TWPs now an oligarchy

Johanness

Johanness

TNPer
Just noticed this even though it happened a month ago, but basically the West Pacific voted it's Regional Assembly (The Voice) out of power and give the Delegate (and his Ministers) full authority.

Elegarth:
deposited all its powers and management in the hands of the Delegate of The West Pacific, me. As such, this is the government structure I'd like to retain:
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(Source)

So this basically means TWPs Constitution is no longer valid and TWP is now ruled by around 6 people, making it an oligarchy. I doubt the Delegate is even democratically elected.
 
St George:
TWP has always been an oligarchy.
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Not really. Before, there was a Regional Assembly (Voice) which anyone in that region could participate in the Government and have a say on its affairs. There was a democratically elected Advocate and there was a Justice system. Now there's nothing but a Delegate and 4-5 Ministers, which is not even elected.
 
I confess, I already knew. I've never found a reason to care - The West Pacific is capable of making its own decisions and I for one respect that. They have their way, and we, in the North, have ours. :tnp:
 
Johanness:
St George:
TWP has always been an oligarchy.
Click to expand...
Not really. Before, there was a Regional Assembly (Voice) which anyone in that region could participate in the Government and have a say on its affairs. There was a democratically elected Advocate and there was a Justice system. Now there's nothing but a Delegate and 4-5 Ministers, which is not even elected.
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I've been in the game for almost a decade, and in the last 7 years or so, TWP has had 10 delegates. That includes at least one couper. Three of those delegates have had multiple delegacies in that time.

TWP has been an oligarchy for as long or longer than most people have been playing the game.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
I confess, I already knew. I've never found a reason to care - The West Pacific is capable of making its own decisions and I for one respect that. They have their way, and we, in the North, have ours. :tnp:
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I don't particularly care which governmental structure GCRs choose, but I have to say that I do definitely see an argument that the government may lose its legitimacy. At some point, the prevalent structure cannot be said to be one which the region chooses, and there are examples a-plenty.
 
TWP is an interesting community with an interesting government structure, but like Raven said, they have found their preferred way of governance and it's seems to be suiting them very well.
 
The title kinda threw me off, because I read "TNP has an oligarchy", and was very confused/interested to see what logic was behind that. :P
 
Bootsie:
The title kinda threw me off, because I read "TNP has an oligarchy", and was very confused/interested to see what logic was behind that. :P
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Maybe the Oligarchy finally coup'd us? :3
 
Putting on my TWP hat for a moment....

TWP has been ruled by a few members (here it was reported as 6) for quite some time. Doesn't seem long to me because 2005 doesn't seem all that long ago, but the TWP Guardians (punk D is a retired Guardian) have been ruling TWP for some time.

I was a strong advocate for dissolving The Voice. The offsite government of TWP was not truly functional and it didn't seem as though anyone really had the motivation to do something about it. I offered that TWP is just a different beast and should embrace herself versus trying to be other regions. TWP is much more an onsite community than an offsite one. And that's why a move such as this makes a lot of sense.

But every feeder is an oligarchy. A few of us control the thousands of nations in our region. My two dimes
 
If I get a riot demanding my execution to free TNP of its chains of oppression, I am sending you my hospital bill.
 
we could see it as an opportunity

Send a lot of recruitment messages to nations within the West to try and bring nations to TNP and that's it.

Let them have the party that they desire, nations have the freedom to choose which ever region they want to join
 
Sergio86:
we could see it as an opportunity

Send a lot of recruitment messages to nations within the West to try and bring nations to TNP and that's it.

Let them have the party that they desire, nations have the freedom to choose which ever region they want to join
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Recruiting from other feeders is not what we or any other feeder does.
 
That is highly inadvisable, not to mention it would be termed as a "dick move".

As a Feeder, we gain at new nations every day. We do not need to recruit - we simply need to improve integration efforts.
 
flemingovia:
All NS regions are oligarchies. It is just that some are more open about it.
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I disagree with this sentiment very much.

The North Pacific may have individuals who have widespread respect, or who have learned now to advance their views well, but it is a free and democratic region in practice as well as in name.
 
You can be free and democratic and still have an oligarchy of players who will get the prominent positions and more importantly will heavily endorse and encourage a candidate to run, usually in an attempt to continue their own policies that they, through a variety of reasons - though usually term limits, would no longer be able to continue themselves.
 
St George:
You can be free and democratic and still have an oligarchy of players who will get the prominent positions and more importantly will heavily endorse and encourage a candidate to run, usually in an attempt to continue their own policies that they, through a variety of reasons - though usually term limits, would no longer be able to continue themselves.
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Sorta sounds like the United States on that first part. :lol:
 
I fundamentally disagree with the argument that having a 'political class' in our democracy makes us an oligarchy.
 
Do you fundamentally disagree with a group of players essentially being kingmakers in the region?
 
I'd be very wary of making those allegations, as a note. Allegations like that tend to incite bad feelings in a community.
 
I'd be wary of assuming these are allegations.

I'm not saying an oligarchy is a bad thing, indeed it has consistently helped to steer TNP in the right direction. I'm simply saying one exists.

Edit: I'd also be wary of making statements that could - even if not meant in that way - be taken as being said in a threatening tone...
 
Well, I stood for delegate once and got a respectable number of votes... and I didn't have a cat in hell's chance. Fact is that the familiar faces are people trusted in the region to govern effectively by most of us.

I only stood because nobody else was standing against Tomb and I thought "what the hell, might as well give it a try." and still didn't do too badly even after the "ogilarchy" tipped their hats into the ring.
 
