Very well.
01:10:29: <Eluvatar> My ethical obligation to report my contravention of UDL secrecy has turned into a lengthy discussion.
01:10:35: <Eluvatar> It appears I am discharged.
01:11:29: <Scandigrad> Well that's a problem.
[17:15] <@Gaspo> Alrihgt, Astarial is here to authenticate this log - she will independantly submit a copy to the Court, for verification purposes. Testifying today is Scandigrad, Deputy Minister of Defense for The North Pacific. His testimony is in regards to TNP v. Ravania, and will consist of the story of his involvement in events, and the authentication of a log being submitted as Prosecution
[17:15] <@Gaspo> Exhibit B.
[17:16] <@Gaspo> Scandigrad, do you swear that what you're about to share is the full truth, related to these matters, related to the best of your knowledge, and confined only to things you know, rather than any opinion or speculation?
[17:16] <Scandigrad> I do.
[17:17] <@Gaspo> Please begin.
[17:18] <Scandigrad> Hold on, I'm reviewing the log real quick.
[17:18] <Scandigrad> I was contacted by Eluvatar, who wished to speak to me regarding a leak within the NPA.
[17:19] <Scandigrad> At the time, the Minister was not available.
[17:20] <Scandigrad> My first priority was to determine the authenticity, particularly where this information came from, and whether it was first hand or second hand information.
[17:22] <Scandigrad> Once this criteria had been established, I also began probing for some information to build a case for a court martial. Unfortunately the member in question had left by that time, and we (the Minister and myself) decided it would only impede a general court investigation to conduct a court martial anyway.
[17:22] <Scandigrad> Finally, I do indeed authenticate that the log I have presented is accurate.
[17:23] <Scandigrad> Is there anything further I need to elaborate on, sir?
[17:24] * @Gaspo (~Gaspo@----) Quit (Ping timeout: 194 seconds)
[17:25] <Scandigrad> I'll assume that means no. This concludes my testimony.
[17:28] * Gaspo (~Gaspo@----) has joined #conferenceroom
[17:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Gaspo
[17:28] <@Gaspo> My apologies, folks. No need to start over - Scandi, Asta will provide me with the gap logs. Please continue.
[17:29] <@Gaspo> Asta has shown me the logs in question; there is no further scope needed for your statement at this time. Should a follow-up be necessary, I will contact you. Much obliged, sir.
[17:29] <@Gaspo> ---------------
[17:15] <@Gaspo> Exhibit B.
[17:16] <@Gaspo> Scandigrad, do you swear that what you're about to share is the full truth, related to these matters, related to the best of your knowledge, and confined only to things you know, rather than any opinion or speculation?
[17:16] <Scandigrad> I do.
[17:17] <@Gaspo> Please begin.
[17:18] <Scandigrad> Hold on, I'm reviewing the log real quick.
[17:18] <Scandigrad> I was contacted by Eluvatar, who wished to speak to me regarding a leak within the NPA.
[17:19] <Scandigrad> At the time, the Minister was not available.
[17:20] <Scandigrad> My first priority was to determine the authenticity, particularly where this information came from, and whether it was first hand or second hand information.
[17:22] <Scandigrad> Once this criteria had been established, I also began probing for some information to build a case for a court martial. Unfortunately the member in question had left by that time, and we (the Minister and myself) decided it would only impede a general court investigation to conduct a court martial anyway.
[17:22] <Scandigrad> Finally, I do indeed authenticate that the log I have presented is accurate.
[17:23] <Scandigrad> Is there anything further I need to elaborate on, sir?
[17:24] * @Gaspo (~Gaspo@----) Quit (Ping timeout: 194 seconds)
[17:25] <Scandigrad> I'll assume that means no. This concludes my testimony.
[17:28] * Gaspo (~Gaspo@----) has joined #conferenceroom
[17:28] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Gaspo
[17:28] <@Gaspo> My apologies, folks. No need to start over - Scandi, Asta will provide me with the gap logs. Please continue.
[17:29] <@Gaspo> Asta has shown me the logs in question; there is no further scope needed for your statement at this time. Should a follow-up be necessary, I will contact you. Much obliged, sir.
[17:29] <@Gaspo> ---------------
Session Start: Tue Mar 19 06:16:02 2013
Session Ident: Unibot
[06:16] Session Ident: Unibot (EsperNet, mcmasterdonia|Away) (~Unibot@*snip*)
03[06:16] <Unibot> Hey Mcm
[06:16] <Unibot> Word is you're against this TNP raid in Warhammer
[06:17] <Unibot> Just as a note, a RA vote to override BW's call for the raid support probably would be way more sucessfully with you proposing the vote, instead of someone like Tim.
[06:17] <Unibot> Lack of political capital, UDL membership and all of that.
[06:18] <Unibot> He was talking about proposing the vote though.
Session Close: Tue Mar 19 10:21:21 2013
Session Ident: Unibot
[06:16] Session Ident: Unibot (EsperNet, mcmasterdonia|Away) (~Unibot@*snip*)
03[06:16] <Unibot> Hey Mcm
[06:16] <Unibot> Word is you're against this TNP raid in Warhammer
[06:17] <Unibot> Just as a note, a RA vote to override BW's call for the raid support probably would be way more sucessfully with you proposing the vote, instead of someone like Tim.
[06:17] <Unibot> Lack of political capital, UDL membership and all of that.
[06:18] <Unibot> He was talking about proposing the vote though.
Session Close: Tue Mar 19 10:21:21 2013
[09:38] <@Gaspo> MCM, you're here to give a statement regarding your involvement in the Ravania affair. Please consider yourself under oath - you are obligated to tell the truth to the best of your knowledge, and to refrain from speculation or opinion. Do you have any questions before we begin?
[09:38] <mcmasterdonia> No
[09:39] <@Gaspo> Excellent. In an affidavit, I'm not allowed to ask any questions, so I will simply cede the floor to you as you relate, for the record, your involvement in the discovery and investigation of the Ravania affair.
[09:39] <mcmasterdonia> Ok
[09:40] <mcmasterdonia> So, after having an argument with the Acting Delegate at the time about what I considered to be The North Pacifics military interests, I went away from my computer for a while. When I returned, I had two queries on IRC, one from Tim and one from Unibot
[09:41] <mcmasterdonia> The one from Tim informed me that he was going to introduce an attempt to override the NPA's Deployment in support of the Black Hawks Raid
[09:42] <mcmasterdonia> The one from Unibot, basically said the same, however he mentioned that it would probably be better if I introduce the override to the Regional Assembly, noting that I apparently have more political capital than Tim does in the region.
