Bootsie:
Official Regional Turtle Bill
- Thread starter abc
- Start date
Possibly, although that's a bit too many nations. Only the ones who truly contributed a huge amount to TNP should be recognized. Plus Eluvatar has been around longer than any of the people listed (I think).Bootsie:
Regarding the other questions, I believe they were mostly answered by others.
Mystery Player
TNPer
Both Democratic Donkeys and Former English Colony have been around longer.abc:
That may be true, but this bill is only in regards to Eluvatar. I'd rather not do it for other symbols because whenever a different official animal of TNP joined, people would soon want a bill to add that animal and eventually the list would get too long. I will consider Democratic Donkeys and Former English Colony though.Mystery Player:
- Discord
- COE#7110
I do not support this bill. So far our legal documents have been completely free of name-dropping. While Eluvatar is certainly highly esteemed and a valuable member of the community, he is definitely not a symbol of TNP. The flag, the arms, and the seal are all synonymous with TNP. Adding a "regional turtle" is more like a mascot or a joke - which has no place in our codified law.
I would support a symbolic proposal with no legal effect[note]Such as this bowl of porridge[/note] to honor Eluvatar's testudineous contributions to the region
I would support a symbolic proposal with no legal effect[note]Such as this bowl of porridge[/note] to honor Eluvatar's testudineous contributions to the region
I for one, support this bill.
- TNP Nation
- sil_dorsett
- Discord
- sildorsett
What would happen if Eluvatar were to cease involvement in TNP entirely? Would we continue to recognize them as a regional symbol?
Never!
- TNP Nation
- sil_dorsett
- Discord
- sildorsett
If that's the case, the law should recognize the "Eluvatarian Turtle" as the symbol, and not Eluvatar (the player).abc:
Elu's contribution to the region cannot be denied - but nor can the contribution of many many others. I am uneasy about things like this that honour one individual above others. I had the same unease when sections of this forum were named after players like Hersfold, Thel D'ran, Tressville etc.
Now some may say this is hypocritical - I have a religion in the contstitution named after me. But when I started Flemingovianism i had no idea that it would take off as it has. If I had known that it would one day have a presence in a number of regions and be mentioned in our laws, I would have picked a different name.
Hindsight is always 20:20.
Now some may say this is hypocritical - I have a religion in the contstitution named after me. But when I started Flemingovianism i had no idea that it would take off as it has. If I had known that it would one day have a presence in a number of regions and be mentioned in our laws, I would have picked a different name.
Hindsight is always 20:20.
- TNP Nation
- Zyvetskistaahn
- Discord
- zyvet.
This Bill has dramatically expanded in scope, from a proposal dealing specifically with the Eluturtle to one generally dealing with regional animals, with less than a day left in formal debate. It is no proper way to approach such critical legislation and so I object to the decision to schedule a vote on this proposal.
Well done, zyvet. I was about to post the same.
- TNP Nation
- sil_dorsett
- Discord
- sildorsett
It takes three to stop a scheduled vote. I object to the decision to schedule the vote as well. Each change needs to be discussed in more detail, and also we need to keep a record of what each of the drafts looked like. abc, when updating a draft, it's a good idea to spoiler the previous draft so we can look back at the progression. Also, once formal debate has ended, you can't update the draft any further unless discussion is reopened.
Too late. He has done it. This makes the proposal now illegal. Good luck to the speakers sorting this one out.
Ps if the speakers order, admins can see the final legal version of this bill and revert to that text.
Ps if the speakers order, admins can see the final legal version of this bill and revert to that text.
There being three objections to the decision to schedule a vote, the scheduled vote is cancelled.
If members wish to move the proposal to vote, they may do so by means of a motion for an immediate vote, which will require the support of seven members (including the proposer, abc). I will also note that if this action is taken, the proposal will be the last legal version abc posted, not the version he attempted to edit after formal debate closed. If abc wishes to further edit this proposal, he will need to motion for a new vote and start a new formal debate period.
