[WV] The Declaration of a Citizen in Opposition to the Anti-Religious Sentiments that Plague the Region

I respect and endorse the policy regarding official government media, but I must oppose the decision to do the same to TNPU discussions. I believe the Dean of the University can deliberate which topics are and are not germane for broadcast and to block that pursuit with a blanket policy I believe to be regrettable. Therefore, I must continue to oppose that section of the official policy. I am happy to speak to anyone in DMs, VC, or publicly about these issues as this tumultuous period continues.
 
Broadcasting has inherent Free speech issues because the broadcasters are communicating ideas through the selection of original programming and through the exercise of editorial discretion in determining which shows to include in its offering. By restricting who can broadcast on what topics through the official programming of the government, the government is exercising editorial discretion and thus interacting with the Free Speech rights of our citizens. With limited and well-defined exceptions, our government cannot interfere with our free speech rights. The government must choose to either allow all to broadcast their shows through the government medium (with the limited exceptions defined in our laws) or let no one but the government broadcast through the official government channel. To selectively say, these topics are ok but these are not is a fundamental restriction of speech.


Furthermore, religion can be NS related. Many nations may run their countries under certain religious doctrines. How would this policy stop a nation for discussing how their WA resolution was a direct result of such and such principle the learned from their religion? Or how they worded their bill in a manner to reach their religious goals? Both examples are directly related to NS.
 
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Prydania:
You cannot claim this to be the case across the board though. There are LGBT people of faith for whom their orientation is more important to their identity than their religion. There are LGBT people who are agnostic or atheists whose orientation is more important to them by virtue of faith not playing a role in their lives.
And yes, there are also LGBT people of faith whose religion is more important than their sexual orientation. Still, the point I'm making is that you can't say that faith trumps sexual orientation when it comes to which is a greater part of a person's identity. It's not a universal truth. Human beings are diverse and varied. The priorities of one don't always line up with the priorities of another.
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Absolutely agreed. I did not for one moment mean to say that religion always trumps orientation. Sorry if I made it seem this way.
Prydania:
TNP has a pretty damn good mod team. If someone is actually harassing Wonderess and mocking his faith? There are grounds there for mods to look into that.
Hell, I'm a RP mod. If this person is doing this in the TNP RP subforum or Discord? I'll personally look into it and report it to the wider mod team if there's anything to report. We don't want anyone to feel unwelcome, and if someone is harassing Wonderess under our watch? That is, as I said, grounds to start an investigation into the matter.
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I'm not necessarily saying that anything in particular is actionable, per se. Having said that, one particular incident is being dealt with.
Prydania:
I'm unsure about that. As MJ said, TNP University has an entire section dedicated to Catholic discussion. This doesn't happen in an anti-Catholic environment.

You threw up the comparison between a broadcast about Catholicism and a broadcast about LGBT issues. Which is an apples and oranges comparison, in my opinion. As both a gay man and a person of faith? The two are separate parts of my life. You might as well compare me being religious with being a Toronto Maple Leafs fan. They're two distinct and separate parts of who I am.
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They absolutely are distinct and separate, and I do acknowledge as much. I just am raising the example to point out that RL world issues and identities can and probably would be accepted.

On a broader point, I think this is because of a hostility to faith that some wish to shut down this publication. Other parts of a human identity can be explored, but not religion, it seems. Particularly not Catholicism, it seems. Not limited to Catholicism, certainly -- the point is a broader anti-religious streak.
 
Wonderess:
He implemented the policy because of pressure from others which I shall continue to affectionately call "the privileged few." It is the process that is the issue not the policy itself. I understand not wanting the show under the NBS banner, but it is the complete censoring and blocking of non NS media that I am opposing.
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I’m sure the Delegate read and listened to everyone’s concerns before reaching a decision. Darcania and I have the right to be heard and to share our opinion just as much as you do. Nobody can force El Fiji to do anything, he is his own man.
 
Fiji is a statesman and Delegate. He is free to make any decision he sees as best for the region. As a politician he must still balance his own views the the view of the people which I understand. It is truly the opposed that I am wishing to address and not Fiji who I have the utmost respect for.
 