[09:42] <mcmasterdonia> If I may find the log - one moment
[09:42] <@Gaspo> http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8091362&t=7037527
[09:42] <@Gaspo> it is available here, as Prosecution Exhibit E
[09:43] <mcmasterdonia> Ah, yes that is the log
[09:43] <mcmasterdonia> The part that alerted me to the fact that the NPA forum was compromised, is where he said that word is I was against it
[09:44] <mcmasterdonia> It was clear to me that they were not proposing the deployment override simply because they had found out about it on Nationstates
[09:45] <mcmasterdonia> This led me to making a post in the High Command Centre of the North Pacific Army discussing the potential leak, as well as making a post in the Regional Assembly, NPA Deployment Override thread
[09:45] <mcmasterdonia> Specifically here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8088525&t=7033406
[09:46] <mcmasterdonia> "It also seems that some of the opposition and queries raised in the private NPA thread have made it to the top of UDL already. I'm not sure how this can be addressed without too many ramifications, but it annoys me greatly."
[09:46] <mcmasterdonia> During this time, I had a discussion with Eluvatar about the situation
[09:46] <mcmasterdonia> Which led him to conduct his own private investigations into it, which he subsequently informed the NPA High Command about his findings, which led to the discharge of Ravania from the North Pacific Army.
[09:47] <mcmasterdonia> Just rereading, to make sure that I have got everything.
[09:48] <mcmasterdonia> That's everything.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> Thank you for your statement. Should the Defense wish, you may be recalled for a deposition to answer questions - I trust you will be reasonably available should that need arise.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> Thank you for yoru time.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> *your
[09:48] <mcmasterdonia> I will be available.
[09:48] <mcmasterdonia> No problem at all Gaspo.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> Thank you.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> <END>
[09:49] <@Gaspo> thansk buddy
[09:49] <@Gaspo> *thanks
[09:49] <mcmasterdonia>
[09:49] <@Gaspo> Asta, please PM a complete copy of this log to Abbey.
[09:49] <Astarial> o7
[09:49] <@Gaspo> Thanks.
[09:38] <mcmasterdonia> No
[09:39] <@Gaspo> Excellent. In an affidavit, I'm not allowed to ask any questions, so I will simply cede the floor to you as you relate, for the record, your involvement in the discovery and investigation of the Ravania affair.
[09:39] <mcmasterdonia> Ok
[09:40] <mcmasterdonia> So, after having an argument with the Acting Delegate at the time about what I considered to be The North Pacifics military interests, I went away from my computer for a while. When I returned, I had two queries on IRC, one from Tim and one from Unibot
[09:41] <mcmasterdonia> The one from Tim informed me that he was going to introduce an attempt to override the NPA's Deployment in support of the Black Hawks Raid
[09:42] <mcmasterdonia> The one from Unibot, basically said the same, however he mentioned that it would probably be better if I introduce the override to the Regional Assembly, noting that I apparently have more political capital than Tim does in the region.
[09:42] <mcmasterdonia> If I may find the log - one moment
[09:42] <@Gaspo> http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8091362&t=7037527
[09:42] <@Gaspo> it is available here, as Prosecution Exhibit E
[09:43] <mcmasterdonia> Ah, yes that is the log
[09:43] <mcmasterdonia> The part that alerted me to the fact that the NPA forum was compromised, is where he said that word is I was against it
[09:44] <mcmasterdonia> It was clear to me that they were not proposing the deployment override simply because they had found out about it on Nationstates
[09:45] <mcmasterdonia> This led me to making a post in the High Command Centre of the North Pacific Army discussing the potential leak, as well as making a post in the Regional Assembly, NPA Deployment Override thread
[09:45] <mcmasterdonia> Specifically here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8088525&t=7033406
[09:46] <mcmasterdonia> "It also seems that some of the opposition and queries raised in the private NPA thread have made it to the top of UDL already. I'm not sure how this can be addressed without too many ramifications, but it annoys me greatly."
[09:46] <mcmasterdonia> During this time, I had a discussion with Eluvatar about the situation
[09:46] <mcmasterdonia> Which led him to conduct his own private investigations into it, which he subsequently informed the NPA High Command about his findings, which led to the discharge of Ravania from the North Pacific Army.
[09:47] <mcmasterdonia> Just rereading, to make sure that I have got everything.
[09:48] <mcmasterdonia> That's everything.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> Thank you for your statement. Should the Defense wish, you may be recalled for a deposition to answer questions - I trust you will be reasonably available should that need arise.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> Thank you for yoru time.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> *your
[09:48] <mcmasterdonia> I will be available.
[09:48] <mcmasterdonia> No problem at all Gaspo.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> Thank you.
[09:48] <@Gaspo> <END>
[09:49] <@Gaspo> thansk buddy
[09:49] <@Gaspo> *thanks
[09:49] <mcmasterdonia>
[09:49] <@Gaspo> Asta, please PM a complete copy of this log to Abbey.
[09:49] <Astarial> o7
[09:49] <@Gaspo> Thanks.
<Malashaan>: Hey
<Kiwi>: Heya!
<Gaspo>: Mal, I only have a couple questions
<Gaspo>: so
<Gaspo>: I'll let you take the lead ont hsi, and I will cross-examine.
<Malashaan>: ok
<Malashaan>: Kiwi, you may consider yourself under oath to tell the truth to the best of your knowledge, but not to offer opinion or speculation etc in your testimony. Any questions on that?
<Kiwi>: Nope. I understand.
<Malashaan>: At the time of the events at trial, as documented in Prosecution Exhibit A here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8090590&t=7037527, you were defense minister for TNP, correct?
<Kiwi>: I've been Minister of Defense since late November 2012 so yes, that's correct.
<Malashaan>: I'm just waiting for the prosecution to indicate whether they object to the question before proceeding
<Gaspo>: (no obj)
<Malashaan>: Were you involved in the decision for TNP to support the raid and occupation of Warhammer 40K?
<Gaspo>: No objection.
<Kiwi>: No. It was a unilateral decision made by Blue Wolf. I will note that I am not required to be. The delegate is the Commander in Chief and thus outranks me so he is well within his power to authorise a mission. That said - I may have approved the mission if asked as we had recently has successfully co-operated with the military group in question and it has been my aim to work broaden who we work with.
