[SC - Passed] Commend Kindjal

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Gorundu

When in doubt, blame Bob
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Commend Kindjal
Category: Commendation | Nominee: Kindjal
Proposed by: Bormiar | Onsite Topic

The Security Council,

Recognizing Kindjal, a definitively utopic nation, to align suitably with the opinions of the World Assembly, which includes laudable international involvement, as well as practically-managed domestic policy,

Flattered by Kindjal’s internationally-beneficial foreign policy, which outlaws weapons of mass destruction, supports research into a space program, and spends the 9th-most in the world on foreign aid,

In agreement with Kindjal’s educated democratic system, which encourages free speech, devolutes management to local authorities in order to target each community specifically, and mandates each citizen’s vote be treated equally, rather than resorting to electoral colleges,

Acclaiming Kindjal’s spectacular services it provides for its billions of citizens, which consists of:

  • A public universal healthcare system (ranked 29th in the world), having an adequate ability to prevent treatment, a basic necessity to life, from causing financial ruin; a capacity to mitigate or even eradicate the effects of both common maladies and obscure diseases; and readiness when faced by emergency- this system has allowed Kindjal to have incredible general health among the citizenry (5th in world), and a lifespan of over a century (2nd),
  • A vitally-important public education system, which, being the top priority of the government expenditure, invests in Kindjali childrens’ future, teaching them of Kindjali culture, values, and life knowledge such as sex education, and has allowed Kindjal to maintain a highly intelligent population (3rd in world),
  • A safe, public transport alternative to dangerous automobiles which nearly eliminates cursing when commuting to work, and makes people happier and safer,


Proud of Kindjal’s rehabilitative law enforcement structure, which, having enforced a widespread demilitarized population, has nearly eradicated murder, and choking toddlers,

Impressed by Kindjal's AI-run economy, which has spurred the nation into becoming highly honest and unlikely to foster bribery or corruption,

Pleased by Kindjal's inclusiveness (2nd in world), which celebrates freedom to choose to marry those of the same sex as them, and encourages a heterogeneous population,

Documenting its other genial characteristics, such as a compassionate (1st in world), and nice (1st in world) population,

Closely Observing a beautiful environment in Kindjal, first in the world for not only its stunningness but also its satisfyingly sunny weather, cultivated by the governments eco-friendly policies, such as banning animal imprisonment, investing in a detailed climate change prevention program, and spending trillions of kins (currency of Kindjal) on maintaining a stunning ecosystem,

Jealous of the tens of millions of tourists (Kindjal is 1st in the world for tourism) that frequent the culturally significant nation yearly, as Kindjal maintains an educated and refined society,

Aware that achieving these legendary feats is no easy task, as it takes years of carefully refining a nation’s decisions and policies, and mistakes in a radically-utopic nation lead to radically destructive consequences,

Lauding Kindjal as a shining example to the world of being led with tenacity, determination, resolve, intelligence, activity, and persistence, even through the most detrimental of poor choices,

Hereby resolutely commends Kindjal.
Voting Instructions:
  • Vote For if you want the Delegate to vote For the resolution.
  • Vote Against if you want the Delegate to vote Against the resolution.
  • Vote Abstain if you want the Delegate to abstain from voting on this resolution.
  • Vote Present if you are personally abstaining from this vote.

Detailed opinions with your vote are appreciated and encouraged!
 

St George

Speaker
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Although much maligned, issue answering is essentially the purest form of NationStates, requiring no external involvement of scripts, or forums or anything like that and Kindjal seems to be very accomplished at picking the right option for how they view their nation. It's certainly a well written resolution too.

I vote For.
 

Kuriko

TNPer
I think this is a great & unique proposal. Bormiar has clearly done his research on this and has also engaged very fairly with some unfriendly banter on the NS forums.

I vote For
I would like to point out that my banter isn't unfriendly, rather I'm trying to get the author to argue as to why we should commend an issues answerer. If it seems unfriendly that wasn't my intent.
 

Praetor

Hoppin' Around
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Against.

I have no idea why this individual is commendable. I have been a long time issue answerer and I can tell you that answering issues is not difficult. After a while, you tend to see the same issues repeat themselves which you can answer in the same way. Keep in mind that when NS first started, there were even less issues so it would be even more repetitive.