If members wish to move the proposal to vote, they may do so by means of a motion for an immediate vote, which will require the support of seven members (including the proposer, abc). I will also note that if this action is taken, the proposal will be the last legal version abc posted, not the version he attempted to edit after formal debate closed. If abc wishes to further edit this proposal, he will need to motion for a new vote and start a new formal debate period.
Hang on. I see the bill has now reverted to the original form?
My objection was based on the last minute edit. I now have to reason to object.
If the proposer of the bill is allowed to make last minute substantive changes to the bill, then change back the minute the vite is cancelled we have a delaying tool more effective than the Fillibuster bill.
I withdraw my objection to vote.
My objection was based on the last minute edit. I now have to reason to object.
If the proposer of the bill is allowed to make last minute substantive changes to the bill, then change back the minute the vite is cancelled we have a delaying tool more effective than the Fillibuster bill.
I withdraw my objection to vote.
In case it's necessary or desirable, I'll add my voice to those objecting to the decision to schedule a vote. It seems clear that the drafter of this bill needs a bit more time to consider what he wants his proposal to actually encompass.
ABC, you do not have to adopt all the suggestions you are given. You are free to consider them and decide for yourself if you think they would make your bill worse, if they would make your bill better, or if they have merit but should be in their own bill. I think you will find that you get better results if your approach to people not liking a bill becomes less about changing the nature of the bill and more about changing peoples' minds.
Of course, you are as free to disregard my suggestions as any relating to the content of the bill.
ABC, you do not have to adopt all the suggestions you are given. You are free to consider them and decide for yourself if you think they would make your bill worse, if they would make your bill better, or if they have merit but should be in their own bill. I think you will find that you get better results if your approach to people not liking a bill becomes less about changing the nature of the bill and more about changing peoples' minds.
Of course, you are as free to disregard my suggestions as any relating to the content of the bill.
X
Xyre
Guest
(posted this in the wrong thread! Apologies)
X
Xyre
Guest
Now, onto my actual discussion on this legislation:
I honestly don't see why this needs to be written in law. There is no benefit to it, there is no point to it and there is no discernible reason for it when something of this nature is purely symbolic.
I honestly don't see why this needs to be written in law. There is no benefit to it, there is no point to it and there is no discernible reason for it when something of this nature is purely symbolic.
You probably could have just edited that into your first post and no one (except for meXyre:
) would have noticed. Oh well. 
Personally, I wouldn't mind something to recognize longstanding members who have contributed to The North Pacific (Elu, Flem, McM, r3n and Raven come to mind (presented in alphabetical order)(recognizing Flem as deserving of recognition)(only mentioning the members I know of)).
However, I wonder whether it would be a better idea for the Ministry of Cultural Affairs to take on this sort of project. The Commendations on NS that the aforementioned players have come to mind (except for Raven who I would argue is equally deserving--something for MoWAA?).
X
Xyre
Guest
It's not that I mind something to recognise people who are deserving of commendation, it's more the idea of putting it into law that seems completely and utterly unnecessary to me.
And yes
Yes I did beat you to editing... but yes, yes I probably could have just edited the first post >.<
And yes
Yes I did beat you to editing... but yes, yes I probably could have just edited the first post >.<Yeah, that's kind of point. Taking a look at Chapter 10 of the Legal Code, that is, Cultural Declarations some of the sections seem to just exist and don't really do much...Xyre:It's not that I mind something to recognise people who are deserving of commendation, it's more the idea of putting it into law that seems completely and utterly unnecessary to me.
And yes
Section 10.1 is used, e.g.
