The Oligarchy

Queen Ravenna:
What is the meaning of this discussion?
You can pretend to fight with this system or even actually fight with it but chances to win are slim, because it is a human nature. Some people won't stop to be greedy. One oligarchy can always be easily replaced by another one, often the oligarchy of those who were against the old one.
I think this topic is another arena for the petty games.
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Queen Ravenna:
mcmasterdonia:
:agree: with QR.
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Thank you but I think some people won't listen at all. They seem to enjoy their mutual 'games'. :P
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I am great believer in Democracy, and I oppose oligarchy. Which is why I am rather offended when I am called an oligarch. I don't want to just let that slide.
 
Oh wow, this is still going? I am still impressed by how some people are so ready to rationalize what Blue Wolf did just because the people who opposed him weren't saints.

It can't possibly be that regional security is a dirty but still necessary business where things aren't always black and white. Nope, clearly if one side did one thing even just slightly off, then the other side is 100% in the right by default. A world with gray and gray morality? Perish the thought!

And clearly Eluvatar's only motive was to discredit Blue Wolf. I mean, what sort of weirdo would ever reject a forcible coup to tear down a constitutional government? Everyone knows that any truly loyal long-term resident of a region immediately jumps aboard any chance to rebel against it.

It couldn't possibly be that Eluvatar released the information because he abhors the thought of hording secrets away from the public eye. I think we can all agree that the powers that be should keep us in the dark as much as possible. That's what makes us a democracy and not an oligarchy where we're ruthlessly oppressed with unpleasant information.

And there's no way he was actually concerned that someone who had nearly staged a coup was considering seeking Security Council membership. I mean, how could allowing someone with that sort of background to accrue endorsements and influence possibly go wrong?

Yep, it all makes perfect sense, and I feel great shame for having every doubted a word of it for a second.

I think we all also need to take a moment, and appreciate the fact that the whole fiasco about declassifying things in the first place has utterly annihilated what little incentive there was for people to release information to the public instead of keeping it secret forever. Because that's exactly what we need to defend democracy and fight the oligarchy, more secrets.

Also, the irony that people are now up in arms for information not being released.

And that now that people have actual evidence of something which might be called an "oligarchy", the only crime they can pin on it is the heinous one of preventing a coup.

Fun times in TNP.
 
The only reason this thread was created was to sway opinion away from the truth. The Delegate and other senior government members have regional agendas from other regions that they will not admit publicly. If releasing information was that important to the Delegate than he would also be releasing real information about himself not just political enemies. That an Oligarch does not think he is an Oligarch is nothing new.
 
peoples empire:
The only reason this thread was created was to sway opinion away from the truth. The Delegate and other senior government members have regional agendas from other regions that they will not admit publicly. If releasing information was that important to the Delegate than he would also be releasing real information about himself not just political enemies. That an Oligarch does not think he is an Oligarch is nothing new.
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I am sick and tired of your unending nonspecific insinuations and accusations.

What regional agenda from other regions do you believe I have? :fish:
 
But Eluvatar don't you see the beauty of his rhetoric?. If he were to actually say what the "truth" was people would be able to evaluate whether or not it made any sense. But if he just makes vague accusations he can endlessly play off of preexisting suspicions and political divisions without ever having to risk being proven wrong, because he never says anything that can be proven either way.
 
:facepalm:


The beauty of the above two prong attack launched by the partisan Delegate and one of his chief followers is the self righteous indignation technique. This technique is used to sway people away from the truth, and it also helps defend there egos that must highly inflated yet still rather weak to be constantly combating the truth. This delegate who has already shown that he is not above trying to destroy his political opponents is now trying to launch a cover up. The Delegate at the very least should be the first one to admit his regional affiliations to not do so would be a tragic stain on democracy in the TNP.
 
Every act I take in TNP is with TNP's interests in mind above all else.

If you want a list of where else I'm involved though, I'm happy to present one:

I, Eluvatar, am:

Minister of Internal Affairs of Taijitu :w00t:

Chief of Intelligence for the United Defenders League and a Lieutenant :ADN:

A Citizen of TSP :hippy:

An honorary citizen in TEP last I checked :drink:

A resident of TP under the nom-de-plume Lajikelessea :greatbight:

A citizen in Balder :dance:

Attorney General in Osiris :tb4:

A citizen in TRR who once ran their delegate elections debate :noangel:

So... which of these places am I scurrilously betraying TNP for??
 
Wait so apparently Elu withheld all of that? I'm pretty sure I knew all of those without having been told by anyone.
 
peoples empire:
The only reason this thread was created was to sway opinion away from the truth. The Delegate and other senior government members have regional agendas from other regions that they will not admit publicly. If releasing information was that important to the Delegate than he would also be releasing real information about himself not just political enemies. That an Oligarch does not think he is an Oligarch is nothing new.
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I started this thread out of frustration with the perception that there was somehow an unseen hand operating covertly to usurp democracy in TNP. I have to tell you that is not the case. Unless there is some XXX top-secret area of the forum to which I do not have access, which I highly doubt, there is no "Star Chamber" cabal that colludes to call the shots here.