Furthermore, the issue has had no interaction with the larger community. As such, they are not contributing anything to the NS world. They have not been helping out other players answer issues, resolve effects, write issues, etc. Why are we commending someone who has not helped make NS a better place?

Critics are attempting to note that the opposition is just bias against issues. Which is entirely false, I have previously supported commendations and/or commendations for issue authors, individuals who are contributing to NS and making the game better. I remain unconvinced that NS is improved by any noticeable measure by the nominee's existence.

Lastly, I would like to note that some of the opposition in the NS forums have had to deal with some unfriendly banter (since apparently that matters McM?) with critics accusing them of not having experience answering issues—a quick glance at my profile page would easily show that this is false.
 

Bormiar

Deputy Minister
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I have no idea why this individual is commendable. I have been a long time issue answerer and I can tell you that answering issues is not difficult.
If we're going by experience, here are comments from the two really successful issues answerers in the thread:
  • Ransium, Issues player and IE ([1][2])
  • Pencil Sharpeners 2 ([1])

Furthermore, the issue has had no interaction with the larger community. As such, they are not contributing anything to the NS world. They have not been helping out other players answer issues, resolve effects, write issues, etc. Why are we commending someone who has not helped make NS a better place?
It's very clique-y to mandate communication to receive a World Assembly commendation, see why here: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=36814166#p36814166

Regardless, PS2's powerful statement above makes a strong rebuttal against the belief that Kindjal hasn't (even indirectly), significantly benefited the world.

I fully support this

When I started the game back in 2014, I looked at the World census every day (back before live rankings were a thing) and noticed that Kindjal always seemed to be either top or bottom. Seeing that level of World Census dominance was something that I aspired to, and was one of the early drivers in getting me hooked on the game.

This level of dedication and consistent success over 17+ years is not an easy task. There have been changes to how rankings are calculated, new rankings added, hundreds of new issues, and significant changes to the effects of old issues. yet, throughout it all, Kindjal is one of the few nations to always be at the top. I don't think anyone else has as many #1 rankings as she does.
And even then, it is in this example within the World Assembly's prerogative and principles to choose to encourage issue-answering, playing the game by passing this commendation. Even if you hold the easily-refuted opinion that Kindjal hasn't done a great job, or if you hold the opinion that Kindjal has not inspired nations (via disregarding the above), it is of the opinion of me that Kindjal achieving this is encouragement in and of itself.

Critics are attempting to note that the opposition is just bias against issues. Which is entirely false, I have previously supported commendations and/or commendations for issue authors, individuals who are contributing to NS and making the game better.
Maybe not for you, but I see where they're coming from that there is bias against issue answering. Your example was regarding commendations for issue authors, not issue answerers.

As if issue-answering hasn't been commended before. Tldr; it has. Multiple times.

Lastly, I would like to note that some of the opposition in the NS forums have had to deal with some unfriendly banter (since apparently that matters McM?) with critics accusing them of not having experience answering issues—a quick glance at my profile page would easily show that this is false.
I think McM was calling the opposition the ones creating the unfriendly banter. Remember that in this case, you're the "critics" (you called the proposal supporters critics) and "opposition", not me.
 

Armandlandia

Federal Republic of Armandlandia
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I vote against.

Although this nation has many great factors for its citizens, this nation is almost dystopian-like. Their citizens are making a decent earning, but then are taxed 100% of their support. How could one support themselves in this country, especially since their is no single leader, there is a national curfew, and the government has complete control of everything? It is nice to have many luxuries of public transport, climate treaties, universal health care, etc. however these citizens cannot have any profit, and whatever they are trying to get (ie. food, medicine, etc) they HAVE to go through the government.

Secondly, they are only active in issues and nothing further. Anyone could be better than this country by simply answering issues. If a nation is to be commended they need to be active in their region, and the World Assembly. We practically do not know the leader of the nation mainly because all they do is answer issues, which is not the best way to be "active." Although the nation is ranked high on many great topics (ie pacifism) they would need to be more active in their region, and World Assembly.
 

mcmasterdonia

TNPer
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@Praetor i think as a whole it probably doesn’t matter in the scheme of things if some people are engaging in unfriendly banter. The WA forums are known for that.