Wonderess:
Fiji is a statesman and Delegate. He is free to make any decision he sees as best for the region. As a politician he must still balance his own views the the view of the people which I understand. It is truly the opposed that I am wishing to address and not Fiji who I have the utmost respect for.
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Cool. Point of order though, the Delegate takes responsibility for his policy decisions. So even if you wish to cast blame at the feet of the so-called privileged few who you say applied pressure, the Delegate still made his decision and owns it.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Cool. Point of order though, the Delegate takes responsibility for his policy decisions. So even if you wish to cast blame at the feet of the so-called privileged few who you say applied pressure, the Delegate still made his decision and owns it.
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It's a societal problem at its core. I hope my efforts rectify that.
 
I see that my previous attempts to make amends and seek mutual understanding have failed spectacularly. It is not religion that I hate (I have my own faith, as I have told you before, though I keep it private), nor is it Catholicism (I get along fine with most out-and-out Catholics and commonly enjoy discussing ethics and the basics of theology with them). I hate you, for reasons I laid out when last we had reasonable discussions, rather than public condemnations. It's as simple as that.

And as I made clear in my conversations in the NBS staffing channel, I do not care what the actual content of private, RL-based media is. I simply do not believe that any private, RL-based media belongs in NBS, as I've been in the NBS since its inception and I stick to what its original idea was. I've generally disagreed with the direction the NBS has gone for a while (I refused to participate in the NBS portion of the WA Symposium, for example), but this instance is what caused me to speak up regarding my opinions on NBS.

Did I, perhaps, approach it with a bit more fervor than usual? Yes, absolutely, because I hate you. You. For reasons I literally wrote an essay to you about to attempt to try to get you to understand why I hated you. An essay I wrote in private, for the record, and that remains private.

As for the "privileged few" comment... people vastly overestimate my influence. I don't dictate how the government runs and use my pupper (I was originally going to write "puppet" there but the pun was too much to pass up on) Delegate to cleanse the region of all religion. And if I were, @Prydania had best watch out... there is only one fluffy Lord, and it is not the deer. I objected to how NBS was being handled, pointed out my objections to those in charge, and after discussing the matter the Delegate made his own decision on the matter. I won't say I have no influence in the region, but have you considered that perhaps my points are well-founded and based on actual concerns rather than a mouth-frothing lunatic raging about how the sun people are out to destroy us all?
 
Darcania:
I see that my previous attempts to make amends and seek mutual understanding have failed spectacularly. It is not religion that I hate (I have my own faith, as I have told you before, though I keep it private), nor is it Catholicism (I get along fine with most out-and-out Catholics and commonly enjoy discussing ethics and the basics of theology with them). I hate you, for reasons I laid out when last we had reasonable discussions, rather than public condemnations. It's as simple as that.

And as I made clear in my conversations in the NBS staffing channel, I do not care what the actual content of private, RL-based media is. I simply do not believe that any private, RL-based media belongs in NBS, as I've been in the NBS since its inception and I stick to what its original idea was. I've generally disagreed with the direction the NBS has gone for a while (I refused to participate in the NBS portion of the WA Symposium, for example), but this instance is what caused me to speak up regarding my opinions on NBS.

Did I, perhaps, approach it with a bit more fervor than usual? Yes, absolutely, because I hate you. You. For reasons I literally wrote an essay to you about to attempt to try to get you to understand why I hated you. An essay I wrote in private, for the record, and that remains private.

As for the "privileged few" comment... people vastly overestimate my influence. I don't dictate how the government runs and use my pupper (I was originally going to write "puppet" there but the pun was too much to pass up on) Delegate to cleanse the region of all religion. And if I were, @Prydania had best watch out... there is only one fluffy Lord, and it is not the deer. I objected to how NBS was being handled, pointed out my objections to those in charge, and after discussing the matter the Delegate made his own decision on the matter. I won't say I have no influence in the region, but have you considered that perhaps my points are well-founded and based on actual concerns rather than a mouth-frothing lunatic raging about how the sun people are out to destroy us all?
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Your candor and directness are always welcome and appreciated, Darcania.
 
