Adopt Flemingovianism!

mcmasterdonia

TNPer
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Note: Not all Flemingovianists are extremists, so don't be a bigot!

I was thinking that it would make sense if religions had more of an international feel to them within Erastide, just like they do in the real world. Would anyone be interested in adopting flemingovianism as their national religion? At the moment, I am working through adapting the flemingovian holy text into a national context (with Flemingovia's permission).
 

Myroria

TNPer
I would be happy to introduce Flemingovianism as the second-largest religion in Myroria, perhaps with accompanying sectarian tensions. I imagine as a nation formerly ruled by McMasterdonia there were large conversion efforts happening.

They probably also comprise a sizable and growing minority in Floresque. There, they might face similar problems as immigrants in other capitalist countries; lower wages, mistreatment, et cetera. At the very least, Floresque would probably make a path to citizenship relatively easy for them.
 

Vazos

TNPer
It doesn't really work within the culture or political systems I've set up for any religions other than Madrako and Diunu to gain much traction in Vazos or Quraf. By the same token, these religions probably would not take hold abroad (except maybe Diunu if there was enough contact with Quraf prior to the Conquest).
 
As you know, Imperium very much likes its Paxcism. :P

Flemingovianism is the only real minority religion, besides heretical Paxcism, in Imperium.
 

Esplandia

Factbook Addict
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Esplandia would be interested in adopting flemingovianism as its religion because I've never really been happy with the religion I have. I would love to have an overview of what the religion is about before I decide. And maybe Esplandia can be a heretical or reformist sect as well.
 

Syrixia

The one, the true, the great.
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History time!

Back in the colonial days, the Syrixian Empire hated the Kianese Empire and saw them as a rival. The Emperors of the time literally banned Flemingovianism due to this and had every Flemingovian in the nation deported or executed depending on their level of faith. Cultural Flemingovians were deported to Syrixian colonies to work as slaves, and devout Flemingovians were deported. It was a genocide; just 1 year after the ban was announced, over 5,000 Flemingovians were executed and 15,000 deported. The Emperors instituted a population boom edict to make up for this, ordering the populace to double how many kids they have. Eventually the population compensated for the losses and the ban was lifted, but Syrixians grew racist towards Flemingovians and any new Flemingovians who came to Syrixia were lynched. In the 1940s, the Emperor Akbar XI finally issued an apology for the Flemingovian Genocide, calling it an atrocity. Many older Syrixians are racist towards Flemingovians, however the young adults and children tend to be more sympathetic towards the government's freedom-of-religion-is-a-right stance, and embrace any Flemingovian that meets them like any normal person.

EDIT: Hey, if you did adopt Flemingovianism, Esp, perhaps that could be why Syrixia attacked you in the colonial times.
 

Esplandia

Factbook Addict
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Syrixia:
History time!

Back in the colonial days, the Syrixian Empire hated the Kianese Empire and saw them as a rival. The Emperors of the time literally banned Flemingovianism due to this and had every Flemingovian in the nation deported or executed depending on their level of faith. Cultural Flemingovians were deported to Syrixian colonies to work as slaves, and devout Flemingovians were deported. It was a genocide; just 1 year after the ban was announced, over 5,000 Flemingovians were executed and 15,000 deported. The Emperors instituted a population boom edict to make up for this, ordering the populace to double how many kids they have. Eventually the population compensated for the losses and the ban was lifted, but Syrixians grew racist towards Flemingovians and any new Flemingovians who came to Syrixia were lynched. In the 1940s, the Emperor Akbar XI finally issued an apology for the Flemingovian Genocide, calling it an atrocity. Many older Syrixians are racist towards Flemingovians, however the young adults and children tend to be more sympathetic towards the government's freedom-of-religion-is-a-right stance, and embrace any Flemingovian that meets them like any normal person.

EDIT: Hey, if you did adopt Flemingovianism, Esp, perhaps that could be why Syrixia attacked you in the colonial times.
Definately could be part of the reason for the invasion but definitely the reason for the ethnic cleansing. My reformation wouldn't take place until after the Syrixians were mostly driven out.
 

