Fedele
TNPer
Yes, those without founders or delegates. Having a forum also places a region in a dictatorship run by the administrator though it would be easily overthrown simply by creating a new forum.
NS Government Philosophies
- Thread starter Fedele
- Start date
Upper Kirby
TNPer
Nothing on the internet is ever capable of being a dictatorship.
Poltsamaa
TNPer
Not even the NPD?!
Upper Kirby
TNPer
No, not even the NPD. There's no such thing as 'force' on the internet -people traffic wherever it is they feel like, and can't be coaxed otherwise.
If you really want to, you can found the region Poltsamaaland, set yourself up as founder, build a forum, and declare yourself Dictator for Life. But it'd be a dreadfully lonely dictatorship.
Ah, but this isn't real comrade.
The threat of force is not an actual threat, but one of being 'banjected' from the region.
Dictatorships exist in as much of a sense as this region exist; everyone realises that to remove the issue, you simply have to find a new region, but where is the fun in that?
Upper Kirby
TNPer
It's a very weak and practically useless threat. People are much more likely to leave on their own anyways. See, unlike the real world, in nationstates we almost have complete freedom of movement. Certain regions may be passworded, but nothing can ever prevent you from leaving your region.
Related to that, on the internet everyone is, essentially, perfectly free to do whatever they want but equally incapable of forcing other people to do anything. If Poltsamaa, founder of Poltsamaaland, really wanted to, could he force you to do anything? No. He'd have to get you to move there. If his region was a dictatorship it wouldn't seem too appealing.
Then he'd have to get you to not leave this region of Poltsamaa and Digitalis. In the government of Poltsamaa and only Poltsamaa that may be difficult. Most players are pretty apathetic about where their nation ends up anyways, but if they followed you into that region they can just as easily leave. If that happens you're down to the region of just Poltsamaa.
Then he'd have to get you to participate on his offsite forum. In Poltsamaaland, the region of Poltsamaa and Digitalis and no one else, there may seem little reason for Digitalis to invest in registering to an online forum. But let's just say there are more people in the region and Digitalis decides the ten-second registration is bearable. Then what? He could post in the General forums, if there was much worthwhile to post about. He could take an active part in the government, if it wasn't stiffled, a tricky thing to not have happen in a dictatorship.
Something has to encourage him to log in every once in a while. When nobody logs in, you have an empty forum, but one that is under the complete control of Poltsamaa.
Then the final challenge, he has to keep your nation from ceasing to exist. To do this he has to convince you to give enough of a damn to log in.
You'd think that on the internet, without the need or availability for a support structure like thousands of black-clad Stormtroopers, power could be consolidated into one or two people in a greater degree, but that's not true. Power is only getting people to follow you. In this game, and the internet in general, that's pretty much based on how much fun people are having. In NS a lot of that fun comes from participation in general discussion and the political framework of government. Dictatorships aren't much fun. What's the fun in a one-man duchy?
Dictatorships can't thrive. The only government model which can is one which removes obstacles to participation, encourages new membership, proliferates discussion.
Fedele bases his argument on the premise that we live here at the delegate's pleasure, and it is their will which keeps us from being kicked out. I disagree. I'll give him that whoever the founder or delegate is of a region shapes it, but we live here at our pleasure, and it's our will which keeps us from leaving and keeps us participating.
Basically, what I'm saying is this: We're all here on the internet. None of us is in any way better than the other (i.e. we're all equal across modems). No reason to act like things are the opposite. There's nothing keeping us doing anything; let's do what's fun and maybe other people will decide to play too.
And that's why democracy is the best government.
Gracius Maximus
Tyrant (Ret.)
It's just too easy.
I will reserve overly verbous comment on that incredibly long and naive post above.
It can be summed up in one brief statement, if the Delegate ejects and bans you from the region you are not choosing to leave and you are not choosing to live in the region because you will not be allowed. It is that simple. There is no choice if the Delegate decides to take it from you.
I will reserve overly verbous comment on that incredibly long and naive post above.
It can be summed up in one brief statement, if the Delegate ejects and bans you from the region you are not choosing to leave and you are not choosing to live in the region because you will not be allowed. It is that simple. There is no choice if the Delegate decides to take it from you.
Poltsamaa
TNPer
Actually, we are all in the region at the will of the Delegate!! If the Delegate wanted to kick us out, he/she could do so easily and without any recourse for those ejected!!
