Ramblings

Sasten

Mad Computer
TNP Nation
Sasten
Discord
Sasten#9001
Exactly what it says on the tin. I tend to write ridiculously long posts on Discord...so now I'll just be putting my ridiculously long posts in a location less likely to cause physical, mental or emotional injury to anyone reading them.

Leaving the OP as it is for now, I might use it to index some of my ramblings if people actually want to read them.
 
This is basically copied from a reply I made on Discord, which is why the formatting may be a bit off if you're expecting a straight essay.

On military sizes and realism, in far more words than was actually necessary:

Re: Military sizes. I understand Xen's frustrations with preposterous military numbers, but understand that you can't just copypaste real world troop numbers into Eras and expect it to work. Yes, IRL most countries do have armies numbering only in a few tens of thousands or a couple hundred thousand at most. But you have to know /why/ that is. In the present day on Earth, there is no /need/ for modern armies numbering several hundred thousand or even over a million...at least not for now... The modern military is typically used in international policing and peacekeeping operations, and besides that, most of those countries have the US, Russia or China as allies in case of attack (I will not comment on how that may change in the future aside from acknowledging that possibility). Huge militaries are very, very expensive, and if there is no pressing need for it, then slash the budget and put that into government programs or tax cuts.
However, were those countries to be attacked, they would be crushed very quickly. Against one of the big three (China, Russia, USA), 100 thousand men equipped with less than a hundred tanks, a couple hundred APCs, and an entire air force that could fit on a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier with room to spare, is completely, thoroughly, utterly inadequate. It'll do some damage and maybe hold a couple major cities before being wiped out, and that's about it. Getting into the low hundreds of thousands will fare far better, but they'll still be vulnerable to obliteration without international support.
Real-world militaries are as small as they are because the high costs of maintaining a huge force (e.g Canada used to maintain an aircraft carrier and a navy that dwarfed the Kriegsmarine, but no longer maintains more than a handful of frigates in the present) do not outweigh the benefits of added protection against threats that do not (or did not) exist. On Eras...it doesn't work that way. While there are a few fractional alliances and defence agreements (NWU, PU, Pax Latina, Trillium, META), none of them are perceived to offer sufficient protection to justify huge post-Cold-War-style RIF cuts versus the potential benefits of lower taxes, lower deficits and more social services. Whether this is actually the case isn't necessarily important; the members of those alliances do not want to dump their militaries and offload invasion protection to the other members of the alliances (which is actually a serious problem with NATO, as most of its members have cut their militaries so thin that without Uncle Sam they'd be useless against a possible Russian or Chinese attack). The end result of this is that everyone (except Xen) sees the need to build as large a military as they can sustain, and TBH I actually agree with that sort of thinking given the sheer number of wars Eras seems to be so prone to.
THAT BEING SAID, I do think there needs to be a reasonable limit on how large a military any nation would have. 2% has been described, but that's actually /massive/. Like, last-ditch effort in a total territorial invasion massive. 1% would be a more realistic point, although 0.5% would be a decent target for hardcore realism. The key here is that they're percentages, not definite numbers. My nation, Sasten, could equip an army of 1.7 Million with an enlistment rate of ~0.9%. This is still very high, but is reasonably in line with other Erasian countries. Even still, I'd be hard pressed to supply that with less than 20% of my budget, though I could possibly do it on non-major-procurement years given that Sastennic taxes are so high and tax avoidance and evasion being lower than average due to a dedicated (and terrifying) tax collection service and the unusually...lethal consequences that not paying your taxes entails. Smaller countries just shouldn't be able to have such large militaries. A nation like say...Demescia, were they to field 1.5 million active-duty personal, would be using more than 2.16% of their total population. It's...possible, but not sustainable, and their budget wouldn't be able to accommodate modern equipment and training without extremely high taxes, huge deficits, or deep service cuts.
This is also one of the problems with limiting nations to a "realistic" population size. During a war (which rightly or wrongly is the most popular type of RP on NS), everyone wants to emulate either the US or Russian/Soviet militaries, and with good reason; they had the best equipment, coolest tanks, most badass navy ships, and a full-on battle between them would be far more epic and world-war-like than a clash between, say, Canada and Australia. That sort of military, however, is not sustainable by a mid-sized country, which is what most people go for when told to keep a "realistic" population.
Essentially, the problem boils down to a difficult-to-reconcile conflict between having a big military and a reasonable population, and the impasse can only be solved by making the nation bigger, which nobody will recognize, or shrinking the military, which nobody will do.
 
2% is all well and good for a modern equipped army, but the north Korean army is 1.2 million active personnel and a staggering 7.7 in reserve, that's 35% of their population. Though it can hardly be called a modern army, it is still reasonably well equipped for it's size
 
Cogoria:
2% is all well and good for a modern equipped army, but the north Korean army is 1.2 million active personnel and a staggering 7.7 in reserve, that's 35% of their population. Though it can hardly be called a modern army, it is still reasonably well equipped for it's size
If you are going to try to use facts to back up your argument please actually get the facts right. The NKAF has 1.2M active and only 600K in reserves. It has 5.89M in an estimation of Paramilitary Forces which are even worse equipped then the actual Military. It should also be noted that all together even with the Paramilitary added that is 7.6M total and a lower 30.8% of Population and not 35%. Your little quip about them being well equipped is also a little stretching, they often don't have enough food to feed their military and they only have enough fuel to run about 10% of their ships and vehicles on a regular basis, They also can only wage a war for 100 days on the most liberal estimate of their ammunition and fuel reserves.

~LL
 
Sasten:
This is basically copied from a reply I made on Discord, which is why the formatting may be a bit off if you're expecting a straight essay.