<Kiwi>: erm I'll just correct myself there - "I may have approved the mission if asked as we had recently successfully co-operated with the military group in question and it has been my aim to work to broaden who we work with."
<Malashaan>: That's fine, I am not questioning the legality of the mission
<Malashaan>: It is my understanding that the occupation was already underway with the support of members of the TNP at the time of the events shown in Prosecution Exhibit A, is this correct?
<Gaspo>: No obj.
<Kiwi>: I can say with reasonable certainty that the order has been issued prior to exhibit A, yes. Considering only a few nations actually ended up participating in the mission, it's possible no nations were in actual "occupation" at the time.
<Malashaan>: Are you in possession of, or are you aware of, any evidence that the conversation in Prosecution Exhibit A was used against TNP's army in Warhammer 40k?
<Gaspo>: no obj
<Kiwi>: That's a tough question. Basically the information gained by Rav could be used politically to the detriment of the army.
<Malashaan>: But you are not aware of any evidence that it was?
<Gaspo>: no obj
<Kiwi>: I have skimmed the trial thread briefly and McMasterdonia was contacted by more than one UDL member if I recall correctly. Considering how tenuous their relationship is... to me it would be enough that right after McM had stated his opinion, he was contacted by members of the UDL who dislike him and have used abusive language in respect of him on numerous occasions.
<Kiwi>: So the mere fact members of the UDL have contacted McM would be that evidence.
<Kiwi>: That may go too far towards speculation though.
<Malashaan>: I believe it is, but we can discuss that in the Courtroom in the next phase of trial
<Malashaan>: Last question from me, it is my understanding that McMasterdonia was also a member of TNP's government at the time of the events shown in Prosecution Exhibit A, is this correct?
<Kiwi>: I don't think so. At the time he wasn't.
<Gaspo>: (no obj)
<Kiwi>: While he was delegate I promoted him to Major General in the NPA which would take effect as soon as he was no longer delegate so he's a high ranking member of the NPA.
<Malashaan>: OK, I'll look into that further. I'm done, cross exam Gaspo?
<Gaspo>: No questions at this time. Reserve right to recall via interrogatories.
<Malashaan>: I believe we're done then - I'll post the log to the Court and request that the prosecution confirms authenticity thereafter
<Gaspo>: Works for me.
<Gaspo>: Thanks Kiwi.
<Malashaan>: Thanks Kiwi
<Kiwi>: Heya!
<Gaspo>: Mal, I only have a couple questions
<Gaspo>: so
<Gaspo>: I'll let you take the lead ont hsi, and I will cross-examine.
<Malashaan>: ok
<Malashaan>: Kiwi, you may consider yourself under oath to tell the truth to the best of your knowledge, but not to offer opinion or speculation etc in your testimony. Any questions on that?
<Kiwi>: Nope. I understand.
<Malashaan>: At the time of the events at trial, as documented in Prosecution Exhibit A here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8090590&t=7037527, you were defense minister for TNP, correct?
<Kiwi>: I've been Minister of Defense since late November 2012 so yes, that's correct.
<Malashaan>: I'm just waiting for the prosecution to indicate whether they object to the question before proceeding
<Gaspo>: (no obj)
<Malashaan>: Were you involved in the decision for TNP to support the raid and occupation of Warhammer 40K?
<Gaspo>: No objection.
<Kiwi>: No. It was a unilateral decision made by Blue Wolf. I will note that I am not required to be. The delegate is the Commander in Chief and thus outranks me so he is well within his power to authorise a mission. That said - I may have approved the mission if asked as we had recently has successfully co-operated with the military group in question and it has been my aim to work broaden who we work with.
<Kiwi>: erm I'll just correct myself there - "I may have approved the mission if asked as we had recently successfully co-operated with the military group in question and it has been my aim to work to broaden who we work with."
<Malashaan>: That's fine, I am not questioning the legality of the mission
<Malashaan>: It is my understanding that the occupation was already underway with the support of members of the TNP at the time of the events shown in Prosecution Exhibit A, is this correct?
<Gaspo>: No obj.
<Kiwi>: I can say with reasonable certainty that the order has been issued prior to exhibit A, yes. Considering only a few nations actually ended up participating in the mission, it's possible no nations were in actual "occupation" at the time.
<Malashaan>: Are you in possession of, or are you aware of, any evidence that the conversation in Prosecution Exhibit A was used against TNP's army in Warhammer 40k?
<Gaspo>: no obj
<Kiwi>: That's a tough question. Basically the information gained by Rav could be used politically to the detriment of the army.
<Malashaan>: But you are not aware of any evidence that it was?
<Gaspo>: no obj
<Kiwi>: I have skimmed the trial thread briefly and McMasterdonia was contacted by more than one UDL member if I recall correctly. Considering how tenuous their relationship is... to me it would be enough that right after McM had stated his opinion, he was contacted by members of the UDL who dislike him and have used abusive language in respect of him on numerous occasions.
<Kiwi>: So the mere fact members of the UDL have contacted McM would be that evidence.
<Kiwi>: That may go too far towards speculation though.
<Malashaan>: I believe it is, but we can discuss that in the Courtroom in the next phase of trial
<Malashaan>: Last question from me, it is my understanding that McMasterdonia was also a member of TNP's government at the time of the events shown in Prosecution Exhibit A, is this correct?
<Kiwi>: I don't think so. At the time he wasn't.
<Gaspo>: (no obj)
<Kiwi>: While he was delegate I promoted him to Major General in the NPA which would take effect as soon as he was no longer delegate so he's a high ranking member of the NPA.
<Malashaan>: OK, I'll look into that further. I'm done, cross exam Gaspo?
<Gaspo>: No questions at this time. Reserve right to recall via interrogatories.
<Malashaan>: I believe we're done then - I'll post the log to the Court and request that the prosecution confirms authenticity thereafter
<Gaspo>: Works for me.
<Gaspo>: Thanks Kiwi.
<Malashaan>: Thanks Kiwi
Session Start: Wed Apr 10 17:05:06 2013
Session Ident: #conferenceroom
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[17:37] <@Gaspo> o/
[17:37] <Ravania> o
[17:37] <Malashaan> Good evening both
[17:38] <Malashaan> Are you both ready?