Yrkidding

TNPer
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Nowadays the TLE is fairly atheist, I think there would've been a spread of Flemingovianism during the long McM Empire era, so let's say Flemingovianism is the largest religion in TLE, making up a relatively small minority of the population.
 

Nightsong

Bookworm
Callaici, sure... maybe there could be a small group that follows Flemingovianism as the nation has no established religion: secularism... freedom of religion... all that fun stuff. Kalti and Tir na Andalucia on the other hand, no... it wouldn't work. Both passed mandates ages ago establishing Wicca as the official religion which still holds true to this day and has an adherence rate of 95% - 99% depending on what census is used for the info.
 

Kannex

TNPer
I'll have Flemingovianists as a sizable discriminated-against minority in Kannex, especially after Kannex accepted all those McM refugees. I'm planning some RPs with that in a few months, when I have more time.

Can you tell me more about Flemingovianism? Also, give me a shorthand name.
 

mcmasterdonia

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I'll point out here that there is an important difference between people being registered so to speak as part of one religion and actually practicing it. Even in highly atheist countries it is likely that citizens would have cultural ties and some legal ties to a religion of some kind. Nebula may be the exception to that because of how his government had worked for a long time.

@Kannex: no short name for it yet. Open to suggestions. I'll do that summary post later. I intend for it to include a number of values you would see in all major religions today, as well as many different stories about good triumphing over evil, love, redemption, and of course sin.
 

Yrkidding

TNPer
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mcmasterdonia:
I'll point out here that there is an important difference between people being registered so to speak as part of one religion and actually practicing it. Even in highly atheist countries it is likely that citizens would have cultural ties and some legal ties to a religion of some kind. Nebula may be the exception to that because of how his government had worked for a long time.

@Kannex: no short name for it yet. Open to suggestions. I'll do that summary post later. I intend for it to include a number of values you would see in all major religions today, as well as many different stories about good triumphing over evil, love, redemption, and of course sin.
Any idea on holidays? I imagine the TLE would probably have ended up with one or two holidays at least from what I imagine was significant flemingovian influence during the empire era.
 

Kannex

TNPer
Yrkidding:
mcmasterdonia:
I'll point out here that there is an important difference between people being registered so to speak as part of one religion and actually practicing it. Even in highly atheist countries it is likely that citizens would have cultural ties and some legal ties to a religion of some kind. Nebula may be the exception to that because of how his government had worked for a long time.

@Kannex: no short name for it yet. Open to suggestions. I'll do that summary post later. I intend for it to include a number of values you would see in all major religions today, as well as many different stories about good triumphing over evil, love, redemption, and of course sin.
Any idea on holidays? I imagine the TLE would probably have ended up with one or two holidays at least from what I imagine was significant flemingovian influence during the empire era.
I'm convinced you can't have a fun religion without some kind of Christmas-esque gift-giving lovefest.
 

mcmasterdonia

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Yrkidding:
mcmasterdonia:
I'll point out here that there is an important difference between people being registered so to speak as part of one religion and actually practicing it. Even in highly atheist countries it is likely that citizens would have cultural ties and some legal ties to a religion of some kind. Nebula may be the exception to that because of how his government had worked for a long time.

@Kannex: no short name for it yet. Open to suggestions. I'll do that summary post later. I intend for it to include a number of values you would see in all major religions today, as well as many different stories about good triumphing over evil, love, redemption, and of course sin.
Any idea on holidays? I imagine the TLE would probably have ended up with one or two holidays at least from what I imagine was significant flemingovian influence during the empire era.
I am thinking that we will have a number of feast days that will be important. There will also be a period of fasting, in order to remember the suffering of the people at the hands of Zahhkan (in the scripture, still to be added in great detail).

Kannex:
Flemism, Flemingism, Flemity, the Fleming.
Flemism is probably the easiest, but I find flemity appealing too.

