Question and Response

I'm not suggesting anything has to change, I'm simply stating that:

a) I'm bored and I think the constitution sucks

-- and --

b) We would need to sort ourselves out before we started invading people.
 
If we're serious about this, here's a thought.

(Potential mad idea warning)

Why doesn't the government establish a sort of "focus group" or "government study" or whatever you want to call it (the kind of thing real-world governments do all the time) with a smallish group of people (possibly multiple groups, you might want to put similar thinking people together or not, I don't know) to look at this issue, give them some time to discuss it (possibly a section on the forum) and then report back their findings/opinions so we have something to base our next step on.

We could have multiple groups tackling the issue from different sides, they can look at other, active, feeder and non-feeder regions, perhaps the MoEA can arrange for them to speak with other governments if they so wish... that sort of thing, so that they can come up with some suggestions on what to do.

The thinking behind this is, frequently threads like this one fail to actually address an issue, they talk around it, bemoan it and people throw a few ideas about with out acheiving anything solid. Perhaps this way we can get a couple of solid ideas down for us to consider where TNP is going.
 
Late to the discussion, but "Sir, your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter." sums it up.

I don't know if the lact of conflict is what has led to the stagnation, but I think the lack of a cause is definitely part. Conflict can certainly be a cause, but so can expansion of TNPE. I shall continue to cogitate - it'll give me something to do during staff meeting this afternoon. :eyeroll:
 
The colony thing isn't such a bad idea if you think about it.

We've got a rather decent number of capable diplomats. We've got a fair number of people besides who are very good at manipulation. Several names immediately pop into my mind that would be very good at this, and probably willing. The colonies will be able to run themselves, for the most part, but will be protected by and under the overall leadership of us. They have the ability to represent themselves in our government, thus getting some say in what they're allowed to do as colonies. Overall, it's win-win.

Imperialistic Conquest is not what TNP is set up to do right now. We are traditionally a defender region - many of our alliances are set up on that standard. If we suddenly use the NPA to forcibly take over a region, we lose a great number of allies - or at least get several of them very pissed off at us. Through peaceful take over, which is something we're going to be much better at anyway, we keep our allies, expand our fledgeling empire, and suddenly have a lot more to do.

Our current interior structure is fine. We have a secure forum, a stable government, and plenty of active people. So why are things seeming to go downhill? Because all the active people are getting bored because of a lack of stuff to do. If we find a goal, any "problems" that currently exist will probably magically vanish. Those that don't probably won't be that hard to fix, especially once everyone gets off their collective bums and gets interested again. So we kill two birds with one stone through this plan - create this empire everyone seems to want, and fix up our own region in the process. By opening our doors to other regions, we also introduce the possibility for an even more active citizenry, allowing more views on how to fix any problems or on how to expand further, and it all eventually builds up to a very happy future. Yippie-kiy-yay.
 
Hersfold, you're not giving TNP a goal, you're just gonna make more problems.

First of all, we have nothing to offer these new regions.

Secondly, Stable does not mean good. *cough*TEP*cough*

Thirdly, Perhaps you'd care to list those of us who'd be capable and willing of convincing those colonies to join us? I'll support them for MoEA next elections.
 
To add to the colonization idea; how about we get a couple of active members here to start player created regions built as colonies. Just an idea :huh:
 
ator people:
To add to the colonization idea; how about we get a couple of active members here to start player created regions built as colonies.  Just an idea :huh:
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Wouldn't they be better served working in TNP to improve our situation?

The Colony idea was not the only idea that was throw around, it was just one of many. Perhaps if we could as Haor Chall said, create a group that would see if there is a legitimate problem and advice on how to improve it, things would be clearer?

Seems that everyone is jumping on the colony bandwagon without actually thinking it through. It's a cool idea, yes, but can we manage it and will it make life any better in TNP?
 
GoalVa says that there needs to be a focus internaly to clean up, for ex. the constitution and such. But without actualy starting something to do, like for ex. the conquering (because it sounds cool if nothing else), nothing would trigger these internal changes.

Most things are managed and handled while in progres of something else. Nobody will work just for the sake of it.
 
Yes, but no-one seems sure what the problem is.

Perhaps it would be better to discover the ailment before we attempt a cure.
 
I believe that the proces of the cure would be: We start doing something and if the constitution stops us we take that part out. You cannot really know the a problem until it hinders you.
 
So you're suggesting we just chop out any part of the constitution that gets in our way?

I'll get my Machete!
 
Sounds crude, I know. But if it hinders you, and most of the people agree, then that's the way to go. It should reflect the players desire, not a wall that you keep bashing.
 