[17:38] <@Gaspo> Let's get to it, quickly as it were. Rav, you may consider yourself under oath, and obligated to tell the truth to the best of your knowledge. You are to testify only to facts, not speculation, and you may refuse to answer a question on the grounds that the answer may incriminate you, pursuant to TNP's bill of rights. Any questions?
[17:38] <@Gaspo> I
[17:38] <@Gaspo> I'm good to go anytime.
[17:39] <Ravania> okay
[17:39] * @Gaspo nods
[17:39] <@Gaspo> Your witness, Mal.
[17:41] <Malashaan> Ravania, you issued this statement on March 20 http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8088843&t=7033959 - do you believe everything therein to be accurate and truthful?
[17:42] <Ravania> I do
[17:42] <@Gaspo> No objection to that, btw.
[17:42] <@Gaspo> Continue.
[17:44] <Malashaan> In your own words, what was your intent in sharing the information?
[17:44] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[17:48] <Ravania> I felt supported by the replies to the order in the thread.
[17:49] <Malashaan> At the time the events occurred, the order to support the occupation of WH 40K had already been implemented, and was public knowledge, correct?
[17:49] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[17:49] <@Gaspo> (bit of leading, but i'll let that slide
)
[17:50] <Ravania> Yes, an hour before the first TNP-flag was visible in the raid.
[17:56] <Malashaan> In response to the objection, did anyone in the UDL order that you used your position to gather information?
[17:56] <Ravania> No
[17:56] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[17:59] <Malashaan> You said in your original statement (linked earlier) that you were angry, please calrify, who were you angry with?
[18:00] <@Gaspo> no obj
[18:03] <Malashaan> Correction - Ravania previously stated he was angry elsewhere, not in the linked statement, so the question is modified to "did you feel angry, and if so, with whom?"
[18:04] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[18:11] <Ravania> Yes, the kind of anger you feel when you're disappointed by a decision. In this case the decision made by the Acting Delegate to support a raid.
[18:14] <Malashaan> Last question from me, the dissenting opinion you shared was McMasterdonia's, another member of the government at the time in question - is it fair to say your disappointment was with the decision of the Acting Delegate, rather than the Government of TNP as a whole?
[18:21] <Ravania> Yes, the order came directly from the Acting Delegate, I was disappointed with him, not the government of TNP as a whole.
13[18:23] <Malashaan> Thank you Ravania, Gaspo has gone quiet at this time. The Defence notes that he has not indicated whether the Prosecution objects to the previous question
13[18:24] <Malashaan> The Defence is ready for the Prosecution to cross examine - if Gaspo does not return shotly, the Defence proposes scheduling a second session to complete this deposition
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[18:27] <@Gaspo> Yo
[18:27] <@Gaspo> Phone rajng, no objection to last question. Ready for cross?
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[18:28] <Malashaan|> What did i miss?
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:24:12] <Malashaan> The Defence is ready for the Prosecution to cross examine - if Gaspo does not return shotly, the Defence proposes scheduling a second session to complete this deposition
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[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:27:24] <@Gaspo> Yo
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:27:48] <@Gaspo> Phone rajng, no objection to last question. Ready for cross?
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:27:58] * Malashaan| (~Malashaan@----) has joined #conferenceroom
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:28:12] <Malashaan|> What did i miss?
[18:28] <Malashaan|> Yes, ready for cross
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[18:30] <@Gaspo> Alright, first up, you stated previously that noone from the UDL ordered you to gather information. Isn't it true, as Prosecutino Exhibit A shows, that created a pdf in response to a specific request from UDL Lieutenant Mahaj?
[18:31] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:36] <Ravania> Most of the content was already copied and pasted on irc by me, it was just an easier way to share the info. If I recall correctly Mahaj suggested a screenshot not a pdf. And a suggestion is hardly an order.
[18:39] <@Gaspo> So again, since you didn't answer my question, did you create the PDF (which is functionally a series of images of the thread) in response to Mahaj's request?
[18:40] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:44] <Ravania> No, I just thought it was easier than copy-pasting the whole discussion between Blue Wolf and Mcmasterdonia onto irc.
[18:46] <@Gaspo> So when Mahaj asked for screenshots, and you said "just making a pdf works too", and then said "here you go" when sharing the link
[18:46] <@Gaspo> None of that was in response to Mahaj's request?
[18:48] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:49] <Ravania> His suggestions informed how I shared the information, but I had already decided and begun to do so.
[18:49] <@Gaspo> Alright, let's change tacks.
[18:50] <@Gaspo> You were aware that the subforum from which you retrieved the thread, was not a public subforum, correct?
[18:50] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:52] <Malashaan|> I may lose connection briefly, brb if i do
[18:52] <Ravania> Yes
[18:53] <@Gaspo> Did you believe you had the authority to disclose the information therein to non-NPA individuals?
[18:54] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:56] <Ravania> No
[18:58] <@Gaspo> I have no further questions at this time. Unless the Defense has an objection, I'd suggest we both reserve the right to recall this witness for additional questions through interrogatories, should the need arise as a result of future depositions and affidavits. Any problem with that, Mal?
[18:59] <Malashaan|> No problem although i believe Rav is supplementing his last answer
[19:00] <Ravania> I wasn't aware of the details of the law though.
[19:00] <@Gaspo> Does that conclude your response, Rav?
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[19:01] <Ravania> yes
[19:01] <@Gaspo> Mal, for reference, this is all you missed:
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [18:59:22] <Malashaan|> No problem although i believe Rav is supplementing his last answer
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:00:26] <Ravania> I wasn't aware of the details of the law though.
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:00:51] <@Gaspo> Does that conclude your response, Rav?
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:01:00] * Malashaan (~Malashaan@----) has joined #conferenceroom
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:01:11] <Ravania> yes
[19:01] <@Gaspo> If there's nothing further, I believe we can wrap this up, yeah?
[19:02] <Ravania> OOC 1 AM overhere, so please
[19:02] <@Gaspo> I've nothign further, just want Mal to confirm and then you're done.
[19:03] <Malashaan> I believe we're done
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[19:06] <@Gaspo> We're done, I'll PM you a coyp of the log Mal.
[19:06] <@Gaspo> The complete one, sans drops.
[19:06] <@Gaspo> Thank you both for your time.
