December 14, 2019
[4:53 AM]
Lady Raven Wing: We do have an indictment of Whole India @The Bestest of Persons @Zyvet
https://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/6989211/page-6#post-10293662
The North Pacific
Court Filings
The request for indictment is accepted. I will be the moderating justice.
[4:54 AM]
Lady Raven Wing: Thoughts?
[5:25 AM]
Lady Raven Wing: I have to express confusion at what is meant in the 4th paragraph of the summary, but it could be me
[7:44 PM]
Zyvet: <.<
[8:38 PM]
Zyvet: My sense is that it is to mean that the Attorney, having seen the TG sent by Red Back, noticed it was sent prior to the posting of the campaign by the proposed Defendant and that from this one can deduce that the telegram posted is false, as one can surmise that Red Back would not ask the Defendant to stop a campaign that had not started
[8:41 PM]
Zyvet: Does the first link function for you?
[8:44 PM]
Zyvet: To me it does not display as being archived. The forum thread proper is still there and presumably the reason for the archive is because of the risk of the Defendant editing the posts in it, but it does not seem to have been archived?
[8:50 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Gotcha, makes more sense that what I had puzzled out
[8:50 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: The first link to Wayback does look archived
[8:55 PM]
Zyvet: Hmm
[8:59 PM]
Zyvet: Am I missing something, because I don't actually think that that TG is exhibited?
[9:01 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: I don't think so either, which was a bit of my confusion
[9:14 PM]
Zyvet: Hmm, the first link seems to be working for me now
[9:33 PM]
Zyvet: So, in terms of approaching whether or not to accept the indictment, it seems to me that the question is whether, on the evidence presented, a trial is merited, in the sense that if the evidence were found to be true, the Defendant would be guilty in, essentially, the way alleged by the Attorney. Broadly, I think at this stage it is appropriate to accept the evidence at face value, unless it is obviously implausible, and not to consider what may be put forward in defence. That makes sense to me, as at this stage there is no involvement of the Defendant under the rules, it fits, broadly, with RL and other regional courts I am familiar with, and it is more or less what the Advisory Opinion (<.<) has to say on the matter.
As to the particular offence: clearly intentional deception must be alleged; it seems to me that the Deputy Attorney's summary is one alleging falsehood, rather than omission; both "for some benefit" and "to damage another individual" are alleged as the reasons.
[9:39 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: I would agree with that, the summary/evidence as presented & the crime alleged do seem to be in order enough for a trial
[9:48 PM]
Zyvet: I think that is my view as well.
The deception alleged and evidenced is the claim that Red Back warned the Defendant to leave the election. I think that that is clearly a claim as to a fact, either Red Back gave such warning or did not; as to whether it is material, I think that, if someone were to accept it as true, it arguably is, in that it can reasonably be expected to affect their behaviour to Red Back or the Black Hawks; as to plausibility, I think that there is some difficulty, given that the reactions in the thread exhibited are sceptical, but it seems to me to be a matter for argumentation.
The falsehood is the same as the deception and its falsity is evidenced by the statements of Red Back. I think, logically, if one accepts Red Back's statements and screenshots as true, it follows there must be falsehood.
As to intention, I think it follows from the same evidence as above that, if the screenshots are true, there was no warning and a conclusion that the statements of the Defendant were intentionally false and deceptive follows necessarily.
As to the reasons, these can be established by reasonable expectation and it seems to me that it can be reasonably expected that damage would follow if someone accepted the statements as true and, in any event, as it is a matter that can be established by argumentation, it seems appropriate for trial.
I am unsure on the alleged reason of "for some benefit". I do not think the summary has sufficiently cogently explained that point. However, that does not matter, as I am satisfied that the offence can be proven on the basis of damage to another.
[9:52 PM]
Zyvet: Indictments are a matter for acceptance by the Court as a whole, so I will wait for @The Bestest of Persons, though we have a majority. Perhaps we will be persuaded.
If the indictment is accepted, I have to appoint a moderating justice and an SHO, do either of you wish to moderate or have views on an appropriate SHO?
Also,
@Lady Raven Wing, though I am not sure I think it necessary, it may be appropriate to consider whether any conflict of interest arises in the circumstances. In any event, it may be raised in the trial.
[10:11 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: I would be somewhat interested in being moderating justice - as to potential SHOs, COE has relevant legal experience I understans, Angshire has previously expressed interest in being a Justice (see the last election)
In regards to conflict of interest, I don't believe one arises in the present situation due to RB's essential status as a witness at best in the indictment/potential case. If the situation were to turn around such that RB's statements were the ones in question, then the case for conflict of interest (or appearance of such at least) is much better, but that isn't presently the case.
[10:16 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Also posted in the forumside thread I see you made
[10:20 PM]
Zyvet: As to potential SHOs, I was thinking either COE or Sil, but I think that the SHO actually having their nation flying the TBH flag might be a step too far :stuck_out_tongue: and on reviewing the thread Sil has already commented on the TGs posted by the Defendant, saying they are forged.
I would think Angshire would be interested, but as he is on the external affairs committee, I think he is actually precluded from serving, due to the restriction on service in different branches. Siwale seems a possibility, presuming that they would be fine with the prospect of extra work.
[10:21 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Sorry, to be more explicit I mean that I don't consider knowing (& working with elsewhere) a potential witness to be a conflict of interest, given the sheer inevitability of that
[10:21 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Ah, good point on COE
[10:23 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: And you'd be correct on Angshire, they are a government official and thus precluded
[10:26 PM]
Zyvet: Dreadton also, perhaps, given he is fresh off the court?
[10:26 PM]
Zyvet: Or, freshish
[10:26 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Was just about to suggest them actually
[10:26 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Siwale does also look good, if they're willing to do the work
[10:27 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: As you mentioned
[10:42 PM]
Zyvet: Bootsie, SillyString and Elu also are recent members of the Court who seem good options to me, though I understand SillyString and Elu to be busy RL bees... I think I am minded to ask Dreadton and will see whether he wishes it
[10:50 PM]
Zyvet: (I should say, I am also minded to appoint you to moderate)
[10:55 PM]
Zyvet: Dreadton has indicated he is willing to be SHO, so I think I shall appoint him, if the indictment is accepted. He indicated he is also willing to be counsel for the Defendant, if appointed counsel is needed. Obviously, he cannot be both and the matter of appointing counsel is a bridge to be crossed later.
[11:01 PM]
Lady Raven Wing: Indeed
December 15, 2019
[3:10 AM]
The Bestest of Persons: Sorry about the delay i forgot to mention it here but i suffered an injury to my right hand and am afk for most of the time until it heals. Hold on a bit for me to get upto speed.
[3:19 AM]
The Bestest of Persons: @Zyvet I concur on face value the case should be accepted by the court.
[3:19 AM]
The Bestest of Persons: Also I think COE would be a poor choice due to his activity as of recently then anything else. He just abandoned the office of Election Commissioner.
[3:26 AM]
The Bestest of Persons: And yeah, these review boards really constitute a brain drain in the potential candidates. Cuz I would have suggested Bootsie or Marcus. But both of them are committee members. Dreadton might be a safe bet.
[3:30 AM]
The Bestest of Persons: I would offer to be Moderating Justice but I work in a holiday effected industry and will be pulling a lot of double shifts over the next two weeks.
[1:16 PM]
Zyvet: Right, as we are agreed, I shall forthwith accept the indictment and make appointments of you
@Lady Raven Wing to moderate and Dreadton to be SHO.