Election Commissioner Appointments

[abc]

The delegate has appointed two citizens to the Election Commission. Per the Legal Code, Chapter 4 Clause 11, these appointments are subject to RA confirmation. The confirmation will follow non-legislative procedures. Here are the appointments:

I hereby appoint COE and Siwale as Election Commissioners, subject to confirmation votes by the Regional Assembly.

These appointments may be debated in this topic. Once a motion to vote is seconded, a vote may be scheduled.

 

[Oracle]

I would like to ask a question for some of the more legal minded people. Is the delegate able to appoint themselves as Election Commissioner?

 

[Deropia]

I would like to ask a question for some of the more legal minded people. Is the delegate able to appoint themselves as Election Commissioner?

Well, there is nothing in the Legal Code that expressly prohibits it.

Any citizen may be appointed to the Election Commission. Citizens will be exempt from constitutional restrictions on holding multiple government offices for purposes of their appointment to the Election Commission.

 

[Oracle]

Works with me

 

[Wonderess]

Does this mean that Siwale could play a part in vote validations in an election that he is a candidate in?

 

[Oracle]

Iirc, EC cannot supervise an election in which they are a candidate of. So I imagine that he couldn’t not participate in the validation of votes.

 

[Deropia]

Quite right Artemis, an Election Commissioner is considered to be absent from the position for elections that they are candidates in. This is stipulated by Section 4.3 § 15.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

As always, I'm available to answer questions if anyone has any for me. However, given that Siwale and I have both been confirmed by the Regional Assembly for this position twice before within the last year, I don't anticipate any need for delay in proceeding to a vote.

 

[Isimud]

I have to disagree, COE.

I do not like the idea of a sitting Delegate appointing themselves to the EC, regardless of legality and protections.

Potential undue influence is a needful consideration here, regardless of trustiworthiness of the Delegate (whomever that may be) and the EC itself.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Well, I'd remind you that the assembly knew Siwale was on the EC when they elected him delegate(having originally been appointed by Pallaith last summer) and there are institutional safeguards in place to prevent undue influence. One that's already been mentioned is that candidates in any election who are also election commissioners are considered absent from the commission during the election.

Also, until the creation of the EC as a standing body about a year ago, the delegate would automatically serve as the election commissioner for all special elections, so clearly there was no issue with undue influence over the election process then.

What are your specific concerns with the delegate serving on the EC?

 

[Dinoium]

I would argue..

1. The delegate may reappoint an Election Commissioner who is already on the commission, following the same procedures as all other appointments to the Election Commission. A new six month term will begin from the date a reappointed and reconfirmed Election Commissioner takes their oath of office.
2. When temporary Election Commissioners are needed, the non-absent commissioners will come to a consensus regarding who to appoint. If no consensus can be reached, the Chief Election Commissioner will create a list of all suggested appointees, and hold a vote in which each Election Commissioner may vote for as many or as few as they wish. Those with the most votes will be appointed.

Now Siwale and COE are already part of, and if i'm correct, COE will become new Chief EC in a vote, Siwale, the Delegate, can re-appoint him and COE but to be clear, Siwale can't moderate the next election in September then because

A) He is currently Delegate of The North Pacific, and if he chooses to run for a 2nd term, this would be corruption, now as we can trust him as EC, we never know, thus we must not nominate him then if he runs for a 2nd term.
B)

3. During candidacy declarations, Election Supervisors are obligated to include a list of declared candidates in the opening post of the thread for candidacy declarations. They are encouraged, but not required, to include lists of those who have been nominated, those who have declined nominations, and those who were nominated, but not eligible to run. In some circumstances, such as when all citizens have been nominated for office, it would be appropriate to omit such lists, or put them inside spoiler tags.

In that matter, I would not support such an appointment but for COE, as long as he doesn't run, I would support, we'll just have to see..

 

[Deropia]

I have to agree with COE. There are safeguards in place to prevent a candidate from unduly affecting the outcome of an election. Seeing as how COE and Siwale are both standing ECs already confirmed once by this assembly, I motion to vote.

 

[Oracle]

I second the motion

 

[Siwale]

Just wanted to say a few things about these appointments:

1. Another batch of Election Commissioner appointments will be coming in early June. I have chosen to reappoint COE and myself ahead of time to help stagger Election Commissioner terms. The EC is really designed to not have everyone's term end at the same time.