[19:06] <Malashaan> Thank you
[19:07] <Ravania> goodnight
[19:07] <Malashaan> Night
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Session Ident: #conferenceroom
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[17:37] <@Gaspo> o/
[17:37] <Ravania> o
[17:37] <Malashaan> Good evening both
[17:38] <Malashaan> Are you both ready?
[17:38] <@Gaspo> Let's get to it, quickly as it were. Rav, you may consider yourself under oath, and obligated to tell the truth to the best of your knowledge. You are to testify only to facts, not speculation, and you may refuse to answer a question on the grounds that the answer may incriminate you, pursuant to TNP's bill of rights. Any questions?
[17:38] <@Gaspo> I
[17:38] <@Gaspo> I'm good to go anytime.
[17:39] <Ravania> okay
[17:39] * @Gaspo nods
[17:39] <@Gaspo> Your witness, Mal.
[17:41] <Malashaan> Ravania, you issued this statement on March 20 http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8088843&t=7033959 - do you believe everything therein to be accurate and truthful?
[17:42] <Ravania> I do
[17:42] <@Gaspo> No objection to that, btw.
[17:42] <@Gaspo> Continue.
[17:44] <Malashaan> In your own words, what was your intent in sharing the information?
[17:44] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[17:48] <Ravania> I felt supported by the replies to the order in the thread.
[17:49] <Malashaan> At the time the events occurred, the order to support the occupation of WH 40K had already been implemented, and was public knowledge, correct?
[17:49] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[17:49] <@Gaspo> (bit of leading, but i'll let that slide
)[17:50] <Ravania> Yes, an hour before the first TNP-flag was visible in the raid.
[17:56] <Malashaan> In response to the objection, did anyone in the UDL order that you used your position to gather information?
[17:56] <Ravania> No
[17:56] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[17:59] <Malashaan> You said in your original statement (linked earlier) that you were angry, please calrify, who were you angry with?
[18:00] <@Gaspo> no obj
[18:03] <Malashaan> Correction - Ravania previously stated he was angry elsewhere, not in the linked statement, so the question is modified to "did you feel angry, and if so, with whom?"
[18:04] <@Gaspo> No obj.
[18:11] <Ravania> Yes, the kind of anger you feel when you're disappointed by a decision. In this case the decision made by the Acting Delegate to support a raid.
[18:14] <Malashaan> Last question from me, the dissenting opinion you shared was McMasterdonia's, another member of the government at the time in question - is it fair to say your disappointment was with the decision of the Acting Delegate, rather than the Government of TNP as a whole?
[18:21] <Ravania> Yes, the order came directly from the Acting Delegate, I was disappointed with him, not the government of TNP as a whole.
13[18:23] <Malashaan> Thank you Ravania, Gaspo has gone quiet at this time. The Defence notes that he has not indicated whether the Prosecution objects to the previous question
13[18:24] <Malashaan> The Defence is ready for the Prosecution to cross examine - if Gaspo does not return shotly, the Defence proposes scheduling a second session to complete this deposition
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[18:27] <@Gaspo> Yo
[18:27] <@Gaspo> Phone rajng, no objection to last question. Ready for cross?
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[18:28] <Malashaan|> What did i miss?
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:24:12] <Malashaan> The Defence is ready for the Prosecution to cross examine - if Gaspo does not return shotly, the Defence proposes scheduling a second session to complete this deposition
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[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:27:24] <@Gaspo> Yo
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:27:48] <@Gaspo> Phone rajng, no objection to last question. Ready for cross?
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:27:58] * Malashaan| (~Malashaan@----) has joined #conferenceroom
[18:28] <@Gaspo> [18:28:12] <Malashaan|> What did i miss?
[18:28] <Malashaan|> Yes, ready for cross
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[18:30] <@Gaspo> Alright, first up, you stated previously that noone from the UDL ordered you to gather information. Isn't it true, as Prosecutino Exhibit A shows, that created a pdf in response to a specific request from UDL Lieutenant Mahaj?
[18:31] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:36] <Ravania> Most of the content was already copied and pasted on irc by me, it was just an easier way to share the info. If I recall correctly Mahaj suggested a screenshot not a pdf. And a suggestion is hardly an order.
[18:39] <@Gaspo> So again, since you didn't answer my question, did you create the PDF (which is functionally a series of images of the thread) in response to Mahaj's request?
[18:40] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:44] <Ravania> No, I just thought it was easier than copy-pasting the whole discussion between Blue Wolf and Mcmasterdonia onto irc.
[18:46] <@Gaspo> So when Mahaj asked for screenshots, and you said "just making a pdf works too", and then said "here you go" when sharing the link
[18:46] <@Gaspo> None of that was in response to Mahaj's request?
[18:48] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:49] <Ravania> His suggestions informed how I shared the information, but I had already decided and begun to do so.
[18:49] <@Gaspo> Alright, let's change tacks.
[18:50] <@Gaspo> You were aware that the subforum from which you retrieved the thread, was not a public subforum, correct?
[18:50] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:52] <Malashaan|> I may lose connection briefly, brb if i do
[18:52] <Ravania> Yes
[18:53] <@Gaspo> Did you believe you had the authority to disclose the information therein to non-NPA individuals?
[18:54] <Malashaan|> No objection
[18:56] <Ravania> No
[18:58] <@Gaspo> I have no further questions at this time. Unless the Defense has an objection, I'd suggest we both reserve the right to recall this witness for additional questions through interrogatories, should the need arise as a result of future depositions and affidavits. Any problem with that, Mal?
[18:59] <Malashaan|> No problem although i believe Rav is supplementing his last answer
[19:00] <Ravania> I wasn't aware of the details of the law though.
[19:00] <@Gaspo> Does that conclude your response, Rav?
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[19:01] <Ravania> yes
[19:01] <@Gaspo> Mal, for reference, this is all you missed:
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [18:59:22] <Malashaan|> No problem although i believe Rav is supplementing his last answer
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:00:26] <Ravania> I wasn't aware of the details of the law though.
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:00:51] <@Gaspo> Does that conclude your response, Rav?
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:01:00] * Malashaan (~Malashaan@----) has joined #conferenceroom
[19:01] <@Gaspo> [19:01:11] <Ravania> yes
[19:01] <@Gaspo> If there's nothing further, I believe we can wrap this up, yeah?
[19:02] <Ravania> OOC 1 AM overhere, so please
[19:02] <@Gaspo> I've nothign further, just want Mal to confirm and then you're done.
