Ceci n'est ce pas une proposition

Lennart

Lennart

TNPer
So I know that TNP's flag has a long history and predates many real world flags, so it's just crazy to think about changing it. But I'm a fan of heraldry, ale, simplicity and paint.net.

I drank some Abbot and made a new version of TNP's coat of arms, and in fact I have it now in my signature.

zxk2so.png

Now I've got five questions:

1) do you like it?
2) Am I even entitled to have it in my signature? it's not even the official thing, so I guess I am.
3) Could I fly it as a puppet flag in-game (in a different region)? The official one could only be used by Government Staff IIRC.

Wait, those are just three questions.

Cheers

edit: this is the "final version" I'll be using privately:
1zvtjbc.jpg
 
I think if this were to be accepted, here's a suggestion: Add a rum barrel somewhere on the shield; since: 1) Rum is synonymous with TNP, and for good reason, XD. And 2) It will help fill in the empty space left by the red in the top of the shield.
 
It's not the actual flag, so yes. You're fine.
 
1) I do! It resembles a ship's wheel to me but maybe that's 'coz I just read about ships and boats the whole day!
2)I've noooo idea
3)ummm....maybe....but you should take a second opinion on this!
 
Even though the flag will not change, I personally prefer this. It seems more modern and clean whilst staying true to the old design.
 
I love this. :)

If we were discussing changing the TNP flag I'd say I'm not sure about the red, but I do love the design!
 
Meh I would've preffered dis doe
GRpEMkv.png

Syrixia:
I think if this were to be accepted, here's a suggestion: Add a rum barrel somewhere on the shield; since: 1) Rum is synonymous with TNP, and for good reason, XD. And 2) It will help fill in the empty space left by the red in the top of the shield.
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Doesn't really work tho

EqnWdeA.png
 
I think the castle plays the function of both a castle and a crown. I thought it was a crown at first. Maybe that was intentional, or maybe not.
 
2qkkoyc.png

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Gus:
I think the castle plays the function of both a castle and a crown. I thought it was a crown at first. Maybe that was intentional, or maybe not.
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Intentional, but it was a mural crown anyway, so it's also a crown in the original design.
 
Sytarenne:
Meh I would've preffered dis doe
GRpEMkv.png

Syrixia:
I think if this were to be accepted, here's a suggestion: Add a rum barrel somewhere on the shield; since: 1) Rum is synonymous with TNP, and for good reason, XD. And 2) It will help fill in the empty space left by the red in the top of the shield.
Click to expand...

Doesn't really work tho

EqnWdeA.png
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Your NPO joke: No. Just no. It's not funny anymore. Now it's annoying and a bit worrying. Stop.

Your Rum Barrel Shield: That's because you: 1) Placed it off center, and 2) Used CLIP ART.
 
Hey, so wait: If you want the coat of arms to change, and say, for inquiry purposes, it does change, wouldn't we have to change the one on the flag too?

And if we're gonna change the CoA on the flag, wouldn't a change of the way the stripes are presented be cool? We could use Sytarenne's UK-like design, or maybe we could flip the tricolor and make it like Germany's and Russia's kind of tricolor, with stripes in rows.
 
Syrixia:
Hey, so wait: If you want the coat of arms to change, and say, for inquiry purposes, it does change, wouldn't we have to change the one on the flag too?

And if we're gonna change the CoA on the flag, wouldn't a change of the way the stripes are presented be cool? We could use Sytarenne's UK-like design, or maybe we could flip the tricolor and make it like Germany's and Russia's kind of tricolor, with stripes in rows.
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I wouldn't support any major changes, especially not on the flag stripes or colours. I'm not even 100% sure I would vote for my own changes, because you know, this is a TRADITION! .... Even though modernising an emblem is a common practice in civil and institutional heraldry on the real world, anyway.


edit: this design is, let's say, how I see TNP. I'm thinking of using it as a symbol of my allegiance to the region on my factbooks, that's actually why I re-made it, 'cause I needed something "TNP looking", but more heraldry-friendly.
 
Thanks for the comments, and especially for the kind words.

As Raven said, I guess there's no legal impediment to the private use of something that's not official, so I'm using it now as the flag for my NS nation Alexandria. If I'm wrong and there is in fact any problem about this, just let me know.
 
The Legal Code only covers official flags and images as detailed in that aspect of the law, if memory serves. I can double check if necessary.

As said, you're fine... as long as you don't try to pass it off as the official seal as that could end badly.
 
You'd most likely be charged with Fraud, so I wouldn't recommend that course of action.
 
You might have checked the LC but anyway, here is the relevant section:

LC:
Section 8.1: Arms, Flag, and Seal
2. The following arms as designed by ThelDRan and revised by Eluvatar and Gulliver is adopted as the coat of arms of the North Pacific:
3. Each institution in the North Pacific's government may establish for itself a seal which uses the arms of the North Pacific.
4. The arms of the North Pacific may not be used except to represent the North Pacific or an official regional entity.
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The images you created are indeed different than the original, but not by much (just edited). A previous Court has ruled on this here. I won't comment on the quality of that ruling, or the legality of this issue. Hopefully, the info I've quoted will help you in that regard.

Personally, I think it's close enough to the original to cause unnecessary confusion.
 