As for government style in the region, the Delegate again allows a form of government to exist, if he/she decided that they no longer wanted to entertain such a government, they would remove the forum address from the WFE and kick the leaders of that government from the region!! Again, completely the Delegate's choice with no recourse for those kicked out!!
While your post was detailed, it did tend to ignore the basic law of game mechanics!!
As for government style in the region, the Delegate again allows a form of government to exist, if he/she decided that they no longer wanted to entertain such a government, they would remove the forum address from the WFE and kick the leaders of that government from the region!! Again, completely the Delegate's choice with no recourse for those kicked out!!
While your post was detailed, it did tend to ignore the basic law of game mechanics!!
Upper Kirby
TNPer
I addressed that.
You'll recall, then, what happened next. People continued to use the s2 forum. The NPD forum was pretty empty, save for non-NPDers 'observing' and a smattering of opportunists and turncoats, the upper echelon of which had to be imported from other regions. Activity started to increase when those expanded ranks were added (not that the Ministers added much).Poltsamaa:
Yes having control of the World Factbook Entry is important (I didn't say it wasn't), but if a founder or delegate chooses to act unilaterally, without regard for their responsibility to their community, you only end up with a dead region. Not much power to that.
I cannot help but feel that this discussion, valuable and interesting though it is, has strayed beyond that which is appropriate in and specific to the consulate of the Paicific Army, and that we are in danger of abusing the hospitality of the Pacific Army.
Unless i hear any objections, this afternoon I will split this discussion out of theis consulate, and put it in its own thread in the "important discussions" area.
Unless i hear any objections, this afternoon I will split this discussion out of theis consulate, and put it in its own thread in the "important discussions" area.
Upper Kirby
TNPer
I'm not a new player, being a former resident of here, TPC, and elsewhere, but other names I've used, faces and hats worn, are of no one's business anymore.
Faux-mystery is fun for no-one.
I could go down the path of saying "You won't tell us who you are, therefore you have something to hide", but I cannot be bothered.
Poltsamaa
TNPer
I don't think you did!! Glossed over it, perhaps, but not addressed!!
Actually, the NPD forum did quite well after the initial flamefest!! And despite that, the crux of your argument is still flawed. Pixiedance was still Delegate and could kick whoever they liked out of the region!! The could also direct all new members of the region to their chosen forum!! So, there was nothing anyone could do about the "dictatorship" of the NPD other than mill around in secret forums plotting invasions!!
Killing a feeder?! All Delegates act unilaterally to some extent!! As is patently obvious, the Delegate can decide to dispense with members of the region and the "government" of the region in an instant, no matter what system you have in place!! It is game mechanics, simple as that!!
Digitalis:
They cite the ADN News Service as a reference!! I think the field just narrowed!!
If Upper Kirby has been known elsewhere in NS under a different name, he would not be the first to adopt a new identity in coming to the North Pacific, would he Tygaland?
Or are outed, as in your case.
- Pronouns
- she/her
- TNP Nation
- Former English Colony
- Discord
- Erastide
Whatever happened to splitting out all this crap?
Sorry. My fault. I said I would split it then I forgot.
Gracius Maximus
Tyrant (Ret.)
I know Poltsamaa addressed this to some degree but I will point out that activity levels on s4 (NPD) were higher than s2 (exiles) and more active that this forum to date, at least on the point of highest users online at any one time:
Most users online:
s2 (exiles):
58 on July 28th, 2004
s13 (this forum):
33 on Nov. 29th, 2005
s4 (NPD):
64 on Jan 9th, 2005
Most users online:
s2 (exiles):
58 on July 28th, 2004
s13 (this forum):
33 on Nov. 29th, 2005
s4 (NPD):
64 on Jan 9th, 2005
Gracius Maximus
Tyrant (Ret.)
Umm, where?
All I can see is an argument for your position in regards to player created regions in which you would have a choice regarding movement into the region (although movement out of the region and maintaining status therein is still up to the Founder or Delegate) but nothing that remotely relates that to a feeder.
Fulhead Land
TNPer
Its great how everything easily reveals old (or is it?) feelings....
Anyway...