[19:03] <Malashaan> I believe we're done
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[19:06] <@Gaspo> We're done, I'll PM you a coyp of the log Mal.
[19:06] <@Gaspo> The complete one, sans drops.
[19:06] <@Gaspo> Thank you both for your time.
[19:06] <Malashaan> Thank you
[19:07] <Ravania> goodnight
[19:07] <Malashaan> Night
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Court Exhibit B: First UDL Official Statement (03:04 AM GMT 20/03/13)
Court Exhibit C: Second UDL Official Statement (10:12 PM GMT 20/03/13)
Court Exhibit D: Ravania's Statement (08:48 PM GMT 20/03/13)
The above is the extent of the evidence that is going to be entered into the official Court Record. All parties should note that the labelling is not that as submitted by each party, in order to maintain sensible numbering. Additionally, the evidence submitted with the indictment has been entered as Court Exhibits - if either party has an objection to this, they must raise this as soon as is reasonably possible, and prior to making any arguments in this next stage of the trial.
Presuming that there is no objection to any of the above, the next period of the trial will be the Arguments stage of the trial, which is going to continue for the next 96 hours. (This has been extended by a day in order to avoid my inconveniently placed RL exam). This time is for arguments on the evidence and the law. This will conclude at 9pm GMT on 15th May.
Gaspo
TNPer
The Prosecution will now present its case. For the sake of clarity, we will address each charge in turn.
Espionage
A conviction for espionage requires that a person use their TNP nation or persona to gather information for a non-government-sanctioned entity or group (1.2.6), and that that information be of a type which is not available to the general public, or to citizens. (1.2.7)
Looking to the first element, Ravania is a UDL Lieutenant. The UDL is not a TNP-government-sanctioned entity, and the Defense has introduced no evidence to indicate that it is. As indicated in Prosecution Exhibit A, and uncontested by Ravania in Court Exhibit A, his deposition, Ravania provided information to this organization by use of his access as a TNP citizen and member of the NPA.
As indicated by Eluvatar's statements in Prosecution Exhibit B, the information shared originated in a private NPA subforum. That information remains classified to this day. I am an elected official in TNP, and I can't even see that subforum. In no sense was the information Ravania shared public knowledge. Ravania gave no indication that he believed the information to be public.
These two elements are quite plainly satisfied - Ravania provided information to the UDL, a non-sanctioned entity. That information was not public - it was in fact classified. TNP law indicates no mens rea for this crime - this indicates to the prosecution that a strict liability requirement be read in. This means that Ravania must be found guilty if he indeed committed the alleged acts. The evidence in support of this fact is overwhelming, and leads to the conclusion that Ravania should be found guilty of Espionage against The North Pacific.
Treason
Treason's definition has 4 clauses, though in this case it is the view of the Prosecution that only the first is relevant to this case. The other three clauses apply to Treason in the context of a declaration of war - an interpretation of the law which suggests that Treason is *only* a crime during a declaration of war would be rather ridiculous, which means that these three clauses are optional and meant to apply in cases of treason during war.
Looking then to the first clause, it establishes the following elements:
- arms or material support
- to a group or region
- for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing, the lawful government of TNP or one of its allies
As no mens rea requriement is evident, the Prosecution will again presume strict liability, though if the Defense believes a different standard is appropriate, we are fully prepared to respond.
Looking first to the question of arms or material support, the sharing of intelligence information can reasonably be considered to constitute material support. As previously explained, there are clear facts in evidence which indicate that Ravania provided just this type of information to the United Defenders League.
Turning to the question of a group or region, the UDL is a group. It is also a region. This element is therefore fulfilled.
Lastly comes the purpose element - to undermine or overthrow the lawful government of The North Pacific. As demonstrated in Defense Exhibit D, the information provided to the UDL was used by its leader for precisely this purpose. Unibot used the information Ravania provided to attempt to manipulate The North Pacific's legislature. The North Pacific builds its government on the Regional Assembly - it is the embodiment of our sovereignty and our process. Ravania provided this information to a close confidant and superior, Unibot, who used it to attempt to undermine the delegacy of Blue Wolf. I look forward to hearing the Defense's explanation as to why its client provided information to an individual with a long history of this type of behavior. The Prosecution will have additional comments on this charge in the morning - it is rather late for us.
Espionage
A conviction for espionage requires that a person use their TNP nation or persona to gather information for a non-government-sanctioned entity or group (1.2.6), and that that information be of a type which is not available to the general public, or to citizens. (1.2.7)
Looking to the first element, Ravania is a UDL Lieutenant. The UDL is not a TNP-government-sanctioned entity, and the Defense has introduced no evidence to indicate that it is. As indicated in Prosecution Exhibit A, and uncontested by Ravania in Court Exhibit A, his deposition, Ravania provided information to this organization by use of his access as a TNP citizen and member of the NPA.
As indicated by Eluvatar's statements in Prosecution Exhibit B, the information shared originated in a private NPA subforum. That information remains classified to this day. I am an elected official in TNP, and I can't even see that subforum. In no sense was the information Ravania shared public knowledge. Ravania gave no indication that he believed the information to be public.
These two elements are quite plainly satisfied - Ravania provided information to the UDL, a non-sanctioned entity. That information was not public - it was in fact classified. TNP law indicates no mens rea for this crime - this indicates to the prosecution that a strict liability requirement be read in. This means that Ravania must be found guilty if he indeed committed the alleged acts. The evidence in support of this fact is overwhelming, and leads to the conclusion that Ravania should be found guilty of Espionage against The North Pacific.
Treason
Treason's definition has 4 clauses, though in this case it is the view of the Prosecution that only the first is relevant to this case. The other three clauses apply to Treason in the context of a declaration of war - an interpretation of the law which suggests that Treason is *only* a crime during a declaration of war would be rather ridiculous, which means that these three clauses are optional and meant to apply in cases of treason during war.
Looking then to the first clause, it establishes the following elements:
- arms or material support
- to a group or region
- for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing, the lawful government of TNP or one of its allies
As no mens rea requriement is evident, the Prosecution will again presume strict liability, though if the Defense believes a different standard is appropriate, we are fully prepared to respond.
Looking first to the question of arms or material support, the sharing of intelligence information can reasonably be considered to constitute material support. As previously explained, there are clear facts in evidence which indicate that Ravania provided just this type of information to the United Defenders League.