2. Yes, I reappointed myself. This is not a new position for me. I have served as an election commissioner for nearly a year now (even longer than that if you count the March 2017 Judicial Elections) and I hope to continue to serve TNP in this capacity. Everything else that I was going to cover has pretty much been laid out above, but I am happy to answer any additional questions that the RA has for me

 

[Isimud]

Well, I'd remind you that the assembly knew Siwale was on the EC when they elected him delegate (having originally been appointed by Pallaith last summer) and there are institutional safeguards in place to prevent undue influence. One that's already been mentioned is that candidates in any election who are also election commissioners are considered absent from the commission during the election.

You seem to be making the assumption that what the RA knew, in general, included me in the specific sense. It did not. I have been, most recently, in the RA for approximately 2 months.
Until you (and Siwale in a later post) pointed it out I was not aware that Siwale was currently a member of the EC. And while Siwale mentioned that they had been an EC in their election platform, they did not specify that they were currently an EC. Nor did they specify that they were reappointing both themself, and you as well, to the EC:

I hereby appoint COE and Siwale as Election Commissioners, subject to confirmation votes by the Regional Assembly.

Emphasis mine.

I'll also remind you that I'm under no obligation whatsoever to agree with the choices the RA makes, as a legislative body, though I am obliged to abide by its consensus.

Presumably, these are the safeguards that you're referring to:

Section 4.3: The Election Commission
13. <snip>The Delegate does not have the power to remove an Election Commissioner.
<snip>
15. An Election Commissioner will be considered absent during any election in which they are a candidate, or during which their term started or is scheduled to end. Absent Election Commissioners may not supervise an election or participate in any decisions made by the Election Commission as a whole.

and

Section Two: Election Supervisors
4. During any election, the Election Supervisors will have sole access to the account designated to supervise that election. At the end of the election, sole access will be returned to the Chief Election Commissioner.

Also, until the creation of the EC as a standing body about a year ago, the delegate would automatically serve as the election commissioner for all special elections, so clearly there was no issue with undue influence over the election process then.

I was only recently made of aware of this, though I may well have known at one time. If so, then, at that time, I had no reservations about the matter. I do have them now, as I've made clear.

What are your specific concerns with the delegate serving on the EC?

I have no specific concerns, as such, but do have some general ones and among them are some of the issues raised by McMasterdonia's recent proposal regarding election corruption, namely:

What is CORRUPTION?
<snip>The act of an official or fiduciary person who unlawfully and wrongfully uses his station or character to procure some benefit for himself or for another person, contrary to duty and the rights of others.<snip>

and the following, as well:

What is UNDUE INFLUENCE?
<snip a bunch of verbiage> Undue influence consists (1) in the use, by one in whom a confidence is reposed by another, or who holds a real or apparent authority over him, of such confidence or au- thority, for the purpose of obtaining an unfair advantage over him<snip>

an alternate definition:

Undue Influence
<snip>Virtually any act of persuasion that over-comes the free will and judgment of another, including exhortations, importunings, insinuations, flattery, trickery, and deception, may amount to undue influence.

and

What is IMPROPER INFLUENCE?
This means to bring undue pressure upon a person to try to get them to do something that they wouldn't normally do.

To reiterate, my primary concern here is that a sitting Delegate may (re)appoint themselves to the EC. Regardless of the legality of the matter, the safeguards currently in place, and what I once may have found acceptable, it is my currently held position that a sitting Delegate should not be (re)appointing themself to the EC, nor should they be on the EC at all. It is, in my opinion, simply wrong for them to do so. Simply because one has the authority to do something, does not, necessarily, mean that one should exercise it. The possibility of potential abuse is simply too great.

Being a Delegate is no surety that they will not turn against the region, for whatever reason and using whatever means, despite safeguards.

I am fully aware that I have legal avenues of change available to me.
However, that does me no good whatsoever right now. Despite my reservations, this has already been motioned to a vote well under 24 hours after it was put up for discussion.
I seem to recall this sort of thing happening any number of times in the past, though I've never before been on the receiving end of it. C'est la vie, I suppose.

 

[SillyString]

I've read your post, but I'm honestly not clear on what you're concerned will happen.

The business of the EC is conducted with extreme transparency. Even if an election supervisor wanted to tamper with an election, they'd have a pretty hard time doing so.

Can you lay out a path you are concerned might be taken using corruption or undue/improper influence? The delegate might do X causing Y, or they might say A to B causing B to do C?

 

[Eluvatar]

I think the actual argument that has something to it here is that the Delegate should not be sitting on the EC. (So an EC member who is elected Delegate should step down).

This is not part of our laws, nor procedures.

It is worth debating, but possibly not in this topic.

 

[Oracle]

I agree Elu, it would be an interesting topic

I have to agree with COE. There are safeguards in place to prevent a candidate from unduly affecting the outcome of an election. Seeing as how COE and Siwale are both standing ECs already confirmed once by this assembly, I motion to vote.

