The West Pacific

In case people haven't been following that other feeder, my attempt at a brief summary.

West Pacific Dominion took power a few months ago, consisting of then-delegate and few other high-ranking officials. Was a disaster, caved after people expressed outrage at being overthrown and having their Constitution thrown out.

Then there were some trials that were quite counter-productive, from my understanding. I believe, in the end, all but Biyah got pardoned. And Biyah's still around, so don't know what happened there exactly. Then they realized the Old Constitution had major flaws (note: replicating RL Judicial Systems in NS does not work. Might want to check ours out eventually, see if it can't be streamlined and made more practical) and organized ConComIII (Constitutional Committee Version 3.0: For a New Year, and new dramas ). After lots of bickering and more and more people leaving, the forum getting down to 20 or 30 posts a day (that's bad), people insisting on such antiquated concepts as "Democracy" and "Elected Delegates" and such, even after a poll showed that the majority wanted a Constitutional Monarchy (with elected delegates and term limits? ), Eli (AKA Wickedly Evil Peoples) decided to end it and start afresh with: The West Pacific Triumvirate! He instituted an endocap of 50 and promptly banned most of the people over that, with little warning. The Triumvirate was Eli (delegate and head of state), TAO (Minister of Foreign Affairs), and Biyah (Minister of Security), although Biyah has since left (apparently he thinks those wackos from the PRP are really running the show ), so maybe it's more like the West Pacific Duo? But WPD is already claimed, so....I don't know, I'll have to get back to you on that.

Relevant Links:
TWP Forum: http://s8.invisionfree.com/the_west_pacific
PRP Statement (BA is funny....and admittedly a good orator): http://s4.invisionfree.com/thepacific/inde...?showtopic=3337
TWP Banlist: http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index....he_west_pacific (make sure you're logged in on NS first)

This might seem weird to some of you, some of you it won't. I support the WPT wholeheartedly. I would love to be able to give a statement saying the NPA will defend the rightful TWP government from evil fuzzy foreigners (pesky userites). However, it isn't really my decision, and I'll be leaving you soon anyway.

Oh, and, for the record, if I got a do-over, I would of joined the NPD instead of NPU.

Heft:

Oh, and, for the record, if I got a do-over, I would of joined the NPD instead of NPU.

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Just a comment, I haven't really taken much notice of this and am just catching up on the events, but any move to restructure TWP to be self-determining and rid itself of userite influences is welcomed by myself!!

"Userite"? Careful there, you will begin to sound like a Pacifican rather than the trueblood North Pacifican we know you are.

My home is TWP, and I am disgusted. I have never left the region in my two and a half years on NS...but this might make me do it.

I knwo understand what TNP went through a few months ago. I thought such chaos could never affect TWP, which seemed to be the strongest democracy in NS, but it did.

I was using the terminology of the previous post!!

Despite the rumours, I have never been a citizen of The Pacific!! There is a lot to admire about The Pacific and essentially the feeders right to self-determination is paramount, in my opinion!!

I agree with Heft on this (except for the NPD thing because I didn't hang around for that). I think NationStates as a whole is crying out for the WPT.

Well, crying anyway.

Oh boy. Doesn't this sound familiar.

Hopefully TWP can be sorted out and settle down fairly quickly. Didn't we base a lot of our Constitution off of theirs?

Almost a cut and paste job some would say!!

Honestly, I haven't been keeping up on the situation. Thanks Heft for opening up this thread and explaining it.

I don't know if I would have joined NPD, but I do like the idea of this WPT. Perhaps it could work out well. Sounds like less "red tape" to me than a full democracy.

It brings up some interesting questions regarding democracy and its success or lack thereof in Nationstates. It should also make us look at our own Constitution and fix any problems before it really "breaks" and we have a situation as TWP does/did.

EDIT: Waiting for admin of TWP to validate my registration so I can view the link Heft provided.

Fedele:

I think NationStates as a whole is crying out for the WPT.

