[CRIMINAL] Complaint by Cormac

Cormac

TNPer
Name of Complainant: Cormac

Name(s) of Accused: Flemingovia

Date(s) of Alleged Offense(s): 04 May 2016

Specific Offense(s): Fraud

Relevant Excerpts from Legal Code or other Laws: Section 1.3, clause 12 of the Legal Code:

12. "Fraud" is defined as an intentional deception, by falsehood or omission, made for some benefit or to damage another individual.
Summary of Events (What happened, in your own words): Flemingovia accused the complainant, me, of being more toxic than Govindia, who is banned from this forum for reaching a 100% warning level and then exceeding that warning level by continuing to repeatedly attempt to make actionable posts while under post moderation. As a forum administrator, Flemingovia was closely involved in discussions to issue warnings and finally to impose a ban upon Govindia, and imposed the ban himself. He is well aware of how toxic Govindia is, and moreover, he is also well aware that I am nowhere near his warning level (I'm not sure at the time of this complaint of my warning level but it is significantly lower, if I've even been warned before). Flemingovia deceptively made accusations he knew to be false against me, which may have been believed by newer users of this forum less familiar with Govindia, to benefit his argument in a World Assembly discussion and to damage my reputation, which constitutes fraud.

Evidentiary Submissions (Evidentiary Submissions may be submitted to the Attorney General or Deputy Attorney General in charge of the Criminal Division via PM):

http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8280407&t=7536454
Comments: The Attorney General's office may also wish to review this thread, in which forum administrators and moderators, including Flemingovia, discuss Govindia's final warnings and ban at great length and in great detail.

The Attorney General's office may also wish to take into consideration that Govindia has been banned from multiple other regions and/or their forums for egregious out-of-character harassment, but as this did not occur within The North Pacific I was uncertain whether it would be admissible as evidence here, which is why I have exclusively referred to Govindia's behavior in The North Pacific in the official summary of my complaint.

Please also note that I have not posted this in the Complaint Docket as directed because I do not have permission to post there, presumably due to my registration as a resident not yet being processed.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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interesting.

This accusation, if allowed by the courts opens up accusations of fraud to a whole new range of posts, way beyond where it has previously been applied.

I, of course, plead not guilty and will appoint my counsel shortly.
 

23 Mere

TNPer
If this is the only piece of evidence being put forward in argument of the case I'd advise the Attorney General's Office to not even waste their time. Making a jest, no matter how spiteful, isn't a matter of criminal law. Preposterous.
 

Gracius Maximus

Tyrant (Ret.)
23 Mere:
If this is the only piece of evidence being put forward in argument of the case I'd advise the Attorney General's Office to not even waste their time. Making a jest, no matter how spiteful, isn't a matter of criminal law. Preposterous.
You really are new around here, aren't you? :)

We in TNP can (and often do) make criminal issues out of pretty much anything.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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It would be terribly boring if the court prevented this coming to trial.

There is something entertaining about watching a toddler tantrum.
 

Syrixia

The one, the true, the great.
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flemingovia:
It would be terribly boring if the court prevented this coming to trial.

There is something entertaining about watching a toddler tantrum.
Or we could up the ante by bringing it to the Fiqh. Osiris certainly doesn't seem like a place to hold the Fiqh right now. :lol: Perhaps we could hold a session here. :P
 
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Deleted User (Guest)

Guest
Osiris has never officially held the Fiqh. Osiris is culturally and creatively dead and has been for over three years - it did not have the means to sustain the roleplaying creativity needed, let alone the sense of humour necessary to tolerate Flemingoviaism.
 

thegemini

TNPer
Gracius Maximus:
23 Mere:
If this is the only piece of evidence being put forward in argument of the case I'd advise the Attorney General's Office to not even waste their time. Making a jest, no matter how spiteful, isn't a matter of criminal law. Preposterous.
You really are new around here, aren't you? :)

We in TNP can (and often do) make criminal issues out of pretty much anything.
ya. Don't waste the public time on this. It just isn't worth it. At best he deserves maybe a verbal warning: Flem and Cormac you two need to stay away from each other. :headbang:

Admin edit: removing inappropriate word use
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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is it possible to ask the court / the attorney general's office for a rough timetable as to when this case might come to trial? We are approaching the summer slowdown and nobody wishes to have a criminal trial hanging over them for longer than is necessary.
 

Cormac

TNPer
I would like to note for the Attorney General's office, as an addendum to my complaint, that forum administrator Eluvatar has informed me that I have no forum warnings at all.