St George:
Do you fundamentally disagree with a group of players essentially being kingmakers in the region?
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I would have to say our goal is to be inclusive of the entire region. It would be fantastic if more nations would get involved here. We do make efforts to that end. Once a nation becomes active here, we encourage them to help out the various ministries or run for office. There are great opportunities here. I consider it a defining characteristic of our culture. Personally, I enjoy seeing newer nations grow into successful leaders. It is grand to be the delegate of TNP. I think everyone should go for it. (except JAL. oh, and GM :P )
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
I confess, I already knew. I've never found a reason to care - The West Pacific is capable of making its own decisions and I for one respect that. They have their way, and we, in the North, have ours. :tnp:
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A shame such enlightened thinking didn't prevail during the Balder situation last year. :P
 
North East Somerset:
Lord Ravenclaw:
I confess, I already knew. I've never found a reason to care - The West Pacific is capable of making its own decisions and I for one respect that. They have their way, and we, in the North, have ours. :tnp:
Click to expand...
A shame such enlightened thinking didn't prevail during the Balder situation last year. :P
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We have no treaty tying us to The Voice.
 
Great Bights Mum:
I would have to say our goal is to be inclusive of the entire region. It would be fantastic if more nations would get involved here. We do make efforts to that end. Once a nation becomes active here, we encourage them to help out the various ministries or run for office. There are great opportunities here. I consider it a defining characteristic of our culture. Personally, I enjoy seeing newer nations grow into successful leaders. It is grand to be the delegate of TNP. I think everyone should go for it. (except JAL. oh, and GM :P )
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TNP *IS* inclusive - so long as your face fits.

Look, the reality is that we have not had an election, and certainly not a delegate/vice delegate election in YEARS where the result has not been foregone before the first vote has been cast.

The reality is that we have not had an election where two of the established figures - those who might be considered part of the oligarchy - have stood against one another. This could, of course, be coincidence. But it is stretching credulity to breaking point to see it as such.

The reality is that most often these same players, when it matters, tend to vote for the same candidates (especially in delegate elections), forming a voting bloc which makes the result pretty foregone. I have just spent half an hour going through past elections in the archives to make sure i am not imagining this

I am not saying, Like St George, that this is necessarily a bad thing. It has made TNP stable and coup-free for quite some time. But it is still a form of oligarchy.
 
Conflating the necessity of establishing yourself with an oligarchy is, and I say this acknowledging my inexperience in TNP, a misinterpretation of the situation.

That being said, there's certainly a fine line between influence and control.

Furthermore, if there's an 'established' voting bloc which defines the result of elections, well, that's a ridiculously broad coalition which surely then represents the community as it stands.
 
North East Somerset:
Lord Ravenclaw:
I confess, I already knew. I've never found a reason to care - The West Pacific is capable of making its own decisions and I for one respect that. They have their way, and we, in the North, have ours. :tnp:
Click to expand...
A shame such enlightened thinking didn't prevail during the Balder situation last year. :P
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Balder abolished, at that time the only constitutional body capable of ratifying treaties - the very body which had ratified our treaty. The treaty with Osiris went the same way in 2013.

Although I would be amendable to a new treaty which incorporates the newer improved system of Balder and its greater democratic institutions. It was not then, and still isn't, personal.
 
flemingovia:
The reality is that we have not had an election where two of the established figures - those who might be considered part of the oligarchy - have stood against one another. This could, of course, be coincidence. But it is stretching credulity to breaking point to see it as such.

The reality is that most often these same players, when it matters, tend to vote for the same candidates (especially in delegate elections), forming a voting bloc which makes the result pretty foregone. I have just spent half an hour going through past elections in the archives to make sure i am not imagining this

I am not saying, Like St George, that this is necessarily a bad thing. It has made TNP stable and coup-free for quite some time. But it is still a form of oligarchy.
Click to expand...

So, last January, which was the oligarchy candidate and which was the outsider between McMasterdonia and myself?

Last May, between Tomb and myself?
 
Eluvatar:
flemingovia:
The reality is that we have not had an election where two of the established figures - those who might be considered part of the oligarchy - have stood against one another. This could, of course, be coincidence. But it is stretching credulity to breaking point to see it as such.

The reality is that most often these same players, when it matters, tend to vote for the same candidates (especially in delegate elections), forming a voting bloc which makes the result pretty foregone. I have just spent half an hour going through past elections in the archives to make sure i am not imagining this

I am not saying, Like St George, that this is necessarily a bad thing. It has made TNP stable and coup-free for quite some time. But it is still a form of oligarchy.
Click to expand...

So, last January, which was the oligarchy candidate and which was the outsider between McMasterdonia and myself?

Last May, between Tomb and myself?
Click to expand...
And, who was the "oligarchy candidate" between COE and I in the May Speaker election last year. I'm honestly just curious; I'm looking to mostly stay out of this.
 
tbqh, if all feeders were oligarchies, TNP is probably the least oligarchical. I think it's driven in mostly because the people in government are not doing it to gain and accumulate more power or enforce their personal agendas on the region; but they are going it to improve the region and make it a better place. ("It" being running and holding positions.)

That said, I do agree with Raven's sentiment. You don't want to go that divisive road, I've seen that happen three years ago. Unless of course, you want to emulate my old region.

"oligarchy... oligarchy"

*is reminded of bitter memories*
*walks away from thread*
 
Elu, RPI, I hate to break it to you guys, but.,...


Edit: I am happy to agree with Kyle. TNP is the least oligarchical of the oligarchies.
 
I'm just mentioning it because that is an instance where the "non-oligarchy" candidate won. I (and I guess you're saying Elu, too?) am one of the exceptions to your belief.
 
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