My extremely sarcastic comment earlier aside, I think this discussion ought to take a turn in direction, else I can see this ending up with someone flaming out of the region in the end. Wonderess, I think you need to realize that this region has a large amount of people who are irreligious, and also a large amount of people who have been personally done wrong by Catholicism. Because of that, there are a lot of jokes that go around about it, especially when someone is such an evangelist about it. Everyone else here has their own beliefs, etc. but we don't make it the focus of much of our time here. These facts are probably something that you should learn to accept as you grow in your membership here. I genuinely think most of the time you are just as much of a full member of the community as anyone else, and there are positive discussions that occur. I don't really care to comment on the actions taken by the delegate here from a legal perspective, but I can at least see why he would want to prevent shows about strictly RL topics from snowballing out of control. Not saying that's necessarily what happened here, because I wasn't there, but what happened during this incident and the reaction to it has clearly shown what could potentially happen in more extreme cases in the future.
 
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I think calling the opinions of a few individuals a plague on the region is a stretch. Many simply do not care or have no desire to engage in religion or religious discussions. I for one am of that group. RL Religion is a private matter for me and in my opinion has not place in a game. IC religion would be a different matter, but I digress. Many don't care about religion, many don't care to discuss it, and many simply don't want to engage religion.
 
Artemis:
I think calling the opinions of a few individuals a plague on the region is a stretch. Many simply do not care or have no desire to engage in religion or religious discussions. I for one am of that group. RL Religion is a private matter for me and in my opinion has not place in a game. IC religion would be a different matter, but I digress. Many don't care about religion, many don't care to discuss it, and many simply don't want to engage religion.
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And yet there are some that wish to discuss it, Artemis. The show was in no way about converting people, and I even said that explicitly in the show. I don't mind it not being a government broadcast, but I think it is right and just to have some place that it can be published in the region, and I think the University is that place.
 
Wonderess:
The Declaration of a Citizen in Opposition to the Anti-Religious Sentiments that Plague the Region
​
There comes a time in the history of any citizen when a region fails him and makes him despair for its state. I am sorry to state before my fellow friends and citizens that this day has come. It was with great joy that I collaborated with the Ministry of Communications to produce the first episode of my Catholic radio show: The Theologate of Papists. The audience was joining the live broadcast as at the same time rude and insensitive comments were made jeering and devaluing my love and my efforts. The hour that followed of discussion and question was a joy for me, and I honestly felt that those that were a part of it enjoyed it as well even if they were not Catholic or did not fully understand everything being discussed. It was respectful and informative for myself as well as everyone who took part.

It was not long after that my happiness and joy of my accomplishment was stifled by the naysaying of those who did not even bother to be a part of the broadcast, but still attacked it from afar making their own conclusions and judgements regardless of being informed of the occasion. If there is one thing I have learned through this ordeal, my fellow citizens, is how easy it is for the lamentations of the few to ruin something for the whole by their own unwillingness and aversions.
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I am glad that everyone that chose to participate had a good time. And in regards to the lamentations of a few ruining something... welcome to politics?

Wonderess:
Their protests gained for them their desired reward. Effectively the Delegate has had no choice but to narrow the publications under the Ministry of Communications to regional and NationStates related subjects. The expression and mutual deliberation of ideas through the medium of broadcast has been stifled. My joy and my voice has been silenced because of mere sentiment, and I shall not back down from this harsh reality.
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This is a forum for a political simulation game. Limiting official, governmental communication channels to be about NS related topics seems entirely appropriate. I do think, as you said later, having something under the auspices of TNPU seems to fit the most.

Wonderess:
This region suffers greatly from an anti-theist streak where the expression of faith is seen as too burdensome, too limiting, too judgmental to be valid, and so it is silenced or demeaned at every possible chance. This is accomplished not by the great majority of The North Pacific's people, but by that same few who ruin it for everyone.
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To be clear, I object to the repeated insistence of discussion of said faith on a POLITICAL simulation game. This is not a religious focused region. It is a feeder. I don't want to discuss your faith, my faith, or even Flemingovianism tbh. :P

Wonderess:
I ask you my dear friends to not stand for this. If ideas are wrong or misguided then may respectful discourse be the way to correct them, not rude comments, or irreverent jokes. I tell you that TNP is much better than that and deserves better as well. DO NOT SETTLE, do not let others steal away your hope and joy in that which you love or cherish for they could never do it if you do not let them.
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Your definition of respectful discourse and others may differ. This is not an academic institution, this is not a bible study group, this is not even a group of friends. It is a group of strangers from all across the world that for some reason have stuck to TNP.