23 Mere:
If this is the only piece of evidence being put forward in argument of the case I'd advise the Attorney General's Office to not even waste their time. Making a jest, no matter how spiteful, isn't a matter of criminal law. Preposterous.
Eluvatar:
I can't think of an instance where such a joke actually led to conviction however ;)
Flemingovia has never indicated that this was "a jest" or "a joke." Additionally, there isn't much funny about saying someone is more toxic than a player banned from this forum for multiple instances of out-of-character harassment, a player banned from multiple regions for OOC harassment of the most severe kind, up to and including showing up at another player's front door without invitation.

Flemingovia's "jest" was out-of-character defamation of character, ruled not actionable by forum administration because a) they are biased toward Flemingovia, an administrator, and b) several of them don't like me.

Lord Ravenclaw:
Osiris has never officially held the Fiqh. Osiris is culturally and creatively dead and has been for over three years - it did not have the means to sustain the roleplaying creativity needed, let alone the sense of humour necessary to tolerate Flemingoviaism.
Why is Osiris being brought up in this thread, a criminal complaint filed in The North Pacific, by a resident of The North Pacific, regarding behavior in The North Pacific? It would be nice if the Delegate could at least pretend to keep his conflicts of interests and biases in check.
 

Guy

TNPer
Eluvatar:
I've been advised that this ruling is even more relevant than the trial verdict I linked earlier.
Quite fatal, if you ask me. Without even going into the MR, it's clear that the statement (or any imputation it carries?) must have an incontrovertible truth value.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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this is a novel approach to doing trials in TNP. The Attorneys General stay silent ( I do not count "I'll go poke Tomb" as a meaningful contribution) and the community chips in on the official complaint thread. Actually, I quite like it. It has an informal quality.

Cormac:
Flemingovia has never indicated that this was "a jest" or "a joke."
I had no idea That Cormac found light-hearted hyperbole so hard to spot. Certainly nobody else i have spoken to has had difficulty working it out.

Now that I know, I will be careful to use the [/joke] tag when addressing or referencing Cormac in the future. Cormac, you can recognise it thusly:

[joke] I went to the zoo last week. All the cages were empty except for one containing a small dog. It as a Shih Tzu[/quote]

I cannot help but feel that this will impede my comedic timing, but needs must.

to make things clear, the comment that occasioned this complaint was hyperbole, inserted for homourous effect. I have no empirical evidence concerning the relative toxicity of any persons in Nationstates.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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Flemingovia's "jest" was out-of-character defamation of character, ruled not actionable by forum administration because a) they are biased toward Flemingovia, an administrator, and b) several of them don't like me.
Admin note to all. If you could witness some of the admin discussions you would realise how absurd this comment is.

first off, admins are more openly critical of each other than you would believe. There certainly is no "admin club".

Secondly, all the admins work incredibly hard to be impartial once we start discussing or posting as admins. Generally we err on the side of leniency, which is why so few reports result in warning level increases.

this desire for impartiality is why some reports take days and days to process. every decision is discussed by the team, and personal feelings are left at the door.

Sorry to interject with an admin hat on, but i could not let this slander against my colleagues go uncorrected.
 

Cormac

TNPer
flemingovia:
to make things clear, the comment that occasioned this complaint was hyperbole, inserted for homourous effect. I have no empirical evidence concerning the relative toxicity of any persons in Nationstates.
It wasn't funny. You try being told you're more toxic than a player who engages in real life harassment of other NationStates players, up to and including showing up uninvited at one player's front door, and see if you find that amusing.

I can take a joke at my expense, but this was way across the line, and despite your pretense of making an innocent joke I am absolutely certain you know it was across the line. It is despicable to make this kind of "joke." Aside from being profoundly insulting and defamatory toward me, it is also profoundly dismissive in regard to the actual, real life harassment Govindia has engaged in, and demeaning to victims of his harassment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That said, I have no confidence that either the Attorney General's office or the Court will take this matter seriously if the administrative team didn't. The fix is clearly in. I withdraw my criminal complaint, but let me just say how disappointed I am in TNP as a community that most of you seem to be just fine with sweeping this kind of serious defamation under the rug and shrugging it off as a joke as long as it's directed at someone you don't like. You are no better than anyone you ridicule for not doing things your way. Your Delegate and his loyalists may mock Osiris, but Flemingovia's comment would never have been tolerated in Osiris without at least an unofficial reprimand, no matter how much we may like or dislike the person at whom the comment was directed. Stuff that in your self-righteous pipes and smoke it the next time you feel like proclaiming how much better TNP is than Osiris or [insert region here].
 