GoalVA:
Yes, but no-one seems sure what the problem is.

Perhaps it would be better to discover the ailment before we attempt a cure.
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Ailment: People don't care because they have nothing to do.

Cure: Something to do. See above.

As for who would work for convicing regions to join us....

Diplomatic Corps, including:

GoalVA
Haor Chall
Great Bights Mum
Ermarian
Fedele
Namyeknom
OPArsenal

And others, such as:

Moldavi
Insane Power
Poltsamaa, if he would lay off the !! (:P)
Democratic Donkeys
Erastide
Flemingovia
Myself
Romanoffia
WishyWashyWonder
Wizardofoz01

And just because I don't name someone does not mean they wouldn't be good for the job.

If anything, let's at least give this a shot. The worst that can happen is we end up talking to people for months without gaining much. The point is, it still gives us something to do, thereby increasing activity and theoretically fixing the problem.

Edit: Proposal's up.
 
You still haven't explained what we've got that would make colonies want to join us:

Protection? We have no Army;
Good Government? We have a spralling bureaucracy which is a joke in some parts of the multiverse;
Stability? We've been stable for around six months now...

This all seems rather hashed out rather than considered carefully. Peacefully creating colonies is not interesting, it adds another position to our already overloaded government, it makes us responsible for the actions of other regions...

All in all, I'd say this was a bad idea.
 
Seeing as there is some question about the practicality of all this I would like to go out and try to get a region to agree to this (Not LWU :P ) and if I am able to do so we will know it is practical.

Hell, it's better than all this chalkboard crap.

As for the new position, we can just toss it at our External Affairs guy. ;)
 
Also recall that some of us would love to go play diplomat, but, for various constitutional reasons, cannot . . . :shifty:

Edit - maybe the problem is the A key, not me . . .
 
It was suggested that the threat of force would be neccesary to convince people to become colonies. I was simply stating that we had no force with which to threaten.

I'm still curious as to why soveriegn nations would wish to give up their sovereignty for us... we're not that special aside from being a feeder.
 
Heh, that's why the 1st region should be taken by force. But I'm getting off point. As I said most things get done while in motion. The 1st stone needs to be thrown.
 
Well whatever. This plan seems very badly hashed out.

If it fails, it'll fail. I guess we'll live and die by that decision. I'll say no more on the matter.
 
Hersfold:
Imperialistic Conquest is not what TNP is set up to do right now. We are traditionally a defender region - many of our alliances are set up on that standard. If we suddenly use the NPA to forcibly take over a region, we lose a great number of allies - or at least get several of them very pissed off at us. Through peaceful take over, which is something we're going to be much better at anyway, we keep our allies, expand our fledgeling empire, and suddenly have a lot more to do.
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How many important alliances does TNP have that are so vital that doing something that would result in severing that alliance would seriously harm TNP?

Anyway, I can pretty much guarantee that it would be much easier to turn the NPA into something worthwhile if the NPA had a real purpose other than protecting small, no-name regions late at night.

[nation's name removed]
Received: 187 days agoSo you are an ineffectual status quo organization.
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The NPA TGed most every UN in TNP back sometime during the summer, with dreadful results. That is an actual response I got, after I explained to the person that the NPA was neutral (this nation had "neutrality cemented into its constitution") and such.

Needless to say, that nation never joined the NPA. People simply don't care to join an organization that doesn't do anything. The NPA certainly can't handle taking and holding colonies right now, but it is a possibility for in the future.

Anyway, I'll go back to not being here, now.
 
Thanks for that bit of input.


So, can I start recruiting for our imperialist army yet? ;)


Edit: wooops
 
Hersfold:
And others, such as:

Moldavi
Insane Power
Poltsamaa, if he would lay off the !! (:P)
Democratic Donkeys
Erastide
Flemingovia
Myself
Romanoffia
WishyWashyWonder
Wizardofoz01

And just because I don't name someone does not mean they wouldn't be good for the job.

If anything, let's at least give this a shot. The worst that can happen is we end up talking to people for months without gaining much. The point is, it still gives us something to do, thereby increasing activity and theoretically fixing the problem.
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Ermm....I never put my name to this.

I am not sure yet if I agree with it. I think perhaps we are just going for the first answer offered, when we should be exploring possibilities.

Whatever we decide, needs a vote and universal acceptance, this idea....is just that....an idea, lets keep roling them until we are happy.

This takes no account of how our allies in NS may feel and seems a tad lept into...lets keep the ideas flowing not try to make one solution fix the problem!
 
