The Oligarchy

Romanoffia:
Also, one of the functions of oligarchies in general can be summed up by this Orwell quote from 1984 in the chapter "War is Peace":

"It is a deliberate policy to keep even the favoured groups somewhere near the brink of hardship, because a general state of scarcity increases the importance of small privileges and thus magnifies the distinction between one group and another."

In peace times, oligarchies do this with 'power' and 'control', only those who are let into the 'oligarchy' are rarely ever let into the 'inner circle' of the oligarchy.

Thus, by creating a 'scarcity' of power and how it is distributed, an oligarchy can give the illusion that it is sharing power when in fact, it isn't sharing power. In that situations, a general sense of paranoia and denial of objective reality becomes the norm, and objective reality is only cited when it is useful to do so, and then shoved back into oblivion when objective reality and truth become inconvenient. In either situation, the truth, as it were, as Orwell notes, the truth and the very act of telling it (or even thinking it) becomes a revolutionary act.
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Great Post Romanoffia :worship:
 
If you consider the Oligarchy to be anyone who got a private invite to Eluvatar's secret extra-governmental meeting chamber, then the confirmed members stand as such:

Eluvatar
Ator People
Schnauzer the God
GBM
 
Blue Wolf II:
If you consider the Oligarchy to be anyone who got a private invite to Eluvatar's secret extra-governmental meeting chamber, then the confirmed members stand as such:

Eluvatar
Ator People
Schnauzer the God
GBM
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[Citation Needed]
 
Unfortunately, that information has been denied to the general public. As a matter of fact, the reason that the information was denies is because, as Eluvatar himself claimed, that secret group is considered to be not part of the government and therefore not subject to TNP laws regarding Freedom of Information requests. For all we know that group might consider itself above the law entirely. It is the very definition of an Oligarchy.

In any case, Eluvatar has confirmed this group's existence, he had a conversation with Ator on these forums in which Elu told him to read said secret forums, Mutley controls the Root Admin so he was, at the very least, aware of it, and GBM has been fighting hard as hell to justify the existence of said group, which means she's either part of the Oligarchy or suddenly very enthusiastic about secret underground groups which do their best to completely undermine the existence and authority of the Security Council. I think we can see the smoke, even if we are prohibited from viewing the gun.
 
Eluvatar:
As it turns out, Ator did not have access, probably because he wasn't around when your plots were being foiled.
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I love how you only dispute Ator and not the general accusations. :P

If you think my "plot" was "foiled" then you really don't know the nature of the plan. As I stated before, I believed the risk for failure to be too high, as I believed that the Old Guard would use the event as an excuse to crack down on the region in the event of said failure. Little did I know, the mere utterance of the words were enough to send them into full blown Oligarchy mode, as thus seen. Nothing that this secret group did affected my decision not to proceed. My own self-doubt in the rate of success and the damage it might cause if it failed was enough.

If I had known there was already such a level of corruption amongst some of the highest profile players in TNP, I probably would have proceeded regardless, as my fears have been realized even without the attempted bloodless revolution. This group of players, this Core, this Oligarchy, were simply looking for an excuse to subvert the law, and found one they did. My only regret is that I did not discover this treachery sooner when I was in a position to stop it from occurring.
 
If it is fine to release the logs in the public interest, surely its fine to release the rest of the information in the public interest.
This has gone on long enough I think, it is beyond irritating to say the least.
 
The beauty of the phrase "public interest" is that it is deliciously vague.

Those in control can easily decide that one thing is in the public interest and another thing is not.

Some people have refused permission, when asked, for their private words to be publicly released or even their identities to be confirmed and it would be wrong to go against their wishes, even in "public inter... ... ... Hang on ..... .... Wait a minute....
 
The sheer unmitigated gall of Blue Wolf here is staggering.

The group in question had one purpose, and one purpose only: preventing Blue Wolf II from permanently overthrowing our democratic government. There are no discussions unrelated to that purpose.

And I'm sure the group's actions to be prepared for action had nothing to do with Blue Wolf's decision.
 
Eluvatar:
The sheer unmitigated gall of Blue Wolf here is staggering.

The group in question had one purpose, and one purpose only: preventing Blue Wolf II from permanently overthrowing our democratic government. There are no discussions unrelated to that purpose.

And I'm sure the group's actions to be prepared for action had nothing to do with Blue Wolf's decision.
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That is always one thing that has puzzled me. You set up a private group to deal with the "threat" from a elected delegate. Why? In this region we have a constitutional body mandated to deal with threats - the security council.