falapatorius

TNPer
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Cormac:
I withdraw my criminal complaint, but let me just say how disappointed I am in TNP as a community that most of you seem to be absolutely okay with sweeping this kind of serious defamation under the rug and shrugging it off as a joke as long as it's directed at someone you don't like. You are no better than anyone you ridicule for not doing things your way. Your Delegate and his loyalists may mock Osiris, but Flemingovia's comment would never have been tolerated in Osiris without at least an unofficial reprimand, no matter how much we may like or dislike the person at whom the comment was directed. Stuff that in your self-righteous pipe and smoke it the next time you feel like proclaiming how much better TNP is than Osiris or [insert region here].
Seeing that you've withdrawn your complaint, I'd like to reply here. I'm going to agree you've been treated shamefully. Peanut gallery comments in a complaint thread, mocking of the complainant by the defendant, and the admin team's refusal to remask you as a resident without giving a valid reason (presumably to keep you from posting in certain threads). Plenty of other people were remasked that were further down the queue than you. On top of that, the sizable AG team has been painfully silent thus far. I'll finish by saying I'm disappointed with how you've been treated, regardless of events elsewhere in the NS World.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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I note the withdrawal of this complaint and thank those who agreed to be on my defence team but now will not be needed.
 

Eluvatar

TNPer
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falapatorius:
Cormac:
I withdraw my criminal complaint, but let me just say how disappointed I am in TNP as a community that most of you seem to be absolutely okay with sweeping this kind of serious defamation under the rug and shrugging it off as a joke as long as it's directed at someone you don't like. You are no better than anyone you ridicule for not doing things your way. Your Delegate and his loyalists may mock Osiris, but Flemingovia's comment would never have been tolerated in Osiris without at least an unofficial reprimand, no matter how much we may like or dislike the person at whom the comment was directed. Stuff that in your self-righteous pipe and smoke it the next time you feel like proclaiming how much better TNP is than Osiris or [insert region here].
Seeing that you've withdrawn your complaint, I'd like to reply here. I'm going to agree you've been treated shamefully. Peanut gallery comments in a complaint thread, mocking of the complainant by the defendant, and the admin team's refusal to remask you as a resident without giving a valid reason (presumably to keep you from posting in certain threads). Plenty of other people were remasked that were further down the queue than you. On top of that, the sizable AG team has been painfully silent thus far. I'll finish by saying I'm disappointed with how you've been treated, regardless of events elsewhere in the NS World.
I'm sorry that I can't help with Resident masking in general, but who has been masked as a Resident (not Citizen, mind) ahead of Cormac?
 

St George

Speaker
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I'm amused by the implication that the admin team has anything to gain by not re-masking Cormac to resident. Perhaps either Cormac or Falapatorius could enlighten the rest of the region on what would be at the very least a highly amusing conspiracy.
 

Gladio

TNPer
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St George:
I'm amused by the implication that the admin team has anything to gain by not re-masking Cormac to resident. Perhaps either Cormac or Falapatorius could enlighten the rest of the region on what would be at the very least a highly amusing conspiracy.
:agree:
 
D

Deleted User (Guest)

Guest
I cannot handle security checks while Delegate. It is a conflict of interest that I would rather avoid. Flemingovia is our primarily active administrator who does an incredible amount of work.
 

Cormac

TNPer
St George:
I'm amused by the implication that the admin team has anything to gain by not re-masking Cormac to resident. Perhaps either Cormac or Falapatorius could enlighten the rest of the region on what would be at the very least a highly amusing conspiracy.
I have not at any point accused forum administration of refusing to re-mask me, I have only inquired about the delay -- and been ignored.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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nobody is refusing to do anything. There is only one active admin, and only so many hours in the day. I am having to prioritise, and the priority has been to answer the requests of the NPA and Speaker's office. We try to discourage every Tom, Dick or Harry posting in the admin requests thread, because pretty soon an already complex system becomes a free for all, so I rarely even look at posts that do not come from the NPA or Speaker's office.

At present, i am spending around 10 - 15 hours a week on Admin tasks. Not much slack for much more. Added to which, over the past couple of days this trial request and sorting out a defence team has taken time out of the available time for NS.
 