Well, I was going to post something sooner or later, Nova, Flem's questions just prompted me to do it now.

Anyway, I'll post a few more times before completely disappearing to try and keep things on track. The Imperialist idea sounds good, but it is something that has to happen later. And Colonies are not going to be the cure-all some seem to think. It was going to be the topper for after the rest of the reforms and such.

Problems in TNP's internal structure:
  • Executive Branch, especially Delegate, is too weak. Aside from Deikura, who apparently has been busy trying to clean up and verify the RV list, most of us have been rather bored. Goal had work to do, but most of it was unnecessary jumping through hoops type stuff. Erastide is a good delegate, because she doesn't want to be politically or governmentally involved, but not all delegates will be like that. The Cabinet does not lead the region, the Cabinet does not even serve the region. Right now, at least a few of us have felt chained and enslaved by the Constitution and Laws. The Cabinet needs power, and the people have to accept that they have to trust their elected officials. Remember, if the Delegate gets bored or annoyed, all this goes out the window. This government runs the region with the permission and approval of the Delegate, not the other way around. The Government must reflect this.
  • The Security Council is just another bureaucratic impediment, with more elected positions to fill and further spread out the already limited pool of people willing to run for office. Once again, the people need to learn to trust the Cabinet and Delegate to keep the security of the region in mind.
  • The Regional Assembly simply complicates things. The Registered Voters can easily handle all that the RA does. The Voters should also agree to give their elected Ministers more control to truly run the region.
  • The Judicial system needs to be cut down and revamped. As has been evidenced both by our and TWP's recent experiences, NS Communities, even Feeder ones, are not designed or fit to accomodate trial systems that mimic real life.
  • The Constitution and Legal Code's are big and bulky and cumbersome and too successful in limiting government powers. It doesn't have to necessarily go away completely, but all areas can be heavily cut down and some can be cut out (the Regional Assembly). The various Ministries can publish their own procedures and guidelines, allowing those to be removed from the Constitution.
  • There are to many positions. The Ministry of Culture and Education can be incorporated into Communications and/or Internal Affairs. The Security Council can be removed. The Vice Delegate position can be removed. The Prime Minister could potentially be rolled into the Delegate position as well. No offense to those in those positions, of course.
  • There is too much Government and too little else. The Focus for the past year has been on the Government of TNP. Well, people, we've managed to build as stable and democratic a Feeder as can be had, now figure out how to make it work and last. An important part of that would be to introduce new things. Get the Roleplay started, restart the map project, something. But taking Colonies alone is not what must be done. The problem isn't that there isn't enough to do in TNP, but simply that no one seems to care to do those things.
 
After reading through this, I'm thinking the big problem is that the long-timers here are bored because there aren't many new people around.

I don't really like the idea of becoming an imperialist force because NS is diaspora-heavy, in that the only thing keeping nations in a particular region is fondness for the name or the other nations (who can move as well). We have to wonder what it is about our size, stability, ponderous constitution, activity, forum, etc that would make them want to stay in an occupied zone. What would we actually do with these colonies that would make them better or as good as just residing in TNP? Do we want to test forms of governance? Corner the market in supporting UN proposals?

It's likely that some of the people in the gazillion regions with less than 30 nations in them are bored as well and would want to do something new as well... is that something cultural, diplomatic or militaristic? Or is a temporary military takeover the best way to advertise in regions where we can't use the RMB? That might be a better tactic than trying to hold regions.

I think it's cool that people are talking about things (especially when i have a light semester), but what fleshing out are we going to be able to do here?
 
Gah. I hate popular topics. It's so difficult to respond.

Goal:
You still haven't explained what we've got that would make colonies want to join us:...
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Well, if we've been stable for a while, I think that's something to offer. We've been so paranoid lately I doubt that's going to change in the near future. As for protection, that's part of what this is for. Once we get more than one colony, we can merge their military forces together. What's left of the NPA will only help to boost that. Good Government - that may be something we'll have to work on, but they will be able to help with that. The chance to be a part of a soon-to-be-major empire - something we'll have to work on again, but with a little luck, it'll happen. No need to worry about external affairs, citizenship in TNP... there's quite a bit to offer.

Seeing as there is some question about the practicality of all this I would like to go out and try to get a region to agree to this (Not LWU :P ) and if I am able to do so we will know it is practical.

Hell, it's better than all this chalkboard crap.
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I will also attempt this - I have a contact in another region that I might be able to use to help me out.