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Why? This, like virtually everything else at this stage of the game in NS, has been done before. More than once. More of an ineviablity than a novel and interesting occurrence, in my view.

The status quo in feeders may be boring, but so now is the alternative.

Sirixis:

Fedele:

I think NationStates as a whole is crying out for the WPT.

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Why? This, like virtually everything else at this stage of the game in NS, has been done before. More than once. More of an ineviablity than a novel and interesting occurrence, in my view.

The status quo in feeders may be boring, but so now is the alternative.

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Democracies on offsite forums are killing NationStates by trying to take the power out of the Delegate's hands and, in effect, taking the game out of the game.

*Shakes his head frustrated* I am disappointed and quite frankly slightly disturbed at the amount of sympathy for this junta. Alot of us have experianced first hand what dicatorship has done for the region. Though I am pleased to see that "Triumvir" Eli has cleared the ban box of most members, I am quite frankly disappointed in his hipocracy. And ours, if we support this.

Now, do not get me wrong, I am a proud "feederite" if you will, residing in 3 out of 5 Pacifics and fully active in The North Pacific, but do they have to resort to dictatorship and destruction to "free" themselves? Besides, the junta betrayed their people. They were charged to bring back the light to the region after the Dominion darkened its shores and lands. They were charged to rebuild the region in a democratic fashion acceptable to the people of the region. Be it a constitutional monarchy or whatever. The people do not support this. They are being silenced, shamed, and booted if they do not agree.

I'm sorry, but if they wanted change, they should have listened to their people, and not betrayed them.

To paraphrase what a wise man ()said a few weeks ago while we were discussing TNP: "It's like we're playing House, when we should be playing Risk." And Dalimbar, you're coming close to hypocrisy yourself.

Sure, the WPT isn't anything fundementally new, but it's something. And TWP was certainly in some dire straits. The Great NS Democratic Experiment may finally have apexed, depending on what happens here, in TNP. With the fall of TWP, the PRP is the most successful and influential Feeder. TEP is an isolationist benevolent dictatorship (well, technically all feeders are, but, they're more open about it), TSP is democratic, but pretty isolationist (when was the last time they made the news? Or, how many South Pacifians can you name off the top of your head?). TNP? We're too fresh, too new. Which is great! I love the fact that TNP is, nationwise, probably the youngest feeder. In most other feeders I'd hardly be considered a longtime player, here I'm practically a veteran. But that's not the real reason I like it (no, really). All these old geezers are complaining about NS dying, the sky is falling, I miss the good ol days, where are my hearing aids? Most of you here are new, fresh, and (pretty much like me, honestly) don't remember the "good ol days", before founders and random updates and before Francos Spain and when the UN actually mattered, blah blah blah. In my view, this gives you chance, if you can build TNP up from the rubble that you've inherited (making a good dent so far, but people still see TNP as the....wreck, although maybe with TWP going the way it is, we can switch roles and become the stable, democratic one). I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm tired and not thinking clearly and have been wanting to say this for awhile. You people have the potential to turn TNP into that great Democratic Feeder (or as democratic as a feeder can be) if you want too. You also lack all that baggage that older members have. If you can build TNP up, and foster extra-regional ties (because, honestly, the power in NS lies in those circles of friends in different regions that work together, not in any one region or official alliance), you can help lead NS into the next Era.

But back to TWP. CC3 was quite arguably failing. Shasoria is still banned, I here? And Biteland? Don't know about Biteland, but Shas was annoying me, and I was just watching sorta casually. They voted for a Constitutional Monarchy, unicameral legislature. Shas proposed a constitution that was neither of those things. They let Shas talk and stuff. But if that is how it was going to work....if people were going to insist on democracy except for when it goes against them? Go Eli! I was an onlooker, and I was about to start slapping people. Things happened in our Convention over the summer I didn't agree with, but I didn't ignore the things I didn't like just because I thought they were stupid. I would expect the same from anyone else, I don't care "dedicated" you are to the region, or how mortified you are that TWP is moving away from its democratic roots. The majority says, we want this. Whether you like it or not, either go with it or leave.