Cormac

TNPer
flemingovia:
nobody is refusing to do anything. There is only one active admin, and only so many hours in the day. I am having to prioritise, and the priority has been to answer the requests of the NPA and Speaker's office. We try to discourage every Tom, Dick or Harry posting in the admin requests thread, because pretty soon an already complex system becomes a free for all, so I rarely even look at posts that do not come from the NPA or Speaker's office.

At present, i am spending around 10 - 15 hours a week on Admin tasks. Not much slack for much more. Added to which, over the past couple of days this trial request and sorting out a defence team has taken time out of the available time for NS.
As I said on IRC, if the delay is just due to backlog then that's fine, I don't mind waiting. Not getting any answer to my polite inquiries left me wondering if it was due to a backlog or if my registration was just being ignored. Thank you for finally answering that question.

I'm fine with waiting to be re-masked as a resident, now that I know why. I'm lower priority than new citizen applicants, NPA applicants, etc.
 
C

Canton

Guest
Cormac:
flemingovia:
to make things clear, the comment that occasioned this complaint was hyperbole, inserted for homourous effect. I have no empirical evidence concerning the relative toxicity of any persons in Nationstates.
It wasn't funny. You try being told you're more toxic than a player who engages in real life harassment of other NationStates players, up to and including showing up uninvited at one player's front door, and see if you find that amusing.

I can take a joke at my expense, but this was way across the line, and despite your pretense of making an innocent joke I am absolutely certain you know it was across the line. It is despicable to make this kind of "joke." Aside from being profoundly insulting and defamatory toward me, it is also profoundly dismissive in regard to the actual, real life harassment Govindia has engaged in, and demeaning to victims of his harassment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That said, I have no confidence that either the Attorney General's office or the Court will take this matter seriously if the administrative team didn't. The fix is clearly in. I withdraw my criminal complaint, but let me just say how disappointed I am in TNP as a community that most of you seem to be just fine with sweeping this kind of serious defamation under the rug and shrugging it off as a joke as long as it's directed at someone you don't like. You are no better than anyone you ridicule for not doing things your way. Your Delegate and his loyalists may mock Osiris, but Flemingovia's comment would never have been tolerated in Osiris without at least an unofficial reprimand, no matter how much we may like or dislike the person at whom the comment was directed. Stuff that in your self-righteous pipes and smoke it the next time you feel like proclaiming how much better TNP is than Osiris or [insert region here].
Dear god, is this another bid to stay relevant? Or is this a Legitimate attempt at a trumped up charge?
 

Guy

TNPer
Cormac:
It wasn't funny. You try being told you're more toxic than a player who engages in real life harassment of other NationStates players, up to and including showing up uninvited at one player's front door, and see if you find that amusing.

I can take a joke at my expense, but this was way across the line, and despite your pretense of making an innocent joke I am absolutely certain you know it was across the line. It is despicable to make this kind of "joke." Aside from being profoundly insulting and defamatory toward me, it is also profoundly dismissive in regard to the actual, real life harassment Govindia has engaged in, and demeaning to victims of his harassment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That said, I have no confidence that either the Attorney General's office or the Court will take this matter seriously if the administrative team didn't. The fix is clearly in. I withdraw my criminal complaint, but let me just say how disappointed I am in TNP as a community that most of you seem to be just fine with sweeping this kind of serious defamation under the rug and shrugging it off as a joke as long as it's directed at someone you don't like. You are no better than anyone you ridicule for not doing things your way. Your Delegate and his loyalists may mock Osiris, but Flemingovia's comment would never have been tolerated in Osiris without at least an unofficial reprimand, no matter how much we may like or dislike the person at whom the comment was directed. Stuff that in your self-righteous pipes and smoke it the next time you feel like proclaiming how much better TNP is than Osiris or [insert region here].
Regardless of its truth value, I think the comment was at the least inappropriate. Tone down the rhetoric, and you may convince more people of that.

In terms of the criminal complaint, it was clear that there was no case to answer. You will have invariably failed to meet all the elements for the offence that flem would be charged with, given the very clear prior precedent.
 

falapatorius

TNPer
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Eluvatar:
I'm sorry that I can't help with Resident masking in general, but who has been masked as a Resident (not Citizen, mind) ahead of Cormac?
Does that matter? Are residents below consideration? It's not like there weren't multiple requests for updates on the matter.

Guy:
In terms of the criminal complaint, it was clear that there was no case to answer.
On the charge of Fraud, perhaps. I would have liked the AG's office make that determination, not the peanut gallery. There was definitely defamation though. However, that's not a crime here.
 