Wonderess:
I wish to fight this movement towards ideological isolation. Intolerance is where this isolation starts. When one is unwilling to listen to the other side, then they are choosing to block themselves off from new knowledge and insight that can aid in the refinement of belief in knowledge. If we are all cornered off then all that is left is stagnation and our own stale and unchallenged viewpoint. I am not just a speaker but also a listener despite how some wish to paint me.
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I have the freedom to *not* listen to you. That is *my* choice. You do NOT have the right to force your speeches on me. And if I do stagnate, then that's my own damn problem.

Wonderess:
If you the reader gather anything from this then let it be this, I, Wonderess, will fight for this right against adversity and the powerful few who wish to obstruct me. I ask that you join me in seeking the expression of ideas freely through writing and broadcast in this region as a community for the community. It is indeed a worthy and good pursuit and so I ask that you stand in solidarity at this time of crisis. I feel nothing but dismay at this reality, but in dismay I can use what strength I have to change it. I ask that you help me to do so.
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*slow clap* the rhetoric is amusing. You coulda thrown in "give me liberty or give me death" though.
 
To clarify, is Wonderess speaking out about how TNPU has banned the publication of non-NS related media on the TNP Youtube channel? I can't quite grasp what exactly his problem is.
 
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Wonderess:
That is correct.
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That makes sense to me for the University to do that. After all, the Youtube channel is under the government of TNP, and as such I think it is best that they only post NS-related media. If the University desires to publish other, non-NS related media, perhaps another Youtube channel can be created? One under the purview of the University?
 
BluieGamer:
That makes sense to me for the University to do that. After all, the Youtube channel is under the government of TNP, and as such I think it is best that they only post NS-related media. If the University desires to publish other, non-NS related media, perhaps another Youtube channel can be created? One under the purview of the University?
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That was an idea I suggested. However, the policy would also restrict broadcasting content to NS material even for the University.
 
St George:
So there's nothing actually stopping Wonderess from doing this separately, he just wants it government endorsed. Odd.
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Seems more like he is being denied the same access to government communications as other citizens based on the content of his speech. Specifically, the government is granting access to the NBS video channels to those in which it agrees with the message (i.e. NS related topics) and denying messages in which it disagrees (i.e. Religious messages in which it self proclaimed is not NS related) The government must either grant access to all or grant access to none and only broadcast government created content on government-controlled channels. The executive has effectively put in place a policy of Prior Restraint. It is a core principle of free speech that it protects speech that is controversial. Historically (not necessarily TNP but overall in the RL world,)those with unpopular opinions often bear the brunt of government repression in speech.

the argument that religious programming has no place in NS a political simulation, is an improper one. As I stated previously, many nations govern under religious principles. @Wonderess can easily open a Nation State that espouses religious dogma and legislation and makes his religion directly related to NS. This policy as written will not stop that. But none the less, it is likely that his speech would still be refused on the NBS system.
 
I concur with @Dreadton's points. Also, RP is not a part of the NationStates simulation game and yet it is allowed a place for discussion and public discourse. It is not the government backed aspect that I am concerned with. If any of the dissenters actually listened to the show (which no one that did has come out publicly against) then there would be no question that the show is about personal viewpoints. I have no idea who would even think that the region actually endorses the points of view of the show. Also, Flemingovianism remains the state religion which shows that religion and government are not so separate as you put on. I simply want a place in this region where we can freely discuss topics and have the infrastructure to do that without undue obstruction. I don't care if it is NBS or not. I just want that freedom as I do in TNPU in text form.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Why is it important to you that your program be broadcast on an official TNP youtube channel? You could hold it on your own youtube channel and post it in the Private Media forum, and/or the real life channel on discord.
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I will go through this again: The deliberative nature of the show includes the input and questions of others as the first version of the broadcast has shown. The public and intellectual discussion of religion of all sorts requires multiple viewpoints. Yalkan, Bootsie, and VanBonanza who were present for the broadcast provided that array of viewpoints and asked questions. I do not care about the government being involved. The problem is that the regional infrastructure is controlled by the government alone which makes it hard to have public discussions of this nature without involving it. It is for this reason that I am working to get these sorts of discussions under TNPU jurisdiction so that they can still be publicly held on TNP ground without the fear of political endorsement being a thing (even though I find this viewpoint overblown.) It is the forum I am concerned with. I was even speaking about inviting Prydania to the show to have a discourse between the Catholic and Jewish traditions. The public should not be disallowed from offering such events within TNP's domain such as a TNP VC channel where people can join of their own free will (which some did.) I am looking for this freedom, this option and nothing more.
 