Kannex:
Yrkidding:
mcmasterdonia:
I'll point out here that there is an important difference between people being registered so to speak as part of one religion and actually practicing it. Even in highly atheist countries it is likely that citizens would have cultural ties and some legal ties to a religion of some kind. Nebula may be the exception to that because of how his government had worked for a long time.

@Kannex: no short name for it yet. Open to suggestions. I'll do that summary post later. I intend for it to include a number of values you would see in all major religions today, as well as many different stories about good triumphing over evil, love, redemption, and of course sin.
Any idea on holidays? I imagine the TLE would probably have ended up with one or two holidays at least from what I imagine was significant flemingovian influence during the empire era.
I'm convinced you can't have a fun religion without some kind of Christmas-esque gift-giving lovefest.
I'd agree. I was thinking something longer than a day, like perhaps a two week long gift giving holiday. With different days focusing on different types of gifts. Needs to be brainstormed more.
 

Kannex

TNPer
Two weeks would wreck your economy. :P

You could perhaps find inspiration in the 20-day Chinese New Year.
 

mcmasterdonia

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Economy is already wrecked at this point. I don't exactly mean expensive gifts. For instance, one day could simply be giving fruit... providing charity to the needy... giving the gift of life (seeds, plants, flowers, etc). Giving a gift to the community through community work. This inspiration comes from the way some Indonesian communities celebrate the end of Ramadan, with the whole community coming together and celebrating/exchanging all sorts of great but simple gifts over a number of days.
 

Xentherida

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While we're largely atheist, we could have a minority of Flemingovianism. Not the largest minority, but in the top 5 minorities, in terms of religion.
 

Kannex

TNPer
mcmasterdonia:
Economy is already wrecked at this point. I don't exactly mean expensive gifts. For instance, one day could simply be giving fruit... providing charity to the needy... giving the gift of life (seeds, plants, flowers, etc). Giving a gift to the community through community work. This inspiration comes from the way some Indonesian communities celebrate the end of Ramadan, with the whole community coming together and celebrating/exchanging all sorts of great but simple gifts over a number of days.
No, expensive gifts would actually help the economy. I meant if you had a continuous, two-week off-from-work holiday, your economy would be in the gutters. China and Japan have their "Golden Weeks," though.
 

Yrkidding

TNPer
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Kannex:
I meant if you had a continuous, two-week off-from-work holiday, your economy would be in the gutters. China and Japan have their "Golden Weeks," though.
Yea, I can understand a period but it certainly wouldn't be a statutory holiday of that length.
 

plembobria

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Hmmm. Can I register my annoyance at "mostly-atheist" countries? Generally speaking, most people like, and gain something from religion. I think it's rather unrealistic to have a mostly atheist nation. This is distinct of course from a secular nation.

Mostly, people like having some kind of identity, and that includes religion. If you want to say "well that doesn't happen in my nation 'cause everyone's smart and doesn't need pointless fulfillment from religion." That's also unrealistic. Most people follow groups. It's a sociological fact.
 

Kannex

TNPer
plembobria:
Hmmm. Can I register my annoyance at "mostly-atheist" countries? Generally speaking, most people like, and gain something from religion. I think it's rather unrealistic to have a mostly atheist nation. This is distinct of course from a secular nation.

Mostly, people like having some kind of identity, and that includes religion. If you want to say "well that doesn't happen in my nation 'cause everyone's smart and doesn't need pointless fulfillment from religion." That's also unrealistic. Most people follow groups. It's a sociological fact.
Scandinavia's doing pretty well. Certainly they've had a Christian identity, but that's becoming marginalized and you could well say the same for those mostly-atheist countries here in TNP.
 

mcmasterdonia

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plembobria:
Hmmm. Can I register my annoyance at "mostly-atheist" countries? Generally speaking, most people like, and gain something from religion. I think it's rather unrealistic to have a mostly atheist nation. This is distinct of course from a secular nation.

Mostly, people like having some kind of identity, and that includes religion. If you want to say "well that doesn't happen in my nation 'cause everyone's smart and doesn't need pointless fulfillment from religion." That's also unrealistic. Most people follow groups. It's a sociological fact.
Yeah, I tried to make that point earlier but sorta failed. So tired.