I second the motion

 

[abc]

A vote has been scheduled to take place in two days.

 

[Isimud]

I've read your post, but I'm honestly not clear on what you're concerned will happen.

The business of the EC is conducted with extreme transparency. Even if an election supervisor wanted to tamper with an election, they'd have a pretty hard time doing so.

Can you lay out a path you are concerned might be taken using corruption or undue/improper influence? The delegate might do X causing Y, or they might say A to B causing B to do C?

As you addressed some concerns that I had raised in the Election Corruption Amendment thread
(http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/9148509/1/) you explained some of the EC's internal precedures and made clear the difficulty of the EC manipulating the outcome of a vote.

However, you also had this to say:

A determined set of Election Supervisors could invent new ballots and assign them ID numbers, and unless someone's suspicions were raised causing them to question the legitimacy of those ballots, there's no explicit safeguard that would prevent that from happening at the time of an election. However, all private votes are retained, archived, in folders for the election in which they were cast. Any future supervising EC has the ability to go back and verify the results of a prior election, and any missing ballot would be cause for a thorough investigation.

Even with 2 corrupt Supervisors, it would be difficult to change the course of an election. Even then, to keep from being too obvious about it, and thus raise suspicions of tampering, they could probably only do so if it was a close run race.

To continue:

11. The Election Commission consists of at least five, but no more than nine citizens appointed by the Delegate and confirmed by a majority vote of the Regional Assembly.
12. Any citizen may be appointed to the Election Commission. Citizens will be exempt from constitutional restrictions on holding multiple government offices for purposes of their appointment to the Election Commission.
<snip>
14. All elections will be supervised by two Election Commissioners.
<snip>
16. If there are fewer than five non-absent Election Commissioners, the remaining commissioners will appoint temporary replacements to bring their number up to five. If all Election Commissioners are absent, the delegate will appoint five temporary replacements. These
replacements will serve until the number of non-absent commissioners is five or greater.
17. The Election Commission will have the power to make rules for the supervision of elections. Where no rules exist, the Election Commissioners supervising a given election may use their discretion.
18. Any citizen may petition the full Election Commission to review a decision made by the Election Commissioners supervising a given election. If necessary, the election may be halted while the Election Commission decides how to proceed.
19. If the full Election Commission determines that the actions under review are not in compliance with the law or their adopted rules, they will have the power, by majority vote, to overrule them. If deemed necessary, they will also have the power, by majority vote, to restart the election, or designate different commissioners to supervise the election.

Currently the EC has, or will soon have, 7 members, yes?

I'll use the following people, whom I have no personal reason to distrust (nor especially trust, truth be told), as examples.

Siwale is reappointing 2 of them, subject to confirmation. Siwale recently appointed 2 others and both were confirmed. One of whom is now a Minister as well. That's 4 of 7. A majority, sufficient to choose the Chief, should the spot become vacant. Sufficient to utterly destroy the EC as an organization should it become necessary. Apparent miscounts, not just once, but again and again.
Doubts and aspersions cast. I could go on.

Doubtful? Yes, possibly even very much so. Still, it is possible.

As to Delegates and potential corruption, I'll refer you back to your own analysis:
http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=10137627&t=9148509

I think the actual argument that has something to it here is that the Delegate should not be sitting on the EC. (So an EC member who is elected Delegate should step down).

This is not part of our laws, nor procedures.

Yes.

It is worth debating, but possibly not in this topic.

I do consider it worth debating in this thread and that was also the reason I was bemoaning the rapidity of the motions to begin the confirmation process.

The other point of my posting here is to possibly get Siwale reconsider their self-reappointment. I don't believe that to be terribly likely as I'm the only one bringing it up and that was why I now consider it a secondary priority rather than the first.

And I gotta go and don't have time right now to vet this, so feel free to tear it up.

 

[Siwale]

Currently the EC has, or will soon have, 7 members, yes?

I'll use the following people, whom I have no personal reason to distrust (nor especially trust, truth be told), as examples.

Siwale is reappointing 2 of them, subject to confirmation. Siwale recently appointed 2 others and both were confirmed. One of whom is now a Minister as well. That's 4 of 7. A majority, sufficient to choose the Chief, should the spot become vacant. Sufficient to utterly destroy the EC as an organization should it become necessary. Apparent miscounts, not just once, but again and again.
Doubts and aspersions cast. I could go on.

Just wanted to clarify that there are currently 5 ECers and after these reappointments there will still be 5.

Also, the 2 other ECers recently appointed were by Gladio, not me.

 

[Isimud]

Sigh.