I really wonder if there would be as much opposition if this was a Buddist program done by another nation.


*edit Grammer is hard
 
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I think a lot of people are getting caught up in the personalities and particular topics involved in this, and losing sight of the central question: whether non-NS content should be allowed in government media, and if so what restrictions should be placed on it. I don't think it makes sense to have different restrictions on audio vs text publications - that's a bit of an arbitrary distinction. So I think it makes sense for the Ministry of Communications to restrict all their media to NS topics, since their responsibility is to provide a communication link between the government and the rest of the region. However, TNPU exists for the broader purpose of public education, so it stands to reason that their content should not be similarly restricted. So non-NS topics should be allowed on TNPU platforms, be they text, audio, or what have you.

I'm not sure anyone's put up a sound argument against this, but I'll admit I've only been skimming the debate, since most of it is riddled with personal conflicts and other boring non-arguments.
 
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Crushing Our Enemies:
I think a lot of people are getting caught up in the personalities and particular topics involved in this, and losing sight of the central question: whether non-NS content should be allowed in government media, and if so what restrictions should be placed on it. I don't think it makes sense to have different restrictions on audio vs text publications - that's a bit of an arbitrary distinction. So I think it makes sense for the Ministry of Communications to restrict all their media to NS topics, since their responsibility is to provide a communication link between the government and the rest of the region. However, TNPU exists for the broader purpose of public education, so it stands to reason that their content should not be similarly restricted. So non-NS topics should be allowed on TNPU platforms, be they text, audio, or what have you.

I'm not sure anyone's put up a sound argument against this, but I'll admit I've only been skimming the debate, since most of it is riddled with personal conflicts and other boring non-arguments.
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The current policy will limit TNPU from posting non NS related content in broadcast form as well. As I have said this is what is being opposed.
 
So, to be clear, Wonderess, you are not protesting your program's removal from the NBS platform? Only the restriction on broadcasting through TNPU?

If so, that certainly seems reasonable and I'd be interested to see what Fiji has to say about it.
 
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As the Chancellor of TNP University I concur with COE's comments.

Wonderess - you are welcome, as always, to post text, audio or images in the University.
The University exists for the education and the sharing of knowledge for the benefit of the Nations of the Region.
I hope you continue to do so.
 
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Marcus Antonius:
As the Chancellor of TNP University I concur with COE's comments.

Wonderess - you are welcome, as always, to post text, audio or images in the University.
The University exists for the education and the sharing of knowledge for the benefit of the Nations of the Region.
I hope you continue to do so.
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Thank you Marcus, but the Delegate currently does not allow non NS content to be broadcasted by the University. That significantly hampers the ability for the people of this region who wish to do so to have conversations on various intellectual topics. That is not a stance I can endorse.
 
From my understanding of the policy is that TNPU can still be used for non-NS related material. The policy is that it won't be broadcasted on the private media account (NBS/Private Media Channel). Discussions can still be had in TNPU.

@El Fiji Grande I would recommend posting this policy publicly outside of the NBS channel and clarify what is and isn't allowed to be posted and where.
 
Artemis:
From my understanding of the policy is that TNPU can still be used for non-NS related material. The policy is that it won't be broadcasted on the private media account (NBS/Private Media Channel). Discussions can still be had in TNPU.

@El Fiji Grande I would recommend posting this policy publicly outside of the NBS channel and clarify what is and isn't allowed to be posted and where.
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It makes no sense to allow non NS subjects in the University but bar the University from broadcasting non NS content. It is inconsistent and overkill from where I stand.
 
I think the matter is confused by the fact that there are currently only two official TNP youtube channels, and both are affiliated with the NBS - one for NS content, and one for "private media" which can be anything.