I think the discussion has been very illuminating for me, after having returned from a long absence, and it has helped me get a finger on the pulse here, so to speak. So I thank everyone for their input.

Before I close this discussion, I want to share my insights - much as Flem has done in a previous post. Over the years TNP has been blessed with some remarkable players. Outrageous, creative, and magnificently iconoclastic. Oh, the stories we have written, and the events we have lived through. In a game of politics, you will always have major players. Politics is, after all, just the competition for scarce resources. Of the thousands of nations, the number of feeder delegates makes up a short list.

I don't agree the reason Flem is on that list is because some covert elite group gave him the nod. I think there were nations in the region who agreed with his views, and believed in him, and encouraged him to run. He was certainly among the finest of delegates. I would say he is nigh unbeatable in an election in TNP.

Am I an oligarch? Well, in a way I suppose I am, since history has given some TNPers a shared vision of what this region is about. Freedom, as expressed in the Bill of Rights, Democracy, as guided by the Constitution, and Loyalty (to the cheese, of course.) There is not always agreement on the details, or the small stuff, but when the really big, defining issues come up, the Oligarchy finds each other on the same page.
 
Having lost a delegate election to Flem, I certainly agree that Flem has promoted the good of TNP for many years. I would say the same of Grosse even if I don't always agree with him and many others who have been here throughout and have molded TNP into what it is today.

I do think though, there is and always is an Oligarchy of the ruling elite. In TNP though, i think one can enter into that Oligarchy with relative ease compared to other feeders. I think that's a good thing because it allows new players the chance to make a name for themselves and show their value.

But it would be a mistake to not admit there is an oligarchy and that it does not try to control the direction of the TNP.
 
I ho nestly don't see what the problem is with the "oligarchy". As long as the job is being done, there shouldn't be a problem. The only time it becomes one is when one bullies another and triets tl take over the whole process. Now, we've just had an election(fairly successful), so I can't see how any of that could happen. Unless of course I'm missing something.
 
First one of the key facets of the oligarchy I will be talking about is the "Progressive Party" of Taijitu and it presence in TNP as the supposedly Independent "Progressive Party of the North Pacific". Many senior members of the executive branch of the north pacific are members of this puppet political party wielding influence in TNP a supposedly sovereign region. Indeed it is a sad day when The TNP Delegate openly brags about holding positions in another government ( in a rather Megalomaniacal way he justifies corruption) that The North Pacific only has diplomatic relations with thru infiltration of TNP sovereign democratic processes. The truth is TNP is not sovereign it is simply battle ground for other regional agendas. Im sure I will continue to be attacked by the Eluvatar, his followers, and others with regional agendas that taint democracy in the TNP. However the price of truth and freedom is greater than slavery to foreign region no matter how it is justified. I hope one day TNP members will be elected that wish to loyally serve the TNP without entangling alliances. I suppose when something has become this corrupt its to much to ask. I still have hope though.
 
I... I.. don't even.... I am a member of the progressive party, the party itself is a comittment to ideals, it does not require members to vote certain ways on individual issues. The Taijitu Progressive Party is a distinct and separate organization, with quite different membership, because Eluvatar is in both parties, does not mean he acts for some wider taijitu progressive agenda. I've certainly never heard him 'brag' about his positions in other regions either.

Its important we respect TNP's sovereignty, but we must also respect the sovereignty of others to exercise their own free will and judgement. I don't believe Eluvatar blocks debate, or restricts freedoms in anyway that could have him perceived as some sort of corrupt Delegate. In exercising our free will, we make choices about what regions we visit, what ones we don't, and what positions we hold. The fact is there are many different people who hold positions in other regions, I am one of them, and I always act in the best interests of the north pacific's sovereignty.

All of us as individuals are a product of our experiences, taking the NPA debate as a primary example. Some members of TNP have been involved in defender organisations such as the United Defenders League (UDL) and others have been involved in raider organizations. These experiences shape how you view a debate centralized around military game play. However, it must be said that in such a debate if we are to pursue such a course of action it must be in the interests of our region 100%, other interests of other organizations must be set aside from this. This has been more difficult for some, than it has been for others, but we cannot discount a person's opinion simply because of their involvement in other regions or orgs.

I'm interested to know, in what way you think Eluvatar has acted as a corrupt Delegate, or in what way he tangles his alliances. I've found his government, to be open, very democratic, and admire the changes he took to involve the wider region in the cabinet process. I've certainly not agreed with every decision he has made, and we have fiercely debated issues that we have strongly different views on. I'm not his follower, I make my own decisions, and do not blindly follow him. I think though, to ignore the significant things he has done as delegate, and writing him off as a corrupt official who does not represent The North Pacific's interests, is very incorrect, and somewhat disappointing.
 
Great Bight's Mum:
I would say he (flemingovia) is nigh unbeatable in an election in TNP
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Actually, I think i have lost the last two elections I have stood for in TNP. But keep the flattery coming - i can take it.
 
Just remember Peoples Empire that "TNP" is THE North Pacific so saying The TNP makes no sense whatsoever.
 
peoples empire:
:facepalm:
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I just read through the last page of this topic and I think brain cells just committed suicide.