Confusion it may cause, but unless you are attempting to deliberately mislead citizens or otherwise into believing they are the official arms and that you have the authority to use said official arms, I see nothing wrong. Confusion is to be expected on the internet.
 
plembobria:
Sorry, Lenny, I like the Arms how they are.
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:agree:

I like the colours the way they are already.I could live with the castle change, but I also like the little un green leaves, and the yellow border around the central colours that are on the original (Hope that makes sense)!
 
mcmasterdonia:
plembobria:
Sorry, Lenny, I like the Arms how they are.
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:agree:

I like the colours the way they are already.I could live with the castle change, but I also like the little un green leaves, and the yellow border around the central colours that are on the original (Hope that makes sense)!
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Yeah, I take it you like the heraldic oddities and violations (an irregularly shaped escutcheon pasted on a plain traditional one, two different azure tinctures, and a single charge in base, and on waves... All of them very unlikely in traditional heraldry for a series of reasons).

I sort of like them too, to be honest, or maybe I'm so used to them I can't tell any more... Like some sort of heraldic Stockholm syndrome.

At some point I actually thought of turning this into a proposal, but I'm not 100% convinced the changes are better than the TRADITION! so I'll stop here.

edit: this is the "final version" I'll be using privately:
28aj4o9.png
 
With respect to the design itself, I commented in another recent thread (which right now I can't seem to find) that I would support a retouche of the Coat of Arms that simplified the design. Lennart's design is in that direction.

I like that the laurel was removed (in fact, that's the one change I recall mentioning explicitly in that previous post of mine). I also like that the oddly-shaped yellow/gold layer inside the shield was removed - I never understood what the complex shapes at the top and bottom part of that layer are, and I always thought they looked rather ugly.

However, the color pattern in the shield in Lennart's design isn't working for me. I think the red layer is disproportionately large. This impression is made worse by the fact that the red layer is at the top part of the shield, which has a larger area. It may be better to add another blue wavy stripe before the red field begins.

I like the "crown" (I know it's not an actual crown) in the official design better, though not by much. It may just be that I'm used to the official design.

Another simplification I would suggest, in both the current and Lennart's designs, is with respect to the cross/star at the background. Those circles at the cross/star's endpoints make me thing of cartoon depictions of frogs. I would simply remove them.

EDIT: Here is the post of mine I referenced earlier. The entire thread has a nice discussion about redesigning the regional coat of arms, flags, and seals.
 
Very Interesting r3n, let me tell you my opinion on this.

First off I quote myself when I said that the current shield has:

heraldic oddities and violations (an irregularly shaped escutcheon pasted on a plain traditional one [that's the yellow/golden thing], two different azure tinctures, and a single charge in base [that's the laurel], and on waves... All of them very unlikely in traditional heraldry for a series of reasons).
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Heraldry doesn't normally let you do those things because the result is difficult to "read", is like using bad orthography when you are writing.

Now the rest of your suggestions:
However, the color pattern in the shield in Lennart's design isn't working for me. I think the red layer is disproportionately large. This impression is made worse by the fact that the red layer is at the top part of the shield, which has a larger area. It may be better to add another blue wavy stripe before the red field begins.
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Funny fact: the wavy area (white and blue) is actually larger than the red one.

The Field is divided in two parts similar in size, and adding another blue wavy stripe (just like the original has) is again a lesser rule breaker, especially because it would get in contact with the red above, and contrast wouldn't be so sharp, that's why you put colours on metals or vice versa but no colours on colours or metals on metals.

In particular colour blind people have problems to "read" a coat of arms or flag when rules of tincture don't apply.

The red part?, the usual practice in heraldry would be to put an emblem (in this case it would be a metal, gold or silver, emblem) but the original is empty and it creates kind of a nice contrast with white and blue colours of the flag. With a metal emblem on it, it wouldn't look so big, it would look more "balanced" if that makes sense.

Now the background, that frog-cross you mention, it's also not my favourite feature. For some reason they chose the Coat of Arms of Arévalo (a village lost somewhere in Spain) as an inspiration. (edit: did the research, and it's supposed to be a compass rose, which is kind of appropriate for TNP) But I kept the whole thing because I didn't want to create something so different from what we've got.

If I had to make a new design from scratch I would do many other different things, the result would probably look nothing like the official one... But at the end of the day I was looking for a flag that represents the region and not only my taste. I was trying to compromise between good heraldry and TRADITION!... Although I would accept the idea of doing something completely different if you want me to.

Thanks for your comment r3n! hope you're doing alright
 
Two more versions (I can't just help myself, sorry for 2posting):

One with more waves:
ncf607.png
One with the North Star!:
30tqw3q.png

2ajdqvm.jpg


1zvtjbc.png

I think I'm using the last one, privately. Let's see what it looks like in-game for my Nation Alexandria and my region Logres...
 
I love the North Star one. That needs to be our Coat of Arms.

My idea for slightly changing the flag is still out there, btw. This crest would look great on a "German-style rowwed stripe" tricolor.
 
So here you've got them side by side:

34iskea.png

I might set up a poll soon to ask if I should formally propose the North Star flag and the North Star Emblem as new symbols of TNP. If I find fierce opposition, e. g. many votes against it, then I just wouldn't do it. Also, I would gladly give the region and our government all rights and privileges over its use.

I also would love to know what Elu and other old-timers (FEC, Roman, GBM, Flemingovia, Grosses, etc) think about this. I assume they're not interested or active.
 
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