It is unclear whether this policy would apply to a new youtube channel created exclusively for TNPU content, with content promoted by the government, because at the time the policy was created, and up to the present, such a channel does not exist.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
I think the matter is confused by the fact that there are currently only two official TNP youtube channels, and both are affiliated with the NBS - one for NS content, and one for "private media" which can be anything.

It is unclear whether this policy would apply to a new youtube channel created exclusively for TNPU content, with content promoted by the government, because at the time the policy was created, and up to the present, such a channel does not exist.
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That was discussed and from my understanding a TNPU channel would be under the same policy. You can ask the Delegate for clarification.
 
Dreadton:
the argument that religious programming has no place in NS a political simulation, is an improper one. As I stated previously, many nations govern under religious principles. @Wonderess can easily open a Nation State that espouses religious dogma and legislation and makes his religion directly related to NS. This policy as written will not stop that. But none the less, it is likely that his speech would still be refused on the NBS system.
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If the discussions in question were truly about religion in NS, for example how religious views affects decisions on issues, or a discussion of how an RP will evolve that concerns religious issues, then that is NS related. But my understanding of the broadcast in question is that it was directly connected to real life religion with no allusion to NationStates.

The TNPU issue seems like it could lead to a reasonable resolution, where non-NS content can be put on a third (to be created) channel. But constraining "official regional" platforms to NS only content seems perfectly fine to me.
 
The University, as I understand it, falls under Culture. As Minister of Culture? I am happy that the University will continue to be open to non-NS topics.

The NBS falls under Communications, however. And the Delegate and Minister of Communications are allowed, as far as I know, to dictate what sort of content that Ministry puts out.
 
Prydania:
The University, as I understand it, falls under Culture. As Minister of Culture? I am happy that the University will continue to be open to non-NS topics.

The NBS falls under Communications, however. And the Delegate and Minister of Communications are allowed, as far as I know, to dictate what sort of content that Ministry puts out.
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Yes, but the declaration as currently articulated effects all areas of government including TNPU and Culture. This has been what I am trying to oppose, the blanket ban of non NS content in broadcast form across the board.
 
I find it funny that people keep saying lets see what Fiji says about this HYPOTHETICAL situation. But just keep weaving the HYPOTHETICAL application of a policy on something that doesn't exist. Maybe actually let Fiji explain what the policy will be instead of what I can only assume is divining what Fiji's response will be by the position of the stars or whatever.

Stop saying it is ACROSS THE BOARD. When Fiji has not actually clarified that it WILL be.

Lets save the outrage and the pitchforks until after an actual reason for them appears, maybe?

Also, fun fact using bold to highlight the importance of a few words is a fun way to make an assertion and distract people from the fact its made without any evidence.
 
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Lord Lore:
I find it funny that people keep saying lets see what Fiji says about this HYPOTHETICAL situation. But just keep weaving the HYPOTHETICAL application of a policy on something that doesn't exist. Maybe actually let Fiji explain what the policy will be instead of what I can only assume is divining what Fiji's response will be by the position of the stars or whatever.

Stop saying it is ACROSS THE BOARD. When Fiji has not actually clarified that it WILL be.

Lets save the outrage and the pitchforks until after an actual reason for them appears, maybe?

Also, fun fact using bold to highlight the importance of a few words is a fun way to make an assertion and distract people from the fact its made without any evidence.
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I am not uninformed, Lore. Look at Fiji's post in this very thread and you will see. I seem to be addressing the same things over and over.
 
To quote the Delegate:

Any show posted on TNP youtube platforms **must** be NS-related. Furthermore, the NBS youtube channel will be split up. All official NBS shows will remain on the NBS Channel, and any NS-related private media sources will be posted on a new, specifically private media channel. Only the official NBS channel will be actively promoted, but the private media channel will continue to be maintained. Not necessarily all media posted on the official NBS will represent government opinions, but they will be government run shows. Any citizen that seeks to publish non-NS related material is free to do so on their own youtube channel, but that sort of content will not be contained either within the official NBS or Private Media channels. For clarity: TNP University will be allowed to publish through private media, but only specifically NS-related content will be posted on the private media account.
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