Anyway, I can pretty much guarantee that it would be much easier to turn the NPA into something worthwhile if the NPA had a real purpose other than protecting small, no-name regions late at night.
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Defending colonies? With the addition of foreign forces, it should help.

The NPA certainly can't handle taking and holding colonies right now, but it is a possibility for in the future.
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Which is why we should stick to diplomacy for the time being. If you really want to, try to get it geared up for an invasion, and then we may be able to take a region by force. But I really don't think that's a good idea, because the people aren't going to like us taking over, and will probably try to take their region back.

Ermm....I never put my name to this.
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No, I was just saying that you would probably be good at it if you wanted to.

Problems in TNP's internal structure:
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Wow, that's a long list. No, the colonies won't cure everything, and they most certaintly won't do THAT much. But they will provide help to start working on those problems. As I've said, the new citizens can provide new viewpoints on how to improve these situations, and help us help ourselves.
 
I think this idea has a possibility, but we need to find out if other regions would be interested. Let us know if you've found an interested region, and I think my support for this would increase. The benefits of colonization could be huge!, but we need to do it first.
 
I will simply add that it is not unheard of - I proposed a simpler structure of protectoracy (in exchange for minor adjustments to sovereignty, especially as regards foreign affairs) in Stars. I was very close to closing the deal with another region to become a protectorate of Stars when RL dropped their founder's activity to near zero, and the negotiations fizzled when no one on the other end wanted to take control in his absence.

Carry on.
 
Heft:
Problems in TNP's internal structure:
  • Executive Branch, especially Delegate, is too weak. Aside from Deikura, who apparently has been busy trying to clean up and verify the RV list, most of us have been rather bored. Goal had work to do, but most of it was unnecessary jumping through hoops type stuff. Erastide is a good delegate, because she doesn't want to be politically or governmentally involved, but not all delegates will be like that. The Cabinet does not lead the region, the Cabinet does not even serve the region. Right now, at least a few of us have felt chained and enslaved by the Constitution and Laws. The Cabinet needs power, and the people have to accept that they have to trust their elected officials. Remember, if the Delegate gets bored or annoyed, all this goes out the window. This government runs the region with the permission and approval of the Delegate, not the other way around. The Government must reflect this.
  • The Security Council is just another bureaucratic impediment, with more elected positions to fill and further spread out the already limited pool of people willing to run for office. Once again, the people need to learn to trust the Cabinet and Delegate to keep the security of the region in mind.
  • The Regional Assembly simply complicates things. The Registered Voters can easily handle all that the RA does. The Voters should also agree to give their elected Ministers more control to truly run the region.
  • The Judicial system needs to be cut down and revamped. As has been evidenced both by our and TWP's recent experiences, NS Communities, even Feeder ones, are not designed or fit to accomodate trial systems that mimic real life.
  • The Constitution and Legal Code's are big and bulky and cumbersome and too successful in limiting government powers. It doesn't have to necessarily go away completely, but all areas can be heavily cut down and some can be cut out (the Regional Assembly). The various Ministries can publish their own procedures and guidelines, allowing those to be removed from the Constitution.
  • There are to many positions. The Ministry of Culture and Education can be incorporated into Communications and/or Internal Affairs. The Security Council can be removed. The Vice Delegate position can be removed. The Prime Minister could potentially be rolled into the Delegate position as well. No offense to those in those positions, of course.
  • There is too much Government and too little else. The Focus for the past year has been on the Government of TNP. Well, people, we've managed to build as stable and democratic a Feeder as can be had, now figure out how to make it work and last. An important part of that would be to introduce new things. Get the Roleplay started, restart the map project, something. But taking Colonies alone is not what must be done. The problem isn't that there isn't enough to do in TNP, but simply that no one seems to care to do those things.
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Reading over this post, I see a few home truths have been realised!! Much of this was what I and a few others were talking about prior to the Constitutional Convention!!

Creating a government in which its officials have no power breeds boredom!! Sure, it is great for security but as far as providing an interesting regional political scene it falls well short!!

I agree with much of what Heft has suggested here and believe that it reflects what Goal has been getting at!! We have to make this region interesting and fun for ourselves before we can realistically expect other regions to want to join us if that is the direction we choose to take!!

Elected officials need to be given some scope to work in their portfolio without the need to get permission from the RA and/or Cabinet each time!! The Delegate needs to be given some reason to want to hold the position!! Sure, Erastide is happy to be largely inert in the political scene, but we cannot expect future Delegates to be the same!! As Heft rightly pointed out, the whole government system hinges on the acceptance of that system by the Delegate!! You cannot legislate to prevent a Delegate getting sick of things and going "rogue"!!