Turning to the question of a group or region, the UDL is a group. It is also a region. This element is therefore fulfilled.
Lastly comes the purpose element - to undermine or overthrow the lawful government of The North Pacific. As demonstrated in Defense Exhibit D, the information provided to the UDL was used by its leader for precisely this purpose. Unibot used the information Ravania provided to attempt to manipulate The North Pacific's legislature. The North Pacific builds its government on the Regional Assembly - it is the embodiment of our sovereignty and our process. Ravania provided this information to a close confidant and superior, Unibot, who used it to attempt to undermine the delegacy of Blue Wolf. I look forward to hearing the Defense's explanation as to why its client provided information to an individual with a long history of this type of behavior. The Prosecution will have additional comments on this charge in the morning - it is rather late for us.
Abbey
TNPer
Because I'm a twit, and have had so much on my plate that I didn't realise that this deadline came up yesterday, and because I don't think the defense is aware that the Court is out of recess, I'm retroactively extending arguments until Sunday at 5PM GMT.
(I'm also going to attempt to contact the defense as the recess was much longer than I'd hoped it would be.)
(I'm also going to attempt to contact the defense as the recess was much longer than I'd hoped it would be.)
Malashaan
TNPer
Like the Prosecution, for the sake of clarity, the Defence will address each charge separately in presenting its case.
With regards to both charges, The Bill of Rights, Clause 7 states that "a Nation is presumed innocent unless guilt is proven to the fact finder by reasonably certain evidence." The Defence asserts that the Prosecution has failed to meet the level of proof required, namely reasonably certain evidence, with regards to either charge.
Espionage
The Legal Code of the North Pacific defines espionage as "the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region" (1.2.6, emphasis added).
- The Prosecution admits that at the time of the events in question, Ravania was a citizen of TNP and a member of the NPA. Thus, Ravania legally had access to the information that was shared.
- Prosecution Exhibit A begins with Ravania stating that "McM is questioning BW in NPA thread." Thus, at the time of the events in question, Ravania was already aware of the information that was shared.
As stated previously, the law requires that someone uses "a Nation or Persona ... for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region" in order for an instance of Espionage to have occurred. In contrast, Ravania read (i.e., gathered) the information legally in his capacity as a member of the NPA and then shared information that he already had with his colleagues in the UDL.
Under the phrasing of the Espionage law, for a guilty verdict to be reached, a defendant has to do more than merely share classified information of which they are aware, they have come to the forum with the intent of gathering classified information on behalf of an unauthorized group or region.
In sum, the Prosecution has failed to provide reasonably certain evidence that Ravania used his forum account to gather information on behalf of the UDL, rather than merely sharing information which he was already in legal possession of. As Ravania has admitted and apologized for, his actions were a mistake and ill advised, but that is not the question before this Court. This Court is being asked to rule on whether the required elements for an Espionage conviction are present in the evidence of record, and the Defence asserts that this is not the case.
Treason
The Prosecution identifies the following three elements that must be present in order for an instance of treason to have occurred:
- arms or material support
- to a group or region
- for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing, the lawful government of TNP or one of its allies
The Defence agrees with the Prosecution's analysis of the requirements and asserts that these three factors are not demonstrated with reasonable certainty by the evidence of record.
With regards to taking up arms or providing material support, the Prosecution does not allege that Ravania took up arms, leaving "material support" as the behavior at issue. The Defense disagrees with the Prosecution's position that merely providing information automatically constitutes "material support." In order to provide "material support to a group or region" there must exist a group or region engaged in an operation for which support can be provided, and said support must be material. Lacking any specific definition of "material" in the Legal Code, the term presumably takes its standard meaning, namely that the noun it modifies is "relevant and significant." The Prosecution fails to demonstrate that the information shared by Ravania materially supported an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government.
The Prosecution has failed to identify how the UDL's knowledge of the disagreement between two senior members of TNP represents "providing material support ... for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing the lawful government of The North Pacific." In any region, it is almost certain that some members will disagree on issues, particularly ones of significant political importance, such as providing military assistance to another group or region. In fact, it would not be unreasonable to assume that for any given decision; at least one member of the region will disagree. Thus, there is no reason to conclude that UDL's knowledge of McMasterdonia's dissent could, in and of itself, provide material support in "overthrowing or undermining the lawful government," should such an attempt be made.
With regards to providing support "to a group or region," the Defence does not contest that the UDL qualifies as a group or region under the law.
With regards to the requirement that material support is provided "for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing, the lawful government of TNP or one of its allies" (emphasis added), the Defence asserts that the Prosecution has failed to demonstrate this element.
The Prosecution points to Defence [sic] Exhibit D (presumably Prosecution Exhibit D) as demonstrating this element. However, Prosecution Exhibit D merely shows that Unibot was aware of the information and tried to use it to influence McMasterdonia. The Defence asserts that this evidence fails to make a "reasonably certain" case for the presence of this element for two reasons:
1) Prosecution Exhibit D shows Unibot suggesting that McMasterdonia proposes a vote. Within a Democracy such as TNP, asking a member to propose a vote on an issue can hardly be considered an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government. TNP's government works on the principle of people proposing votes on issues. Encouraging members to exercise their Democratic Rights should not be considered an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government; it would be chilling on free speech in the region if this Court were to rule as such.
2) Assuming, arguendo, that the latter actions taken by Unibot can be considered an attempt to overthrow of undermine the government, the Prosecution has also failed to demonstrate that Ravania's actions were taken "for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing the lawful government." The evidence of record merely shows that Ravania shared the information and Unibot later used that information to try and influence McMasterdonia. Again, assuming, arguendo, that Unibot's action can be considered an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government, the Prosecution has provided no evidence at all that Ravania shared the information for the purpose of supporting that action. indeed, there is no evidence that Ravania even knew that Unibot would or had approached McMasterdonia.
In conclusion, the Defence argues that the Prosecution has failed to provide reasonably certain evidence that the required elements of each charge are met by the actions of Ravania. Thus, the Defence asks this Court to rule that Ravania is not guilty on all counts.
With regards to both charges, The Bill of Rights, Clause 7 states that "a Nation is presumed innocent unless guilt is proven to the fact finder by reasonably certain evidence." The Defence asserts that the Prosecution has failed to meet the level of proof required, namely reasonably certain evidence, with regards to either charge.