Why did you not go there? Did you not trust that body with the information? If so, that is very worrying. Or did you want a group that would be beyond legal accountability?

Or was there some other reason? Because to those outside the group this must look very dodgy.
 
flemingovia:
Eluvatar:
The sheer unmitigated gall of Blue Wolf here is staggering.

The group in question had one purpose, and one purpose only: preventing Blue Wolf II from permanently overthrowing our democratic government. There are no discussions unrelated to that purpose.

And I'm sure the group's actions to be prepared for action had nothing to do with Blue Wolf's decision.
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That is always one thing that has puzzled me. You set up a private group to deal with the "threat" from a elected delegate. Why? In this region we have a constitutional body mandated to deal with threats - the security council.

Why did you not go there? Did you not trust that body with the information? If so, that is very worrying. Or did you want a group that would be beyond legal accountability?

Or was there some other reason? Because to those outside the group this must look very dodgy.
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You should know enough not to ask one of those questions.

That said I am seeking permission to disprove your disingenuous implication.
 
Eluvatar:
That said I am seeking permission to disprove your disingenuous implication.
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I was hoping you would treat this not as a theory that needs to be disproved but as a simple question that needs to be answered.

Why did you create a secret, extra-governmental group to deal with this perceived threat rather than working with the Constitutionally established Security Council?
 
Since the delegate has access to the SC threads, wouldn't it be challenging to use that area to develop an action plan to secure the region against a coup by the delegate? I suppose he could title it "BW Don't Read This." :ph34r:
 
mmmm. You have a point. But it is not beyond the wit of admin to create a hidden area to which the Security Council (minus the delegate) was invited, rather than to create a private group outside the constitutional mandate altogether.
 
Yes, but you still could have made a Security Council forum that I couldn't see or simply communicate by Private Messages. However, you didn't, you made your own "group" which you claim is beyond the governments controls and above its laws.
 
flemingovia:
Why did you create a secret, extra-governmental group to deal with this perceived threat rather than working with the Constitutionally established Security Council?
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Perhaps an RA committee should be established to investigate.
 
peoples empire:
flemingovia:
Why did you create a secret, extra-governmental group to deal with this perceived threat rather than working with the Constitutionally established Security Council?
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Perhaps an RA committee should be established to investigate.
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Nah. TNP cannot hold that much whitewash. Think of the children

Besides which, since the names of the secret group are not being disclosed how can you know that those sitting on the RA committee would not be the same people who were being investigated?

How do you know the judge currently investigating is not one?
 
flemingovia:
peoples empire:
flemingovia:
Why did you create a secret, extra-governmental group to deal with this perceived threat rather than working with the Constitutionally established Security Council?
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Perhaps an RA committee should be established to investigate.
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Nah. TNP cannot hold that much whitewash. Think of the children

Besides which, since the names of the secret group are not being disclosed how can you know that those sitting on the RA committee would not be the same people who were being investigated?

How do you know the judge currently investigating is not one?
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Hmm.....You make a good point.
 
Elu,

you could clear this all up by naming names and disclosing the contents.

Throughout the discussion B-dubs has been forthright with his opinions and what he did. The only secret here and the only reason for continued discussion is due to the fact that you are withholding information.

Releasing the information will put this to rest.
 
flemingovia:
Eluvatar:
That said I am seeking permission to disprove your disingenuous implication.
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I was hoping you would treat this not as a theory that needs to be disproved but as a simple question that needs to be answered.

Why did you create a secret, extra-governmental group to deal with this perceived threat rather than working with the Constitutionally established Security Council?
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I have received permission from all four who were members of the Security Council at that time to reveal that they did indeed have access to the area in question.

Others were invited to join the SC members to provide intelligence, to advise, and to be informed of the gathered intelligence.

Personally I had not understood it to be extra-governmental. Apparently, I was mistaken and you had to correct me.
 
Eluvatar:
flemingovia:
Eluvatar:
That said I am seeking permission to disprove your disingenuous implication.
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I was hoping you would treat this not as a theory that needs to be disproved but as a simple question that needs to be answered.

Why did you create a secret, extra-governmental group to deal with this perceived threat rather than working with the Constitutionally established Security Council?
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I have received permission from all four who were members of the Security Council at that time to reveal that they did indeed have access to the area in question.

Others were invited to join the SC members to provide intelligence, to advise, and to be informed of the gathered intelligence.