Ah Heft, who said I was still playing your little games?

I do agree that "new" is good, in some cases. This is not the case for me. Paint me as a whiny lefty or whatever, I still stand by my previous statement that we should not be supporting this action.

Heft, I do agree with your second paragraph. Just to clarify that.

However, CC3 was starting to turn around and progress was starting to happen. I have been watching it as closely as you can without being a "resident" there, and though they would probably have gone monarchist, fine. I don't care right at this point if they would have gone to constitutional monarchist. As long as the leadership went on the whim of the people. However, it hasn't gone that way, I am afraid.

Heft for the love of God, pls post shorter .

Well I frreing themselves is right, selfdetermination free from outsiders influence is right also, this thing is far from over.

What could have been is a fruitless and pointless argument. What is and what could be is more usefull.

As in the Pacific (I know this might throw off a few) we should show support for our feeder brother (sister? )

Who is the "fellow pacific" you think we should be supporting? The junta in charge or the GiE seeking to throw off of the cords of repression? Both are composed of West Pacificans. All I can say is thank God when we were recently screwed over by rogue delegates other regions had the decency to keep out of what was not, essentially, their fight.

This is a West Pacifican struggle, and we should not be escalating it by piling into the conflict, even with "messages of support" for either side.

Eh, flatering will get you nowhere.

Well member of this region are mature enough to decide whom to support, but not taking sides is just kidding ourself. In my opinion, and before this will go into a long rant (which I think it will anyway), maybe we should let the PM and MoEA come up with a draft that they think best serves the region. How about that for a change?

flemingovia:

Who is the "fellow pacific" you think we should be supporting? The junta in charge or the GiE seeking to throw off of the cords of repression? Both are composed of West Pacificans. All I can say is thank God when we were recently screwed over by rogue delegates other regions had the decency to keep out of what was not, essentially, their fight.

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Uh.... Flem? Do you remember the West Pac statement against Moldavi? We most definitely had support from other regions for the NPU.

Personally, the situation's so muddled over there it's harder to say one side is any better then the other. Yes the delegate and others seized control. However, they're all residents of the region. And there wasn't really a system in place at the time. *shrugs*

I'd rather we stayed out of it to see what happened for at least a week or two. To see if it's something that can last, or just a spur of the moment decision that can't be kept up.

Poor choice of words. I meant kept out of supporting the NPD.

Fedele:

Democracies on offsite forums are killing NationStates by trying to take the power out of the Delegate's hands and, in effect, taking the game out of the game.

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If that was the case, then the East Pacific should be the most exciting and vibrant of the feeders.

An all-powerful, entrenched delegate is just as boring as a democracy where everyone agrees with everyone else. This place was still hopping as a democracy last term when there was a vocal opposition. When they got elected this term they had nothing and no one to rail against (after the twoslit problem was rectified). When no new opposition force arose, it got quiet here.

The problem isn't democracy, it's lack of meaningful conflict. The TWP situation seems too contrived to create this conflict for any sustainable amount of time. It won't "save" the game.

Heft's post:

"It's like we're playing House, when we should be playing Risk."

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Good quote.

Heft:

In most other feeders I'd hardly be considered a longtime player, here I'm practically a veteran.

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Do I count as a veteran too?

Heft:

In my view, this gives you chance, if you can build TNP up from the rubble that you've inherited (making a good dent so far, but people still see TNP as the....wreck, although maybe with TWP going the way it is, we can switch roles and become the stable, democratic one). I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm tired and not thinking clearly and have been wanting to say this for awhile. You people have the potential to turn TNP into that great Democratic Feeder (or as democratic as a feeder can be) if you want too. You also lack all that baggage that older members have.

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I agree! TNP has such great potential. A few changes perhaps, some new active members/ideas, and we could be the envy of the feeders.

koona:

In my opinion, and before this will go into a long rant (which I think it will anyway), maybe we should let the PM and MoEA come up with a draft that they think best serves the region. How about that for a change?