Espionage
The Legal Code of the North Pacific defines espionage as "the use of a Nation or Persona within The North Pacific for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region" (1.2.6, emphasis added).
- The Prosecution admits that at the time of the events in question, Ravania was a citizen of TNP and a member of the NPA. Thus, Ravania legally had access to the information that was shared.
- Prosecution Exhibit A begins with Ravania stating that "McM is questioning BW in NPA thread." Thus, at the time of the events in question, Ravania was already aware of the information that was shared.
As stated previously, the law requires that someone uses "a Nation or Persona ... for the purpose of gathering information for a group or region" in order for an instance of Espionage to have occurred. In contrast, Ravania read (i.e., gathered) the information legally in his capacity as a member of the NPA and then shared information that he already had with his colleagues in the UDL.
Under the phrasing of the Espionage law, for a guilty verdict to be reached, a defendant has to do more than merely share classified information of which they are aware, they have come to the forum with the intent of gathering classified information on behalf of an unauthorized group or region.
In sum, the Prosecution has failed to provide reasonably certain evidence that Ravania used his forum account to gather information on behalf of the UDL, rather than merely sharing information which he was already in legal possession of. As Ravania has admitted and apologized for, his actions were a mistake and ill advised, but that is not the question before this Court. This Court is being asked to rule on whether the required elements for an Espionage conviction are present in the evidence of record, and the Defence asserts that this is not the case.
Treason
The Prosecution identifies the following three elements that must be present in order for an instance of treason to have occurred:
- arms or material support
- to a group or region
- for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing, the lawful government of TNP or one of its allies
The Defence agrees with the Prosecution's analysis of the requirements and asserts that these three factors are not demonstrated with reasonable certainty by the evidence of record.
With regards to taking up arms or providing material support, the Prosecution does not allege that Ravania took up arms, leaving "material support" as the behavior at issue. The Defense disagrees with the Prosecution's position that merely providing information automatically constitutes "material support." In order to provide "material support to a group or region" there must exist a group or region engaged in an operation for which support can be provided, and said support must be material. Lacking any specific definition of "material" in the Legal Code, the term presumably takes its standard meaning, namely that the noun it modifies is "relevant and significant." The Prosecution fails to demonstrate that the information shared by Ravania materially supported an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government.
The Prosecution has failed to identify how the UDL's knowledge of the disagreement between two senior members of TNP represents "providing material support ... for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing the lawful government of The North Pacific." In any region, it is almost certain that some members will disagree on issues, particularly ones of significant political importance, such as providing military assistance to another group or region. In fact, it would not be unreasonable to assume that for any given decision; at least one member of the region will disagree. Thus, there is no reason to conclude that UDL's knowledge of McMasterdonia's dissent could, in and of itself, provide material support in "overthrowing or undermining the lawful government," should such an attempt be made.
With regards to providing support "to a group or region," the Defence does not contest that the UDL qualifies as a group or region under the law.
With regards to the requirement that material support is provided "for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing, the lawful government of TNP or one of its allies" (emphasis added), the Defence asserts that the Prosecution has failed to demonstrate this element.
The Prosecution points to Defence [sic] Exhibit D (presumably Prosecution Exhibit D) as demonstrating this element. However, Prosecution Exhibit D merely shows that Unibot was aware of the information and tried to use it to influence McMasterdonia. The Defence asserts that this evidence fails to make a "reasonably certain" case for the presence of this element for two reasons:
1) Prosecution Exhibit D shows Unibot suggesting that McMasterdonia proposes a vote. Within a Democracy such as TNP, asking a member to propose a vote on an issue can hardly be considered an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government. TNP's government works on the principle of people proposing votes on issues. Encouraging members to exercise their Democratic Rights should not be considered an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government; it would be chilling on free speech in the region if this Court were to rule as such.
2) Assuming, arguendo, that the latter actions taken by Unibot can be considered an attempt to overthrow of undermine the government, the Prosecution has also failed to demonstrate that Ravania's actions were taken "for the purpose of undermining or overthrowing the lawful government." The evidence of record merely shows that Ravania shared the information and Unibot later used that information to try and influence McMasterdonia. Again, assuming, arguendo, that Unibot's action can be considered an attempt to overthrow or undermine the government, the Prosecution has provided no evidence at all that Ravania shared the information for the purpose of supporting that action. indeed, there is no evidence that Ravania even knew that Unibot would or had approached McMasterdonia.
In conclusion, the Defence argues that the Prosecution has failed to provide reasonably certain evidence that the required elements of each charge are met by the actions of Ravania. Thus, the Defence asks this Court to rule that Ravania is not guilty on all counts.
Abbey
TNPer
Judgement of the Court of The North Pacific
After deliberating on the case of The North Pacific v. Ravania, the Court rules as follows:
Ravania is found Guilty on the charge of Espionage.
Ravania is found Not Guilty on the charge of Treason.
Reasoning:
On the charge of Espionage, the Court felt that the Prosecution showed sufficient evidence that information was being gathered intentionally by Ravania in order to share with people who did not have the authority to see that information. The Court rejects the Defence's argument that Ravania's actions did not satisfy the requirement of gathering information, as the Court feels that the production of a pdf file was sufficient to be included in a more normal definition of "to gather".
On the charge of Treason, the Court felt that the Prosecution did not show, sufficiently, that the information was provided for the purpose of undermining the legitimate government of the region. Exposing disharmony, perhaps, but for this to count as "undermining" it would require an incredibly loose definition of "to undermine", which the Court feels would be inappropriate. Treason, with the associated harsh penalties, calls for a stricter definition with much more intent than was shown by the Prosecution.
Sentence:
The Court orders that Ravania's voting rights be stripped for a period of 6 months. This means that, should Ravania join the Regional Assembly during the next six months, they will have no right to vote.
- Discord
- COE#7110
Ravania will not be able to vote until November 22nd. I will enforce this sentence during my term, and will inform my successor.Abbey Anumia:
Gaspo
TNPer
While the prosecutino appreciates the Court's work on this subject, it vehemently protests the frankly pathetic sentence handed down by the Court in this matter. Defendant exhibited no sign of regret, remorse or apology, and made no attempt to take responsibility for his actions, yet has had no restrictions placed on his speech - the very speech rights he used to conduct his spying. The Prosecution hopes that such weak sentences will not become the hallmark of this Court, and that this case will later be looked on as an aberration.