, NPA ops or MoFA publications. Section 10.2 (Holidays) just seems to be there. I've been in TNP for a year and there are eight TNP holidays. I can only recall events happening for two (further inspection reveals three happened), Delegates' Day, Creation Day (1, 2, and 3) and Founders' Day. I don't recall anything happening while I was here for the Remembrance Day, Flag Day, Manumission Day, Democracy Day, or Liberation Day (Fun Fact: I've been here for exactly one of each TNP Holiday). I definitely think that there could be more improvement in our cultural celebrations. While I have been informed that the celebrations were a significant improvement over previous years they definitely didn't seem as remarkable as other cultural events I've taken part in. A Drop In The Ocean (ADO) (a festival with our sister feeder, The South Pacific) was personally quite memorable and active. Thinking it over, there could be a variety of factors.
1. We had a larger number of potential participants (although I do remember during my stint as MoFA just prior to one of the events being asked to distributed invites NS-wide (something which wasn't really possible in that short of a time but I'm starting to digress (but if we did invite NS as a whole we would have a larger number of participants (and people do visit other regions for festivals (some visited us for some of the ones we had))(no idea if I have enough brackets here
)). 2. Alternatively, it could be because the event lasted much longer (indeed, by popular demand the festival was extended) and that simply a day of celebration is difficult due to timey-wimey stuff.
3. Or it could be because I remember one individual mainly leading the charge for the celebrations (Bootsie for Delegates' Day and Syrixia for the other two) while for the festival with TSP I recall a plethora of individuals invading TSP's Regional Affairs Discord for planning (they were somewhat shocked at the volume of our staff and enthusiasm).
4. Also, the fact that the days mainly seem to be centered on TNP forums as opposed to including the Discord and game-side as well (there was this poll after Creation Day) may have had an effect. I remember ADO being quite active on Discord.
5. Lastly, it's possible that there weren't enough of a wide variety of activities to interest players, take Delegates' Day for example, the majority of the events were reminiscing of past Delegates (something hard for me to do when I've only known one (at that time)
), I think expanding it to include spam games (something popular in TNP) centered around Delegates would have been quite appealing for an example. I do know that there was another festival just recently with Balder and that seems to have been quite lackluster. This seems to be the sole post regarding it. I've been informed that it wasn't that active and that many of the events planned did not come to fruition. As I was not involved in the planning of it (correlation is not causation
) I've decided to ignore it in my whatever it is that is above this. The last section of this chapter concerns Religious Observance which, again, I've seen little done with it (don't have much experience with it so leaving discussion alone).
So I've looked this all over and I'm not sure where I was going with it? I think my point is that efforts should be concerted on cultural thingies through the Ministry of Cultural Affairs rather than the legislature and perhaps if it's a success with the Ministry to move it to the legislature for whatever it is we do here.
And hey, this way you increase your post count.
X
Xyre
Guest
I believe, in a roundabout and confusing way, we were actually agreeing with one another haha.
I definitely agree that this is something that either the Ministry of Interior or the Ministry of Cultural Affairs (much more likely the latter) ought to be looking after, rather than drafting new specific legislation for this.
And lol, I guess so! There are some benefits to making mistakes I guess!
I definitely agree that this is something that either the Ministry of Interior or the Ministry of Cultural Affairs (much more likely the latter) ought to be looking after, rather than drafting new specific legislation for this.
And lol, I guess so! There are some benefits to making mistakes I guess!
Guess so.Xyre:I believe, in a roundabout and confusing way, we were actually agreeing with one another haha.
I definitely agree that this is something that either the Ministry of Interior or the Ministry of Cultural Affairs (much more likely the latter) ought to be looking after, rather than drafting new specific legislation for this.
And lol, I guess so! There are some benefits to making mistakes I guess!
Inner Pedantic of [me] runs in.
We don't have a Ministry of Interior, you're probably thinking of the Ministry of Home Affairs. And other than the MoWAA and the MoD pretty much every Ministry should be involved in Cultural Celebrations: MoHA for polls and RMB, MoComm for publications, MoFA for advertisements, and MoCA of course for the event.
Anyways we're kind of disgressing from the topic so...
[me] runs away