Eluvatar

TNPer
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Resident applications have not been treated as an equal priority to Citizen applications by the administrator(s) currently able to perform those duties. I think why should be clear if one considers the matter.
 

falapatorius

TNPer
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Eluvatar:
Resident applications have not been treated as an equal priority to Citizen applications by the administrator(s) currently able to perform those duties. I think why should be clear if one considers the matter.
So that's yes to my question then? Alright. Good thing I didn't go the registered resident route.
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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there is one area of this that could do with highlighting.

This was a fairly charged accusation, and we are already in the second page of comments.

It is resolved, but the discussion was a bit of a free-for-all in a formal accusation thread. I have not seen an indictment thread allowed to turn into a peanut gallery before.

My point is, we have five Attorneys General in this region. Where were they?
 

Gracius Maximus

Tyrant (Ret.)
flemingovia:
there is one area of this that could do with highlighting.

This was a fairly charged accusation, and we are already in the second page of comments.

It is resolved, but the discussion was a bit of a free-for-all in a formal accusation thread. I have not seen an indictment thread allowed to turn into a peanut gallery before.

My point is, we have five Attorneys General in this region. Where were they?
According to one of them they are busy going through the tremendous backlog left by the previous Attorney General. :blink:
 

Flemingovia

TNPer
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yeah, it can be a drag taking over from a slackard.

Rule 1 of politics. When challenged blame the previous administration.
 

punk d

TNPer
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Gracius Maximus:
flemingovia:
there is one area of this that could do with highlighting.

This was a fairly charged accusation, and we are already in the second page of comments.

It is resolved, but the discussion was a bit of a free-for-all in a formal accusation thread. I have not seen an indictment thread allowed to turn into a peanut gallery before.

My point is, we have five Attorneys General in this region. Where were they?
According to one of them they are busy going through the tremendous backlog left by the previous Attorney General. :blink:
That line only worked for whomever succeeded Grosse, but I digress.

[Admin hat]
Cormac has flippantly thrown shade at the admins of this forum and I would like the users of this forum to note the following. Much time was spent and I actually think more time will be spent on Cormac's (and anyone's) complaints submitted via the report function. It's rare when a complaint is resolved in 24 hours. As Flem noted we spend a good deal of time discussing complaints and you read through 2-3 of these threads and you'll see we have very different opinions.

I tend to not be offended by most things and I like to hand out warnings only for the most egregious offenses. Others are a little more strict. But we're a team, an admin team, and we like to consider all of our opinions because we don't always agree but we respect one another. And that's valuable. So there is nothing that is reported that is ever ignored nor taking flippantly. It does not happen and won't happen with this admin team.

Does that mean you will always like our conclusions? No. But what it does mean is that we take every complaint seriously.

As for backlog on admin requests, flem has been doing yeoman's work as much of the admin team, myself included, has been MIA. We're all struggling with the RL bug so if something slips through the cracks it's only a result of an inadvertent error. Nothing malicious.

[/admin hat]
 

Cormac

TNPer
punk d:
Cormac has flippantly thrown shade at the admins of this forum and I would like the users of this forum to note the following. Much time was spent and I actually think more time will be spent on Cormac's (and anyone's) complaints submitted via the report function. It's rare when a complaint is resolved in 24 hours. As Flem noted we spend a good deal of time discussing complaints and you read through 2-3 of these threads and you'll see we have very different opinions.
The implication here is that my report is still under review and that I criticized the administrative team too quickly. But I checked with Eluvatar before filing the now-withdrawn criminal complaint, and he said that "[t]he report has been closed" and "[t]he general consensus was that the comment was not warnable." This wasn't a matter of impatience on my part; I confirmed that the administrative team wasn't going to take any action against Flemingovia before filing the criminal complaint.

Given how relatively quickly the administrative team reached the conclusion that calling me more toxic than an individual known to have repeatedly engaged in egregious real life harassment did not constitute serious OOC defamation of character, I continue to believe my report was not taken seriously and that the lack of action taken against Flemingovia reflects bias on the part of the administrative team. Warnings have been issued on this forum for far less, but for this Flemingovia wasn't even so much as unofficially reprimanded and told to knock it off.
 

punk d

TNPer
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[admin hat]Unbenknownst to you there are other reports around this same issue and we have been discussing the situation as a whole.

Trust me, we don't throw out reports flippantly. And we take reports filed against admins seriously.
[/admin hat]
 
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