Ultimately my point is that I think Bormiar himself has engaged with that fairly and maturely and has attempted to address those concerns. Given how some proposal authors can refuse to engage or are frankly, equally as hostile, I appreciate the way he conducted himself when advocating for something he believes in.
 

St George

Speaker
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Secondly, they are only active in issues and nothing further. Anyone could be better than this country by simply answering issues. If a nation is to be commended they need to be active in their region, and the World Assembly. We practically do not know the leader of the nation mainly because all they do is answer issues, which is not the best way to be "active." Although the nation is ranked high on many great topics (ie pacifism) they would need to be more active in their region, and World Assembly.
Many commended nations are not active in the World Assembly or their region.
 

Bormiar

Deputy Minister
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For (WA in TNP).

Although this nation has many great factors for its citizens, this nation is almost dystopian-like. Their citizens are making a decent earning, but then are taxed 100% of their support. How could one support themselves in this country, especially since their is no single leader, there is a national curfew, and the government has complete control of everything? It is nice to have many luxuries of public transport, climate treaties, universal health care, etc. however these citizens cannot have any profit, and whatever they are trying to get (ie. food, medicine, etc) they HAVE to go through the government.
That's fair, and I definitely considered it from an IC stand-point, but NationStates nations aren't quite like real-world counterparts. Decisions that might be detrimental in a real world nation really help the nation. For example, speaking as someone who recently spent 2 and a half hours waiting at the DMV for something that took 15 minutes, I think a government-run healthcare system might not work too well (iirc the Obama care website used to be terrible), yet they're still doing amazingly in health. So I think that in NationStates nations' (when factoring in integrity, which Kindjal does excellently in) governments are efficiently run. Also explains the high cheerfulness and such.

Secondly, they are only active in issues and nothing further. Anyone could be better than this country by simply answering issues. If a nation is to be commended they need to be active in their region, and the World Assembly. We practically do not know the leader of the nation mainly because all they do is answer issues, which is not the best way to be "active." Although the nation is ranked high on many great topics (ie pacifism) they would need to be more active in their region, and World Assembly.
It is not unprecedented for a nation or region to be partially commended for issues. The difference is the fallacious belief that, upon increasing the intensity and extent of the issue answering, it cannot stand alone.

More on it here: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=36814166#p36814166

Many commended nations are not active in the World Assembly or their region.
I know at least that Koem Kab doesn't really talk to people. They don't seem to care about the WA and don't participate in regions.

Ultimately my point is that I think Bormiar himself has engaged with that fairly and maturely and has attempted to address those concerns. Given how some proposal authors can refuse to engage or are frankly, equally as hostile, I appreciate the way he conducted himself when advocating for something he believes in.
Thanks McM :).
 
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Fregerson

Secretly here
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I like how Bormiar has always comes up with innovative ways to commend and condemn people for various things apart from Gameplay/WA Contribution, bringing those proposals up especially on people which may not know beforehand. The SC has a history of commending people for their contributions elsewhere, including issue editors, mentors, etc that contribute to NS. Honestly, I find this proposal well written and would gladly support it.
 

Praetor

Hoppin' Around
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If we're going by experience, here are comments from the two really successful issues answerers in the thread:
  • Ransium, Issues player and IE ([1][2])
  • Pencil Sharpeners 2 ([1])
:blink:

Ah yes, Ransium and Pencil Sharpeners are successful issues answerers and I am not? I am a younger nation than both—yet, in regards to Ransium I have more trophies. You are welcome to try and ignore my accomplishments in issue answering but they stand for themselves.
It's very clique-y to mandate communication to receive a World Assembly commendation, see why here: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=36814166#p36814166

Regardless, PS2's powerful statement above makes a strong rebuttal against the belief that Kindjal hasn't (even indirectly), significantly benefited the world.
I have reached out to the nation to see if they speak English. If they don't, fortunately, I happen to be fluent in French. :)

And even then, it is in this example within the World Assembly's prerogative and principles to choose to encourage issue-answering, playing the game by passing this commendation. Even if you hold the easily-refuted opinion that Kindjal hasn't done a great job, or if you hold the opinion that Kindjal has not inspired nations (via disregarding the above), it is of the opinion of me that Kindjal achieving this is encouragement in and of itself.