None of what I said was an intentional dig at you, Siwale. I was simply trying to correct COE's apparent misapprehensions about the depth of my ignorance. But you're correct in that I likely did so in unnecessary detail.

Thank you for the clarification, regardless.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

So the fear then seems to be that up to four other people will conspire with the delegate to be appointed to the EC and rig elections. Color me doubtful, and also I'd like to point out that such a possibility is not mitigated by denying the delegate a spot on the EC. Whether on the EC or not, he still makes all the appointments.

 

[SillyString]

Yeah, that's where I'm getting stuck too.

EC corruption is possible, but I don't see the delegate's presence as making it more possible, or more likely. Non-delegate ECs are just as able to invent false votes, and the delegate can stack the commission with corrupt individuals without putting themselves on it.

 

[Wonderess]

Regardless of whether the Delegate would abuse his power or not, I believe it is an incorrect move to appoint the executive of the region to the Election commission on principle. I am sure there are other competent candidates that could feel the slot without the assembly having to place an already busy Delegate on the commission even if he has already been on it. The Delegate's job is the Delegate's job. Let's allow another person eager to serve the region to be given a chance.

 

[Isimud]

So the fear then seems to be that up to four other people will conspire with the delegate to be appointed to the EC and rig elections. Color me doubtful, and also I'd like to point out that such a possibility is not mitigated by denying the delegate a spot on the EC. Whether on the EC or not, he still makes all the appointments.

Yeah, that's where I'm getting stuck too.

EC corruption is possible, but I don't see the delegate's presence as making it more possible, or more likely. Non-delegate ECs are just as able to invent false votes, and the delegate can stack the commission with corrupt individuals without putting themselves on it.

You're both quite right. I'm mainly talking about relative (im)probabilities. It seems quite unlikely, to me, that a corrupt Delegate would have sufficient influence/support, from likewise corrupt individuals, to do more than stack the deck in their favor. In which case appointing themselves to the EC would be a useful capability.

This leaves aside the improbability of a sufficiently bent Delegate both willing and able to do such a thing in the first place. But we have had such Delegates in the past. I believe Lewis & Clark/Westwind was one such and, while I wasn't present during the Jal/Durk I/Durk II business, I think that he was mostly interested in just going out with a bang and taking TNP with him. There may well be others I'm unaware of or forgetting.

 

[Just a Lore]

I'm not saying that I think it could ever be used to influence elections or etc. I am simply not jazzed about the precedent of a sitting delegate nominating themselves for the EC.

Taking it to its logical most extreme you could end up with an EC stacked with exclusively Former Delegates and the Sitting Delegate. Which is not something I would love to see personally. I'm not even saying that it is a likely path that this will lead but a precedent being set that will allow for that is something that doesn't exactly get my excited for the future of the body.

 

[Isimud]

I am in complete agreement about your concerns with even setting the precedent.

But it now seems to be virtually unavoidable. There's simply not enough audible support or time.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

I still don't really see how being on the EC increases the delegate's opportunity to be corrupt... could you be more explicit on that point?

 

[Pallaith]

I'm not saying that I think it could ever be used to influence elections or etc. I am simply not jazzed about the precedent of a sitting delegate nominating themselves for the EC.

Taking it to its logical most extreme you could end up with an EC stacked with exclusively Former Delegates and the Sitting Delegate. Which is not something I would love to see personally. I'm not even saying that it is a likely path that this will lead but a precedent being set that will allow for that is something that doesn't exactly get my excited for the future of the body.

So because I was delegate I can’t serve on the EC? And how does the delegate appointing himself mean former delegates will make up all the other spots? That’s a bit of a leap.

It’s fine if you don’t like this idea in general, but let’s be clear. You guys think it’s poor form and don’t like the idea, there really isn’t much substantive to the concern aside from personal preference and appeal to appearances. You’re entitled to feel that way, but if other people don’t share that particular feeling, you have offered nothing compelling or convincing to justify your dislike of this particular type of appointment.

 

[Wonderess]

I'm not saying that I think it could ever be used to influence elections or etc. I am simply not jazzed about the precedent of a sitting delegate nominating themselves for the EC.

Taking it to its logical most extreme you could end up with an EC stacked with exclusively Former Delegates and the Sitting Delegate. Which is not something I would love to see personally. I'm not even saying that it is a likely path that this will lead but a precedent being set that will allow for that is something that doesn't exactly get my excited for the future of the body.

So because I was delegate I can’t serve on the EC? And how does the delegate appointing himself mean former delegates will make up all the other spots? That’s a bit of a leap.