There is one truth in NS. The Delegate, and in most cases, The Founder of a region, has ultimate control. We live and die by their approval. All of this crap, while making the game much more fun, is just gravy! In essence, a way of controlling the masses
Fulhead Land
TNPer
Dont people do that every day?
And no matrix references? Ok, but I do reserve the right to make weird GTA:SA refernces to the druggie hippie guy "The truth".
And on topic...
I dont see why people shouldnt believe that, i is the truth and had they read and understood the game rule sproperly they'd always know it. I have no illusions. I like off sites, they make sense. But still, I know what they are, what purpose they serve.
- Pronouns
- she/her
- TNP Nation
- Former English Colony
- Discord
- Erastide
Yes, there's always a completely technical aspect/perspective under which one could view the game. In which, none of what we do here matters. However, I don't think the majority of us playing here in TNP ascribe to that view. We invest time, energy, thought into what goes on here, and we view it as an extension of our region.
Hell, I know the rules as well as anyone (I think), but that doesn't mean I'm going to cry foul if we have a rogue delegate. Our community decides our rules.
And now, the title of this thread is very appropriate.
Hell, I know the rules as well as anyone (I think), but that doesn't mean I'm going to cry foul if we have a rogue delegate. Our community decides our rules.
And now, the title of this thread is very appropriate.
Fulhead Land
TNPer
But as has been proved time and again, in the real Gods of NS (admin.mods) eyes, only 1 view matters. The technical view.
Gracius Maximus
Tyrant (Ret.)
I find this humorous.
- Pronouns
- she/her
- TNP Nation
- Former English Colony
- Discord
- Erastide
Actually I screwed that up. But depending on who I'd cry foul to... it makes sense. 
Poltsamaa
TNPer
Fulhead, don't waste your time trying to convince people of the realities of the game, NationStates!!
The same deluded arguments of "our Constitution makes us safe" have been going around since the NPD left the region!! The forum, the constitution and the government of any region in NationStates exists solely at the discretion of the Delegate (in feeders and founderless regions) or the Founder!! If either of those nations do not want a certain nation in the region, the nation in question is booted out with no requirement for the Delegate/Founder to give a reason or right of appeal!!
If the Delegate/Founder gets tired of the regional "government system" then they can remove it in seconds!!
All regions in NationStates are dictatorships by this very notion!! Democracy or any other government system based off-site exists only because the Delegate/Founder allows it to!!
People kicked out can bitch about it, form "underground" groups and/or try and invade the region to oust the Delegate!! But, a Delegate that has some idea about how the game works is very hard to dislodge!!
Having off-site forum with a government adds a dimension to the game that means it is more appealing that the basic game of NationStates!! But we should never lose sight of the fact that the very existance of the off-site government is precarious and the arrogant assumption that because we have a 20000 word Constitution makes us immune to game mechanics may well lead to our downfall!! The Constitution cannot and never will prevent a "rogue" Delegate!!
The same deluded arguments of "our Constitution makes us safe" have been going around since the NPD left the region!! The forum, the constitution and the government of any region in NationStates exists solely at the discretion of the Delegate (in feeders and founderless regions) or the Founder!! If either of those nations do not want a certain nation in the region, the nation in question is booted out with no requirement for the Delegate/Founder to give a reason or right of appeal!!
If the Delegate/Founder gets tired of the regional "government system" then they can remove it in seconds!!
All regions in NationStates are dictatorships by this very notion!! Democracy or any other government system based off-site exists only because the Delegate/Founder allows it to!!
People kicked out can bitch about it, form "underground" groups and/or try and invade the region to oust the Delegate!! But, a Delegate that has some idea about how the game works is very hard to dislodge!!
Having off-site forum with a government adds a dimension to the game that means it is more appealing that the basic game of NationStates!! But we should never lose sight of the fact that the very existance of the off-site government is precarious and the arrogant assumption that because we have a 20000 word Constitution makes us immune to game mechanics may well lead to our downfall!! The Constitution cannot and never will prevent a "rogue" Delegate!!
mr_sniffles
TNPer
This number is actually inflated since so many of us were IP banned from the NPD forum and had to assume alias just to speak and even then...
Gracius Maximus
Tyrant (Ret.)
Are you suggesting that in the very early days of the NPD, which is what the 9th was, that so many were IP banned that the number should actually have been much higher than 64?
Doesn't make sense but okay.
Doesn't make sense but okay.