If we created a more streamlined government in which the elected officials had more power to act based on their support by the community by way of their election then we can start to make the region more interesting politically and hopefully see more people wanting to run for office as they see it as exciting rather than the drab chore it is at the moment!!

The RA could be scrapped and instead made up of all RV!! We would need some sort of activity requirement to prevent the quorum being unreachable due to inactive nations!!

We have the security, but the region is stagnating under the weight of bureacracy!! We need to branch out and take risks if we are to grow stronger!! Sure, there will be problems but all regions have them and working through the problems is what creates activity and interest!!

As I said earlier...can't tremember which thread...we can choose to change the region to encourage activity or we can settle for the security and a region centred almost solely on the OOC section of the forum!!

Seeing as NS is supposedly a political game, I'd hope there'd be enough of us out there who are interested in revitalising the political scene in the region rather than let it plod along as it is until the next Delegate has enough of it!!
 
Heft:
Well, I was going to post something sooner or later, Nova, Flem's questions just prompted me to do it now.

Anyway, I'll post a few more times before completely disappearing to try and keep things on track. The Imperialist idea sounds good, but it is something that has to happen later. And Colonies are not going to be the cure-all some seem to think. It was going to be the topper for after the rest of the reforms and such.

Problems in TNP's internal structure:
  • Executive Branch, especially Delegate, is too weak. Aside from Deikura, who apparently has been busy trying to clean up and verify the RV list, most of us have been rather bored. Goal had work to do, but most of it was unnecessary jumping through hoops type stuff. Erastide is a good delegate, because she doesn't want to be politically or governmentally involved, but not all delegates will be like that. The Cabinet does not lead the region, the Cabinet does not even serve the region. Right now, at least a few of us have felt chained and enslaved by the Constitution and Laws. The Cabinet needs power, and the people have to accept that they have to trust their elected officials. Remember, if the Delegate gets bored or annoyed, all this goes out the window. This government runs the region with the permission and approval of the Delegate, not the other way around. The Government must reflect this.
  • The Security Council is just another bureaucratic impediment, with more elected positions to fill and further spread out the already limited pool of people willing to run for office. Once again, the people need to learn to trust the Cabinet and Delegate to keep the security of the region in mind.
  • The Regional Assembly simply complicates things. The Registered Voters can easily handle all that the RA does. The Voters should also agree to give their elected Ministers more control to truly run the region.
  • The Judicial system needs to be cut down and revamped. As has been evidenced both by our and TWP's recent experiences, NS Communities, even Feeder ones, are not designed or fit to accomodate trial systems that mimic real life.
  • The Constitution and Legal Code's are big and bulky and cumbersome and too successful in limiting government powers. It doesn't have to necessarily go away completely, but all areas can be heavily cut down and some can be cut out (the Regional Assembly). The various Ministries can publish their own procedures and guidelines, allowing those to be removed from the Constitution.
  • There are to many positions. The Ministry of Culture and Education can be incorporated into Communications and/or Internal Affairs. The Security Council can be removed. The Vice Delegate position can be removed. The Prime Minister could potentially be rolled into the Delegate position as well. No offense to those in those positions, of course.
  • There is too much Government and too little else. The Focus for the past year has been on the Government of TNP. Well, people, we've managed to build as stable and democratic a Feeder as can be had, now figure out how to make it work and last. An important part of that would be to introduce new things. Get the Roleplay started, restart the map project, something. But taking Colonies alone is not what must be done. The problem isn't that there isn't enough to do in TNP, but simply that no one seems to care to do those things.
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I've been thinking about several of these points.

What I would like to see is the role of the Prime Minister to be increased to the point that it is a genuine chief executive that determines general policy for the government. That is, to make the PM essentially what a PM is in a RL government.

I think the regional assembly, elected ministers and the judicial branch are neccessary in order to preserve a modicum of 'checks and balances'.

The key to this is that we've progressed, in a very short time, from a general/universal democracy and now, given the low level of participation at this time, to a republic of sorts. What we need to avoid is bureaucratic quagmires and generally byzantine arrangements. IOW, as stated above in the quote, we've got a lot of government and not much more. I think changes need to be made, but we need do them somewhat gradually.

Ultimately, if governments have stages and lifespans, we'll ultimately end up being like ancient Rome in our governmental structure. It's probably inevitable, but a changing government that always allows for changes will keep things lively.

I also believe that the Delegate should be given a bigger role, but not to the extent of turning the whole affair into a de facto constitutional monarcy.
 
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