Personally I had not understood it to be extra-governmental. Apparently, I was mistaken and you had to correct me.
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If you had mentioned this while the matter was under judicial review, my judgement would have been very different. However, I can see why it was convenient for you for the court to rule as it did.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Eluvatar:
Personally I had not understood it to be extra-governmental. Apparently, I was mistaken and you had to correct me.
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If you didn't think this was extra-governmental, then why was your primary and sole claim for not releasing the information sought in the Freedom of Information Request that "the information you requested is not government property"?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.
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As I just said, that had been my personal opinion. When I went to execute your Freedom of Information Act request, however, I was surprised to find that this was not the opinion of others. I don't consider my personal opinion to be the law of the land, or even of an organization.

And flemingovia, I'm surprised. You ruled on your own interpretation of what it was, not mine. I was but the messenger. Indeed, when I came presenting possible responses to the request to the group, calling it nongovernmental was not one of them. Nevertheless, that was what you decided.
 
Wait, so you went to this group and told them of the FOI request and they came back and said "tell them we're not part of the government!"

How exactly is that group not an Oligarchy again?
 
Isn't the extra-governmental issue specifically what the court based its ruling on? And who heard the case? Okaaaay. However, since Flem is a god, he is a cut above your garden-variety oligarch. :flemingovia1:
 
So what you're saying is that it isn't really an Oligarchy, Flem's ruling made it one, despite the group's claims that it was above the government's controls before that ruling was made?

boxturtleizc128590545038582586.jpg
 
You may substitute the politically correct description in lieu of the word "couping." It doesn't change the impracticality of assessing the threat to regional stability and formulating an action plan to counteract it.
 
Great Bights Mum:
You may substitute the politically correct description in lieu of the word "couping." It doesn't change the impracticality of assessing the threat to regional stability and formulating an action plan to counteract it.
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Sorry GBM, but 'talking' about couping the region does not equate actually doing it especially not in this coup du jour region. Did BW coup the region? No. Did he consider it? Yes. Do we know why he considered it? Yes. Do we know the members of this secret group that discussed BW potential coup? No.

As I said before, BW has been pretty plain about why he considered a coup, what changes he would like to see in the region, and he's been pretty active within the bounds of the legal system to achieve these ends. Elu, on the other hand, took a more secretive approach and is not willing to disclose requested information. On my scales of justice, right is clearly on the side of BW.

Elu - you conveniently ignored my post about revealing the names of your compadres and that's fine but, if you believed that your secret group was a government entity, were any non government members present at the meeting?

If the answer to that is yes, then I have some serious concerns that you would include non government officials to discuss a governmental matter, especially this particular issue of a sitting delegate couping the region.
 
Funkadelia:
Blue Wolf II:
Wait, so you went to this group and told them of the FOI request and they came back and said "tell them we're not part of the government!"

How exactly is that group not an Oligarchy again?
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Because they say so :eyeroll:
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Actually Flemingovia is calling it an oligarchy, and I find that most interesting given his input into that decision.

punk d:
Great Bights Mum:
You may substitute the politically correct description in lieu of the word "couping." It doesn't change the impracticality of assessing the threat to regional stability and formulating an action plan to counteract it.
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Sorry GBM, but 'talking' about couping the region does not equate actually doing it especially not in this coup du jour region. Did BW coup the region? No. Did he consider it? Yes. Do we know why he considered it? Yes. Do we know the members of this secret group that discussed BW potential coup? No.
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Actually Blue Wolf has not at all told us of everyone who he contacted seeking support. And I don't think he publicly spoke of his plans back in March to coup the region until the log was published.

punk d:
As I said before, BW has been pretty plain about why he considered a coup, what changes he would like to see in the region, and he's been pretty active within the bounds of the legal system to achieve these ends. Elu, on the other hand, took a more secretive approach and is not willing to disclose requested information. On my scales of justice, right is clearly on the side of BW.
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Let me get this straight. One person "pretty plainly" considered unilaterally nullifying the democratically adopted law of the land, and that's okay, but having an organized group to prevent that eventuality is unethical?

punk d:
Elu - you conveniently ignored my post about revealing the names of your compadres and that's fine but, if you believed that your secret group was a government entity, were any non government members present at the meeting?
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Revealing all the names would impair the ability of TNP to prevent future attempts to destabilize it. I don't think that list should be revealed. That said, there was no one present who was not a TNPer.

punk d:
If the answer to that is yes, then I have some serious concerns that you would include non government officials to discuss a governmental matter, especially this particular issue of a sitting delegate couping the region.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with including a source like Hileville in that intelligence group.
 