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I agree, but perhaps some more discussion and waiting time before we jump to a conclusion. I think this should be talked about before we put our full support behind one side or another.

Sirixis:

Fedele:

Democracies on offsite forums are killing NationStates by trying to take the power out of the Delegate's hands and, in effect, taking the game out of the game.

Click to expand...

If that was the case, then the East Pacific should be the most exciting and vibrant of the feeders.

An all-powerful, entrenched delegate is just as boring as a democracy where everyone agrees with everyone else. This place was still hopping as a democracy last term when there was a vocal opposition. When they got elected this term they had nothing and no one to rail against (after the twoslit problem was rectified). When no new opposition force arose, it got quiet here.

The problem isn't democracy, it's lack of meaningful conflict. The TWP situation seems too contrived to create this conflict for any sustainable amount of time. It won't "save" the game.

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I didn't mean to say that it was making us inactive, I simply meant to say that it is making the government seperate from the region. Also, one of the reasons TEP is inactive is because they have no specific direction. TEP just role plays. I do feel that excessive buraucracy strangles the game, though.

*waves her hand dismissively, points to the Daiokuran press release*

[referring to TWP] To destroy the Core/WPD in such a manner then turn around and do essentially the same thing with fewer people and no such assurance of eventual 'democracy' is crap. I support Biyah, outright, as I did during the Dominion days. I trust Eli as far as I can throw him. -K. Yamada, Praetor, Daiokura

As a Governer, I have the luxury to sit here, watch, and find the whole thing amusing. Inter-regional relations is absolutely not my forté, and I'm honestly glad I don't have to deal with it. In an official capacity, I maintain our isolationism.

This actual situation is so completely over my head, but I think I can still talk about whether or not we should do something, even if I can't talk about what that is.

I don't think we should isolate ourselves from the world and the changes hppening around us, especially not one as big as this seems to be. If this new government is going to affect our region, should we not do everything we can to influence it in the direction that benefits us most? I'm not talking about invasion or anything, but at very least our moral support to whoever would benefit us most. I'm trying not to sound cold, but we should act in our own best interests.

As I recall, many of us in the NPU/NPC took the position that we appreciated any expressions of support for a democratic region, but we asked that outsiders stay out of the dispute until we could resolve it ourselves.

I would think that this would be the starting point for our region with regards to the current situation in TWP.

One thing you will not see is any puppet of mine in TWP.

Sirixis:

Fedele:

Democracies on offsite forums are killing NationStates by trying to take the power out of the Delegate's hands and, in effect, taking the game out of the game.

Click to expand...

If that was the case, then the East Pacific should be the most exciting and vibrant of the feeders.

An all-powerful, entrenched delegate is just as boring as a democracy where everyone agrees with everyone else. This place was still hopping as a democracy last term when there was a vocal opposition. When they got elected this term they had nothing and no one to rail against (after the twoslit problem was rectified). When no new opposition force arose, it got quiet here.

The problem isn't democracy, it's lack of meaningful conflict. The TWP situation seems too contrived to create this conflict for any sustainable amount of time. It won't "save" the game.

Click to expand...

Democracy itself is not the problem. As Fedele said, TEP is content to simply keep to themselves and roleplay, and they have no direction. But, which Feeder is the most active and vibrant? The Pacific, under the PRP and what is honestly an oligarchy.

If I intended on staying here, I would stay out of TWP right now (like I did when the WPD happened). But I don't. I'm going to handle all the adminstrative issues of the NPA (processing members and monitoring the nomination and approval process for candidates), but then I'm gone. Not that I don't love you guys, I just need a break, and something different. So I don't feel all that bad about reviving Bluume and moving it into TWP and hanging out.