But agreed 100%
 

Vazos

TNPer
I concur with Plem and McM. There has to be some sort of religious history in these mostly atheist countries (except maybe Nebula).
 

Xentherida

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plembobria:
Hmmm. Can I register my annoyance at "mostly-atheist" countries? Generally speaking, most people like, and gain something from religion. I think it's rather unrealistic to have a mostly atheist nation. This is distinct of course from a secular nation.

Mostly, people like having some kind of identity, and that includes religion. If you want to say "well that doesn't happen in my nation 'cause everyone's smart and doesn't need pointless fulfillment from religion." That's also unrealistic. Most people follow groups. It's a sociological fact.
That's where patriotism came in; early Xentherida was highly patriotic (but in a different sense; we weren't foreigner haters), which itself lead to the Despotoan Age (people were "brainwashed" (psychologically influenced) to become patriotic, and believe that the "new" Xentherida, which was Despotoa, was the best way forwards and that other nations' aspects were "bad". That's why, as Xentherida kept its parliament for a few months in the slow transition to a totalitarianism, it changed its national language to Old Xentheridan (Swedish)).

Our identity nowadays comes from patriotism, yet is a more subtle sense. We now fiercely defend our nation from threats, and love our rulers (although if they turn out to be bad they're usually ousted from power; Xentheridans are socially able to recognise someone lying, but then lie to other nations), who reinforce this by not showing off, by being "casual" and "people's people" (they don't flaunt their wealth (which is earned legitimately) and they focus on public relations). This is ironic, however, as we are commited to co-operation with other nations; this was actually a subliminal attempt to lower patriotism and focus on other nations.

Because of the prevalence of patriotism, religion really wasn't a large aspect of life. While we did make our own (back in the tribal years), they weren't exactly highlighted with importance. When other religions were introduced, it did displace the tribal religions, but didn't really make a dent in the patriotism figures. Sure, a lot of people turned from patriotism to religion, but this was a minute fraction of people.
 

Piscivore

TNPer
plembobria:
Hmmm. Can I register my annoyance at "mostly-atheist" countries? Generally speaking, most people like, and gain something from religion. I think it's rather unrealistic to have a mostly atheist nation. This is distinct of course from a secular nation.

Mostly, people like having some kind of identity, and that includes religion. If you want to say "well that doesn't happen in my nation 'cause everyone's smart and doesn't need pointless fulfillment from religion." That's also unrealistic. Most people follow groups. It's a sociological fact.
While this is true, satisfaction of the emotional needs you speak of do not require a deity, and many atheists (myself included) live perfectly satisfactory lives without it. In Sadakoyama, those needs are met in a variety of ways, one of the most important being the family-of-choice bonds formed with one's karass. We do have what I am calling Sojunism (after Ikkyu Sojun, look him up) which is a mix of Zen Buddhism, Taoism, Discordianism, and Bokononism. It is deeply philosophical and directly addresses emotional needs, but is completely atheistic.

Many immigrants bring their religious beliefs with them, but because of our selection process few of those have deeply held beliefs. For many, those beliefs fade into cultural trappings during their educational process. Others adapt to Sojunism or simply lose interest in religion. Those that retain their beliefs are tolerated, as long as the practice of such does not become hostile or deliberately disruptive.
 

plembobria

TNPer
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Xentherida:
That's where patriotism came in; early Xentherida was highly patriotic (but in a different sense; we weren't foreigner haters), which itself lead to the Despotoan Age (people were "brainwashed" (psychologically influenced) to become patriotic, and believe that the "new" Xentherida, which was Despotoa, was the best way forwards and that other nations' aspects were "bad". That's why, as Xentherida kept its parliament for a few months in the slow transition to a totalitarianism, it changed its national language to Old Xentheridan (Swedish)).
In most similiar situations IRL, most people either merge their religion with patriotism (or nation chose $DIETY and therefore we must defend this holy nation!, or ascribe divine power to their rulers.
 