On military sizes and realism, in far more words than was actually necessary:

Re: Military sizes. I understand Xen's frustrations with preposterous military numbers, but understand that you can't just copypaste real world troop numbers into Eras and expect it to work. Yes, IRL most countries do have armies numbering only in a few tens of thousands or a couple hundred thousand at most. But you have to know /why/ that is. In the present day on Earth, there is no /need/ for modern armies numbering several hundred thousand or even over a million...at least not for now... The modern military is typically used in international policing and peacekeeping operations, and besides that, most of those countries have the US, Russia or China as allies in case of attack (I will not comment on how that may change in the future aside from acknowledging that possibility). Huge militaries are very, very expensive, and if there is no pressing need for it, then slash the budget and put that into government programs or tax cuts.
However, were those countries to be attacked, they would be crushed very quickly. Against one of the big three (China, Russia, USA), 100 thousand men equipped with less than a hundred tanks, a couple hundred APCs, and an entire air force that could fit on a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier with room to spare, is completely, thoroughly, utterly inadequate. It'll do some damage and maybe hold a couple major cities before being wiped out, and that's about it. Getting into the low hundreds of thousands will fare far better, but they'll still be vulnerable to obliteration without international support.
Real-world militaries are as small as they are because the high costs of maintaining a huge force (e.g Canada used to maintain an aircraft carrier and a navy that dwarfed the Kriegsmarine, but no longer maintains more than a handful of frigates in the present) do not outweigh the benefits of added protection against threats that do not (or did not) exist. On Eras...it doesn't work that way. While there are a few fractional alliances and defence agreements (NWU, PU, Pax Latina, Trillium, META), none of them are perceived to offer sufficient protection to justify huge post-Cold-War-style RIF cuts versus the potential benefits of lower taxes, lower deficits and more social services. Whether this is actually the case isn't necessarily important; the members of those alliances do not want to dump their militaries and offload invasion protection to the other members of the alliances (which is actually a serious problem with NATO, as most of its members have cut their militaries so thin that without Uncle Sam they'd be useless against a possible Russian or Chinese attack). The end result of this is that everyone (except Xen) sees the need to build as large a military as they can sustain, and TBH I actually agree with that sort of thinking given the sheer number of wars Eras seems to be so prone to.
THAT BEING SAID, I do think there needs to be a reasonable limit on how large a military any nation would have. 2% has been described, but that's actually /massive/. Like, last-ditch effort in a total territorial invasion massive. 1% would be a more realistic point, although 0.5% would be a decent target for hardcore realism. The key here is that they're percentages, not definite numbers. My nation, Sasten, could equip an army of 1.7 Million with an enlistment rate of ~0.9%. This is still very high, but is reasonably in line with other Erasian countries. Even still, I'd be hard pressed to supply that with less than 20% of my budget, though I could possibly do it on non-major-procurement years given that Sastennic taxes are so high and tax avoidance and evasion being lower than average due to a dedicated (and terrifying) tax collection service and the unusually...lethal consequences that not paying your taxes entails. Smaller countries just shouldn't be able to have such large militaries. A nation like say...Demescia, were they to field 1.5 million active-duty personal, would be using more than 2.16% of their total population. It's...possible, but not sustainable, and their budget wouldn't be able to accommodate modern equipment and training without extremely high taxes, huge deficits, or deep service cuts.
This is also one of the problems with limiting nations to a "realistic" population size. During a war (which rightly or wrongly is the most popular type of RP on NS), everyone wants to emulate either the US or Russian/Soviet militaries, and with good reason; they had the best equipment, coolest tanks, most badass navy ships, and a full-on battle between them would be far more epic and world-war-like than a clash between, say, Canada and Australia. That sort of military, however, is not sustainable by a mid-sized country, which is what most people go for when told to keep a "realistic" population.
Essentially, the problem boils down to a difficult-to-reconcile conflict between having a big military and a reasonable population, and the impasse can only be solved by making the nation bigger, which nobody will recognize, or shrinking the military, which nobody will do.
Just clarifying, but by 2% being massive, does that include reserves?
 
Mystery Player:
Just clarifying, but by 2% being massive, does that include reserves?
It does include reserves. The notion of reserves being a huge backup to the active forces, sometimes double or triple the size of the armed contingent, is far less common than people seem to think, though it does happen. At any rate, In Real Life, militaries with more than 1% of their population in their entire combined forces are actually quite rare; most of those that do tend to be under severe combat circumstances (e.g. Ukraine, Syria) or else have governments that demand massive numbers of soldiers for domestic reasons.

On Eras, it is a bit different, but not to the point of breaking the rules of sanity. There are wars everywhere, and besides that, RP'ers just like having bigass militaries. 1% or even up to 1.25% aren't the most implausible numbers, although they'll probably make most hardcore realists (who estimate (quite rightly) that 0.5% is a more realistic limit) cry. Any more than that though is pushing the limits of sustainability; remember that militaries are bloody expensive, and a whole percent of the total population is not an insubstantial chunk taken directly out of the working-age population, from which they'll be redistributed. A country that tries to put more soldiers on the field than its economy and population can reasonably support just won't be able to supply them with the materials they need to fight effectively. That cutoff, with the upper limit being a few percent higher than 2%, is not hard; it's a sliding scale. You can field 2% or more of your population in the military...if, and only if, you're prepared to face the economic consequences, budget concerns and logistical issues that mobilizing such a chunk of your working population would entail, which of course get (almost exponentially) worse as that proportion gets bigger. Hell, even having a military has consequences compared to not having one, and a 1% of population military will put budgetary and economic strains on your budget that few countries RL have to worry too much about.

Use sanity, use reason, and use evidence supplied by the ~200 countries in the Real World. A high percentage may sound nice, but only if you ignore all of its drawbacks, and there's a reason why most real-world countries have done as they have.
 
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