It’s fine if you don’t like this idea in general, but let’s be clear. You guys think it’s poor form and don’t like the idea, there really isn’t much substantive to the concern aside from personal preference and appeal to appearances. You’re entitled to feel that way, but if other people don’t share that particular feeling, you have offered nothing compelling or convincing to justify your dislike of this particular type of appointment.

I just think it is unnecessary to have a sitting Delegate be given this position when there are other possible candidates. Why not get someone new to join the commission instead of having to appoint someone who is already stooped in responsibilities for the region? I would like to see someone not on the government page placed in this position. That way we can involve new people in the region's governance.

 

[Siwale]

I just think it is unnecessary to have a sitting Delegate be given this position when there are other possible candidates. Why not get someone new to join the commission instead of having to appoint someone who is already stooped in responsibilities for the region? I would like to see someone not on the government page placed in this position. That way we can involve new people in the region's governance.

I agree that the Election Commission is an excellent place for new talent. But I also think there needs to be some experienced Commissioners to help with the learning curve. Once June rolls around, the majority of the commission will be composed of new members (I will be appointing 3 new commissioners, Scorch's term will end, and BMW and Ark are still pretty new). COE and I are the only two remaining members of the original Election Commission and I think our guidance is important during this transition period.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

The delegate is taking applications for open spots on the EC. My understanding is that he plans to appoint two applicants, but the law allows us to appoint as many as four (or none at all, since we currently satisfy the minimum of five). I share your opinion that we should bring relatively new faces onto the commission. In fact, the idea behind keeping the number around seven is so that if someone qualified is very eager to join, we are able to legally accommodate them.

However, there is also value in having experienced commissioners stay on, so they can guide and train the new folks. Particularly if an incumbent commissioner is doing a good job (as I can attest that Siwale is) and wants to continue, there is no reason to deny then the opportunity to continue.

Edit: Mostly ninja'd by Siwale.

 

[Isimud]

I still don't really see how being on the EC increases the delegate's opportunity to be corrupt... could you be more explicit on that point?

The EC is a voting body. The more corrupt individuals that are appointed to the EC, including the Delegate themself, increases the likelihood of bending the EC to their wishes.

As I mentioned above, I consider it very unlikely that the Delegate could do more than stack the deck in their favor, whether by appointing ministers or appointing EC, but, given the laws in their current form, the same corrupt individuals could serve in both positions. So, for example, if the EC has 5 members, but the Delegate only managed to appoint 2 minions to the EC, then appointing themselves to the EC would produce a majority. Likewise if there were 7 members on the EC, then 3 chosen members+Delegate= majority. Likewise the executive, though that's not a voting body as such.

There are any number of dastardly deeds a majority control of the EC could accomplish. From as simple as appointing the Chair to altering internal procedures to destroying the EC as a trustworthy body entirely.

Even a strong minority of the EC would be of benefit, but would not allow the direct control that a majority would.

The EC has had a high turnover of late. This may prove atypical, but it's too soon to tell with any degree of certainty. If, however, the Delegate has enough lackeys, including themselves, then the greater their chances of taking a majority control of the EC during their time in office.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

I take your point, but I feel like such deception would be difficult to keep secret, and would result in everyone involved being efficiently recalled, as well as anyone who was elected as a direct result of their corrupt interventions. Essentially, I think the rewards of having someone like Siwale on the commission outweigh the risk that we will set precedent making it marginally easier for a future delegate to corrupt the EC, given the remedies that are available to us.

 

[Isimud]

Again, it's just a matter of improbability. Unlikely to remain hidden? Likely true, but still possible. In the case of the EC some noncorrupt member(s) would have to reveal, and prove to a sufficient degree, their allegations in order for a successful recall to take place. Such proof may be difficult to come by, even with screenshots, if the majority simply proposed and voted as a bloc, or, even better, as seemingly independent individuals who only reluctantly come to agree with one another or some other such indirect means of exercising their majority control. And if said proof were simply claims by the minority members? Hearsay.

I have nothing against Siwale personally. I've simply been using them as an example. Likewise I agree that the necessity of having a couple experienced members is a very good idea.

I won't reiterate my primary objection, but, perhaps, instead of appointing themself to the EC an experienced member could be induced to come back.
Eluvatar, I vaguely recall, lost their citizenship and hence the Chair of the EC? SillyString seems to be very knowledgeable about the EC as well. There are likely others that I'm unaware of. Perhaps one such could be induced to come back to serve only as an interim member for the specific purpose of passing on their knowledge or even serve in some form of advisory capacity, as the Delegate has, without actually being required to serve on the EC itself. I'm sure there would be no strenuous objections if a small number of mock elections were run.