Deikura:

[referring to TWP] To destroy the Core/WPD in such a manner then turn around and do essentially the same thing with fewer people and no such assurance of eventual 'democracy' is crap. I support Biyah, outright, as I did during the Dominion days. I trust Eli as far as I can throw him. -K. Yamada, Praetor, Daiokura

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See, I do trust Eli, Lanier, and especially Tao. I don't trust Biyah at all, though. I thought the WPD was unnecessary at the time and crudely done. However, I also believe they shouldn't have caved so easily. Their surrender, more than the takeover (which is kind of a misnomer, since Neenee was already delegate), caused more problems, IMO.

I feel the WPT has more solid leadership and is more necessary. Oh, and the game has changed since the NPD. The prevailing opinion was still very pro-democracy at the time. Over the past year, that's changed quite a lot. Besides, how democratic was TWP? They were stable because a small group controlled it. When TNP was stable, a small group controlled the delegacy (oh, and, in the absence of any "Old Guard" working in the shadows, the TNP delegacy is as close to being open to everyone as it can be, for better or for worse).

Ator people:

koona:

In my opinion, and before this will go into a long rant (which I think it will anyway), maybe we should let the PM and MoEA come up with a draft that they think best serves the region. How about that for a change?

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I agree, but perhaps some more discussion and waiting time before we jump to a conclusion. I think this should be talked about before we put our full support behind one side or another.

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I agree, this is certainly going to be a controversial issue in TNP. Any government announcement released without prior discussion amongst the region will take fire from someone. Hence, I started this thread here as opposed to the Cabinet Room.

With the memories of our own repeated dictatorships still fresh, I've learnt that the whole democracy in a feeder argument a massive quagmire. So I've boiled it down to this: can effective change be actualized by its citizens? Is dissent recognized as not harmful but productive in attempting a consensus? Can any policy be seen as self-serving?

Dictatorships are never the way to go. They fail in NS in the same ways they fail in RL, they're self-serving cliques. Now some can say that about off-site feeder governments but the main difference is that any resident has the OPPORTUNITY to change what they want by law. Triumvirates, tyrants, and juntas are all closed off cliques that believe that they know best. Their best argument is quite simply a frustrated gasp at why others can't agree with them, so they take power through illegal means; means that can't be taken through consensus or democratically. Thus corrupt.

Great Bight refused to surrender power when he failed to pass post-ups reforms and he had lost the interests (and endorsements) of the region. Cathyy suspended the constitution after puplic uproar over her unilateral withdrawal from the ADN, and the rest was history.

Besides the removal of any form of democracy from the region, I ask you Heft, what would you recommend for reform to enhance democracy here in the feeders?

Thus, from this lowly assemblyman I personally feel horrified by the turn of events in TWP and call for public condemnations for the current junta and to ready the army if we are requested.

mr_sniffles:

Cathyy suspended the constitution after puplic uproar over her unilateral withdrawal from the ADN, and the rest was history.

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You obviously have no clue as to what you are talking about on this subject!! But carry on...!!

Just a small point, shouldn't this be in the MoEA forum area?

I believe as its a discussion of The North Pacific nations view on this event its nothing to do with me. Or in other words I don't want it, and I'll lock it if it ends up on my doorstep. (that was a joke btw).

Whether it belongs here or not is another question.

Namyeknom:

I believe as its a discussion of The North Pacific nations view on this event... [snip]

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Exactly, but the MoEA is the logical place for discussion of TNP's views on external matters? Da?

You trying to make my life difficult?

Fine I'll conceed that this discussion could take place in the MoEA as well. And if anyone is offended by its presence here, anyone with the power to do so is welcome to move it to the MoEA.

Happy now...

I'm going to go off and sulk.

I was only saying.

I've moved this to EA. In fact, I have put it in Monkeyman's office next to the potted plant, just to annoy him.

The thread currently is sitting in his chair and has its feet up on his desk. It has leafed through his mail, and is about to answer his e-mails and go online with his credit card details. After all this it will leave a coffee cup ring on his fine teak desk.

Hmmm

Thanks Flem, thanks alot.

I live to serve.

Just don't anyone call me the evil admin.

Back to arguing, you lot.