Maybe not for you, but I see where they're coming from that there is bias against issue answering. Your example was regarding commendations for issue authors, not issue answerers.

As if issue-answering hasn't been commended before. Tldr; it has. Multiple times.
Sure, the World Assembly can decide it wants to give a commendation for literally answering issues. Something that takes about a dozen minutes a day and becomes quite repetitive if you aren't changing the characteristics of your nation a lot. The only reason that the nation is so prominent in the rankings is because they have had all this time for the changes to stack.

The line of argument differentiating the issue writing and issue answering communities holds as much water as saying that the SC has a bias against raiders for not commending COE. :eyeroll:

I think McM was calling the opposition the ones creating the unfriendly banter. Remember that in this case, you're the "critics" (you called the proposal supporters critics) and "opposition", not me.
Perhaps you should read my post more carefully. I had no problems understanding McM's post. I am not the critics in my post if you read it. I called those disagreeing with the opposition their critics. My point stands.

@Praetor i think as a whole it probably doesn’t matter in the scheme of things if some people are engaging in unfriendly banter. The WA forums are known for that.

Ultimately my point is that I think Bormiar himself has engaged with that fairly and maturely and has attempted to address those concerns. Given how some proposal authors can refuse to engage or are frankly, equally as hostile, I appreciate the way he conducted himself when advocating for something he believes in.
The clarification is appreciated. Ultimately, I don't think that means the nominee is anymore commendable though. :P
Many commended nations are not active in the World Assembly or their region.
This nominee is only active in their nation however. >.>
 

Ras

TNPer
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:blink:

Ah yes, Ransium and Pencil Sharpeners are successful issues answerers and I am not? I am a younger nation than both—yet, in regards to Ransium I have more trophies. You are welcome to try and ignore my accomplishments in issue answering but they stand for themselves.
In all fairness, I don’t answer issues with a goal of maximizing the number of trophies I have. I don’t think there’s a single metric that can be used to say who is the bestest issue answerer in NS, it’s all about ones goals for their nation.
 
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Bormiar

Deputy Minister
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:blink:

Ah yes, Ransium and Pencil Sharpeners are successful issues answerers and I am not? I am a younger nation than both—yet, in regards to Ransium I have more trophies. You are welcome to try and ignore my accomplishments in issue answering but they stand for themselves.
I wouldn't hype yourself up. Ransium is an IE and issues author who actually had a philosophical understanding of issues even before that, judging by their comments on how they analyzed weather before being an IE.

PS2 has had a wide variety of different types of nations for a long time, and is often seen having gone very far (examples like Askatopia)- certainly better than just one type of nation.

Here's another one: Valentine Z, who also has quite a bit more of a name-drop in issues than you.

If you're going to try and throw weight around by saying "I answer issues", it won't match up to those who study issues.

I have reached out to the nation to see if they speak English. If they don't, fortunately, I happen to be fluent in French. :)
Well that wasn't timeless for you, considering they said they used to roleplay but it was too hard with their English ability.

Sure, the World Assembly can decide it wants to give a commendation for literally answering issues. Something that takes about a dozen minutes a day and becomes quite repetitive if you aren't changing the characteristics of your nation a lot. The only reason that the nation is so prominent in the rankings is because they have had all this time for the changes to stack.
"Sure, the World Assembly can decide it wants to give a commendation for answering issues well for 17 years. Something that takes about a dozen minutes a day and becomes a few thousand hours of work into something they can do despite the language barrier they face. One of the reasons that the nation is so prominent in the rankings is because they have devoted so much time in answering so many issues and have gotten returns for that."

Perhaps you should read my post more carefully. I had no problems understanding McM's post. I am not the critics in my post if you read it. I called those disagreeing with the opposition their critics. My point stands.
And the usage of "critics" there is confusing and makes no sense.
 

Praetor

Hoppin' Around
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In all fairness, I don’t answer issues with a goal of maximizing the number of trophies I have. I don’t think there’s a single metric that can be used to say who is the bestest issue answerer in NS, it’s all about ones goals for their nation.
That's certainly fair. I know that based on the goals for my nation I will not achieve the quantity of trophies others will.
I wouldn't hype yourself up. Ransium is an IE and issues author who actually had a philosophical understanding of issues even before that, judging by their comments on how they analyzed weather before being an IE.