Piscivore

TNPer
Vazos:
I concur with Plem and McM. There has to be some sort of religious history in these mostly atheist countries (except maybe Nebula).
Our ancestors fled from persecution by religious extremists that took over the distant land of their origins.
 

Vazos

TNPer
I've been thinking about what I said earlier in this thread, and I may have been mistaken.

When Vazos invaded Quraf in 1815, the Qurafi would have known that if they lost the war, they would be enslaved. It stands to reason, then, that there would be a Qurafi diaspora of sorts as those who were able fled the country. They would have brought Diunu with them. I just have to figure out where they would have fled to.

ETA: Plembobria has confirmed on IRC that the Qurafi refugees could have gone there. We can plan on a small Qurafi Diunu minority. It's not a proselytizing religion, so it's unlikely that their numbers would grow significantly outside their ethnic group.
 

Wolfsea

TNPer
Wolfsea accepts all religions but Marledi has survived because it's an intrinsic part of the national identity and culture. Flemingovians are welcome but you'll have virtually zero luck in converting any wolvesh.
 

SillyString

TNPer
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Kannex:
Scandinavia's doing pretty well. Certainly they've had a Christian identity, but that's becoming marginalized and you could well say the same for those mostly-atheist countries here in TNP.
You mean like Sweden, which until 2000 had a mandatory tithe to the Church of Sweden, and now collects a mandatory tithe but lets the taxpayer select which religion their "donation" goes to?

Or like Denmark or Finland, where all members of the state church are tithed, and where everyone is assumed to be a member of the church unless they choose to opt out?

Yeah, tell me more about how they're either atheist or secular... :eyebrow:
 

Kannex

TNPer
SillyString:
Kannex:
Scandinavia's doing pretty well. Certainly they've had a Christian identity, but that's becoming marginalized and you could well say the same for those mostly-atheist countries here in TNP.
You mean like Sweden, which until 2000 had a mandatory tithe to the Church of Sweden, and now collects a mandatory tithe but lets the taxpayer select which religion their "donation" goes to?

Or like Denmark or Finland, where all members of the state church are tithed, and where everyone is assumed to be a member of the church unless they choose to opt out?

Yeah, tell me more about how they're either atheist or secular... :eyebrow:
Strawman argument. Surely you don't need to be reminded that irreligion is growing in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark as well as in the UK. Organized religion is rapidly being marginalized.
 

SillyString

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It's hardly a strawman. Whatever the personal beliefs of their citizens, the nations themselves continue to have state religions and continue to enforce monetary laws based around those religions. Claiming that any of them are a bastion for secularity, agnosticism, or atheism is fundamentally flawed as long as those laws and religions remain in place.
 
SillyString:
Kannex:
Scandinavia's doing pretty well. Certainly they've had a Christian identity, but that's becoming marginalized and you could well say the same for those mostly-atheist countries here in TNP.
You mean like Sweden, which until 2000 had a mandatory tithe to the Church of Sweden, and now collects a mandatory tithe but lets the taxpayer select which religion their "donation" goes to?

Or like Denmark or Finland, where all members of the state church are tithed, and where everyone is assumed to be a member of the church unless they choose to opt out?

Yeah, tell me more about how they're either atheist or secular... :eyebrow:
To be fair Sweden hasn't had a mandatory kyrkoavgift since 2000, but if you're a registered member of the Church of Sweden it's automatically added to your taxes.
 

Kannex

TNPer
SillyString:
It's hardly a strawman. Whatever the personal beliefs of their citizens, the nations themselves continue to have state religions and continue to enforce monetary laws based around those religions. Claiming that any of them are a bastion for secularity, agnosticism, or atheism is fundamentally flawed as long as those laws and religions remain in place.
We were speaking about whether it's likely that a populace in general eschew religion, and Scandinavia shows regardless of government policies that it is. It's not such a stretch to imagine populations that don't give a rat's ass about God; if players RP such l don't see what the problem is.

Besides, religion isn't the only thing that can be used to delude the masses. Political ideologies work quite well.
 
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