Eluvatar:
Actually Flemingovia is calling it an oligarchy, and I find that most interesting given his input into that decision.
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Actually, I have not (I think) called this particular group "The Oligarchy." Also, given my length of time in the region and my position in it, it would be absurd for me to say that I was not part of the Oligarchy, at least from time to time.

I wonder if anyone in TNP has seen the TV series " A Very British Coup"?

Here is the plot from Wiki. I found some very interesting parallels with TNP:

Harry Perkins, an unassuming, working class, very left-wing Leader of the Labour Party and Member of Parliament for Sheffield Central, is elected Prime Minister in March 1989. The priorities of the Perkins Government include dissolving all newspaper monopolies, removing all American military bases on UK soil, unilateral nuclear disarmament, and true open government. Newspaper magnate Sir George Fison, with allies within British political and civil service circles, moves immediately to discredit him, with the U.S. the key, but covert, conspirator. The most effective of the Prime Minister's domestic enemies is the aristocratic Sir Percy Browne, Head of MI5, whose ancestors "unto the Middle Ages" have exercised subtle power behind the scenes.
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in that Eluvatar decided to work outside the government of TNP to discredit someone who had been elected, in order to prevent him from being elected, by the questionable release of private conversations, it could be argued that TNP has been couped - sort of. Voting may still be in the hands of the Regional Assembly, but a private group of "concerned citizens" have exercised subtle power behind the scenes.

A very TNP coup.
 
What is the meaning of this discussion?
You can pretend to fight with this system or even actually fight with it but chances to win are slim, because it is a human nature. Some people won't stop to be greedy. One oligarchy can always be easily replaced by another one, often the oligarchy of those who were against the old one.
I think this topic is another arena for the petty games.
 
flemingovia:
Eluvatar:
Actually Flemingovia is calling it an oligarchy, and I find that most interesting given his input into that decision.
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Actually, I have not (I think) called this particular group "The Oligarchy." Also, given my length of time in the region and my position in it, it would be absurd for me to say that I was not part of the Oligarchy, at least from time to time.
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flemingovia:
The Oligarchy, as I use it, refers to those who "can be trusted" - specifically, can be trusted by Grosseschnauzer and (especially) Eluvatar.

This is not synonymous with the security Council, since it does not depend on in-game influence. It does depend on trustworthiness an reliability. Thus ROman might once have been considered part of the Oligarchy, but he is not any more. To use a British phrase, he is no longer "one of us."

How do you know if you are part of the Oligarchy? If you have been invited to, or can see, some of the more private parts of the forum - you are in. I am absolutely not going to say any more about that, since I would certainly lose my admin mask if I were to do so.
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Mm-hmm...

flemingovia:
I wonder if anyone in TNP has seen the TV series " A Very British Coup"?

Here is the plot from Wiki. I found some very interesting parallels with TNP:

Harry Perkins, an unassuming, working class, very left-wing Leader of the Labour Party and Member of Parliament for Sheffield Central, is elected Prime Minister in March 1989. The priorities of the Perkins Government include dissolving all newspaper monopolies, removing all American military bases on UK soil, unilateral nuclear disarmament, and true open government. Newspaper magnate Sir George Fison, with allies within British political and civil service circles, moves immediately to discredit him, with the U.S. the key, but covert, conspirator. The most effective of the Prime Minister's domestic enemies is the aristocratic Sir Percy Browne, Head of MI5, whose ancestors "unto the Middle Ages" have exercised subtle power behind the scenes.
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in that Eluvatar decided to work outside the government of TNP to discredit someone who had been elected, in order to prevent him from being elected, by the questionable release of private conversations, it could be argued that TNP has been couped - sort of. Voting may still be in the hands of the Regional Assembly, but a private group of "concerned citizens" have exercised subtle power behind the scenes.

A very TNP coup.
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:facepalm:

To assert that the group in question was created with the goal of discrediting Blue Wolf II in mind is ridiculous. It was created to respond to a crisis which appeared to be about to escalate wildly. It was created with the exclusive purpose of stopping Blue Wolf from disregarding the democratic process and unilaterally imposing his will. (And yes, declaring the constitution void and calling a constitutional convention is unilaterally imposing one's will: as I've explained before, that introduces an unwritten constitution that the Delegate may void the laws if they really want to, and that's okay.)

You're in a good position to confirm that there were no plans for any election in that area whatsoever: it was concerned entirely with Blue Wolf's plans (and actions), letting the region know about what went on, and now meta-discussion such as what may or may not be disclosed now in response to recent requests.
 
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