Oy gevalt.
 
peoples empire:
Indeed it is a sad day when The TNP Delegate openly brags about holding positions in another government ( in a rather Megalomaniacal way he justifies corruption) that The North Pacific only has diplomatic relations with thru infiltration of TNP sovereign democratic processes.
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How could you even say that? He wasn't even bragging! How could you expect someone to have relations in only one region? I am involved in at least 3 regions, and I'm sure many others have at least 1 puppet somewhere. To say that Eluvatar has a secret allegiance to another region is totally foolish.
 
The people who have entangled alliances continue there child like attacks big surprise there ego is fighting back rather fiercely I see, but I am glad people are able to see the animal like behavior of people exhibited when they are afraid the game is up. This will be my last comment since I am out numbered and so the deceivers can get back to assimilating others into there ideology. some people are just sick maybe they will see the light one day but when you do not see your corrupt I suppose that is the great danger.
 
peoples empire:
The people who have entangled alliances continue there child like attacks big surprise there ego is fighting back rather fiercely I see, but I am glad people are able to see the animal like behavior of people exhibited when they are afraid the game is up. This will be my last comment since I am out numbered and so the deceivers can get back to assimilating others into there ideology. some people are just sick maybe they will see the light one day but when you do not see your corrupt I suppose that is the great danger.
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:eyebrow:

Just..what.

You have literally no evidence to back up your outlandish claims. You're practically trolling this thread with absolute nonsense accusations and yelling that people are 'corrupt' with absolutely no evidence of this and claiming that everyone here has ulterior motives because of other regions they are involved in..

I don't even know how many citizens would be left if you made a purge of everyone that has dual-citizenship. The idea that people who are involved in more than one region are corrupt is preposterous. You have no proof and are shouting about nonsense.

I do hope this is your last post in this thread. No one likes playing chess with pigeons.
 
peoples empire:
This will be my last comment since I am out numbered and so the deceivers can get back to assimilating others into there ideology.
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YES. YOU WILL JOIN ALL OF MY REGIONS BECAUSE I AM AN EVIL INVADER FROM TAIJITU. FEAR ME AND MY TAIJITU LEANING TNP IDEOLOGY. GRAAAAA.
 
I know exactly what to do.

It's simple, let's play "Beat Elu with a stick and see what happens."
 
Belschaft:
*is really sick of the 'UDL is plotting to take over the feeders!' crap, which he assumes is the pipe PE is smoking from*
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Since Peoples Empire is a member of the "Reform Party" - founded by Roman and which has Unibot as a member - I don't think he is actually on about the UDL.

Though, maybe he should be.

It would have more basis in reality than his concerns about Taijitu, I suspect.
 
I suspect you are correct. It is very odd that Unibot started getting into it a bit with Eluvatar about government matters, then joined the Reform Party and immediately started attacking the Progressive Party, of which Elu is the founding head.

Politics are a wonderful thing.
 
Funkadelia:
peoples empire:
This will be my last comment since I am out numbered and so the deceivers can get back to assimilating others into there ideology.
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YES. YOU WILL JOIN ALL OF MY REGIONS BECAUSE I AM AN EVIL INVADER FROM TAIJITU. FEAR ME AND MY TAIJITU LEANING TNP IDEOLOGY. GRAAAAA.
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HYPNO TOAD...HYPNO TOAD... :lol:

There is but one oligarchy and cheese be its name...

ingcheese.jpg
 
I'd like to thank the ever-changing oligarchy for letting me be delegate a couple of times and vice delegate a couple of other times. I never dealt with them directly (at least knowingly) but I was obviously an unwitting tool for their overarching plans.
 
Blackshear:
I'd like to thank the ever-changing oligarchy for letting me be delegate a couple of times and vice delegate a couple of other times. I never dealt with them directly (at least knowingly) but I was obviously an unwitting tool for their overarching plans.
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You should thank the Cheese Oligarchy...

ingcheese.jpg


Cheese is everywhere!
 
To ignore the fact that we had a Star Chamber and a secret "not part of the government" forum, however, is sort of stupid. That all really did happen, blocking your ears and screaming "lalalalala!" isn't going to make it go away or fix the problem either.
 
Blue Wolf II:
To ignore the fact that we had a Star Chamber and a secret "not part of the government" forum, however, is sort of stupid. That all really did happen, blocking your ears and screaming "lalalalala!" isn't going to make it go away or fix the problem either.
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Oh, that type of stuff goes on all the time. Point being, if such a forum or section of the forum exists, it would largely be irrelevant because TNPers often communicate by means other than the forum or IRC. I probably know personally (in RL) about 20 NS denizens, and we talk all the time. Would that constitute an Oligarchy? I mean, even if we discuss various varieties of exotic cheeses? :unsure: :unsure:
 
Blue Wolf II:
When said group says "you can't see what we do in here! We're not the government, we just tell them what to do!" yeah...there's a problem there.
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:fish:

Really, "we just tell them what to do," that's what you're going to go with?
 
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