PS2 has had a wide variety of different types of nations for a long time, and is often seen having gone very far (examples like Askatopia)- certainly better than just one type of nation.

Here's another one: Valentine Z, who also has quite a bit more of a name-drop in issues than you.

If you're going to try and throw weight around by saying "I answer issues", it won't match up to those who study issues.
Your continued dismissal of my experience in answering issues is both noted and ignored.

Seems like reaching out to contact them wasn't really that hard after all. ;)
"Sure, the World Assembly can decide it wants to give a commendation for answering issues well for 17 years. Something that takes about a dozen minutes a day and becomes a few thousand hours of work into something they can do despite the language barrier they face. One of the reasons that the nation is so prominent in the rankings is because they have devoted so much time in answering so many issues and have gotten returns for that."
Again, the reason that the nation is so prominent in the rankings is because they have been able to repeatedly answer issues in the same manner again and again building up their nation and pushing it further in the direction they have wanted it to go. It does not take significant work when confronted with the same issue that the player has already been presented.

Unfortunately, given the resolution is passing, I'll have to settle with hoping that the resolution is repealed in the future.
And the usage of "critics" there is confusing and makes no sense.
Makes sense if you read it. ;)
 

Bormiar

Deputy Minister
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Your continued dismissal of my experience in answering issues is both noted and ignored.
I’m just saying if you want to flex experience, you’ve got nothing on those guys. To re-iterate, IEs Sedgistan, Pogaria, Ransium, and Candlewhisper Archive all voted for. Normally I wouldn’t care, but it’s an incomplete representation to suggest that those more experienced in issues are against this.

I suppose I could ignore you too, but that’s not good debating, and it’s rude for an author or asserter to do that.

Seems like reaching out to contact them wasn't really that hard after all. ;)
I’ve forgotten why this matters.

But really? Where other attempts at commendation failed, it took sending the proposal to vote and passing it (that is to say, it is currently passing) to pull Kindjal out of her quiet, unresponsive state. I’m flattered that that looked easy to you.


Again, the reason that the nation is so prominent in the rankings is because they have been able to repeatedly answer issues in the same manner again and again building up their nation and pushing it further in the direction they have wanted it to go. It does not take significant work when confronted with the same issue that the player has already been presented.
I’m unphased by the suggestion that, even in advent of new issues and censuses, Kindjal had to have dedicatedly “brute force” her way to the top.

Our great cards program would never exist without r3n’s brute force, but by your standards that’s not commendable.
 

Praetor

Hoppin' Around
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I’m just saying if you want to flex experience, you’ve got nothing on those guys. To re-iterate, IEs Sedgistan, Pogaria, Ransium, and Candlewhisper Archive all voted for. Normally I wouldn’t care, but it’s an incomplete representation to suggest that those more experienced in issues are against this.

I suppose I could ignore you too, but that’s not good debating, and it’s rude for an author or asserter to do that.


I’ve forgotten why this matters.

But really? Where other attempts at commendation failed, it took sending the proposal to vote and passing it (that is to say, it is currently passing) to pull Kindjal out of her quiet, unresponsive state. I’m flattered that that looked easy to you.



I’m unphased by the suggestion that, even in advent of new issues and censuses, Kindjal had to have dedicatedly “brute force” her way to the top.

Our great cards program would never exist without r3n’s brute force, but by your standards that’s not commendable.
I was never flexing. :eyeroll: I was responding to lines of argument that those opposed did not have sufficient experience answering issues: a patently false narrative.

As for cards, the effort exerted by r3n in running parts of the cards programs are indeed only possible by r3n's brute force, however, that is an entirely different magnitude, and one much more significant, than Kindjal's issue answering.
 

Bormiar

Deputy Minister
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We’re starting to repeat the same argument over and over like in the debate thread, and I can’t find anything novel. Clearly, the majority of the Security Council disagrees. I’m not avoiding debate because there simply isn’t anything that hasn’t been debated left.

I’d understand if you can’t relate, but I have other WASC things to do, so once I feel as though I’ve sufficiently done my job in defending one proposal, I’d like to move on to the next.
 
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