The Pacific requests a new Embassy

Pierconium

Pierconium

TNPer
Name of your region: The Pacific
Link to your region's forums: ns.npowned.net
Head of Government: Pierconium
Head of State: Pierconium
Minister for Foreign Affairs (or equivalent): Elegarth
Short description of your region: The Pacific is the first region created within Nation States. It is a feeder with ~6000 nations.
Will your region post regular Foreign Updates:Yes, we intend to be very active in Foreign Affairs.

I am well aware of the reasons that our prior Embassy was closed. The primary instigators of that event have been removed from government and the New Pacific Order is dedicated to the advancement of the sovereignty and strength of GCRs within Nation States. I can state personally that The Pacific has no plans, and will make no plans, to subvert the authority of another GCR outside of normal diplomatic relations.
 
Thank you for your request. I will discuss the matter with the Executive Council.

-LR
 
My apologies for the delay. The Executive Council has been unable to come to a definite conclusion on your application at this time. With your agreement, we will defer until elections have concluded and a new Delegate has the ability to decide on the outstanding matter.
 
It absolutely should. The NPO is under new management. It would be only fair if we gave this new management a chance.
 
Syrixia:
It absolutely should. The NPO is under new management. It would be only fair if we gave this new management a chance.
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No, the NPO isn't under 'new management'. Krull's still in the Senate and is likely to exert influence over the new Emperor.
 
Says the conspiracy theorist. Tin hats, tin hats, get yer tin hats here!

Calm down, man! Give Pier a chance. Hell, Krull moved his nation HERE. If he's in the senate still, he's bound to be inactive.
 
Syrixia:
Says the conspiracy theorist. Tin hats, tin hats, get yer tin hats here!

Calm down, man! Give Pier a chance. Hell, Krull moved his nation HERE. If he's in the senate still, he's bound to be inactive.
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I am no friend to tyrants and I wish the North Pacific was the same.
 
Thank you Gradea. Your feelings have been noted.

Conversely, your attitude towards the Delegate of The East Pacific recently was also noted. How goes the plan to coup The Pacific by the way?
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Conversely, your attitude towards the Delegate of The East Pacific recently was also noted. How goes the plan to coup The Pacific by the way?
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:rofl:
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Thank you Gradea. Your feelings have been noted.

Conversely, your attitude towards the Delegate of The East Pacific recently was also noted. How goes the plan to coup The Pacific by the way?
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I only asked on the RMB of the East Pacific why they were opening embassies with the Pacific.
 
Using your TNP nation, which caused me to receive a message from said Delegate asking whether The North Pacific had any concerns about it. I'm also fairly sure you got banned from their RMB for your trouble.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Using your TNP nation, which caused me to receive a message from said Delegate asking whether The North Pacific had any concerns about it. I'm also fairly sure you got banned from their RMB for your trouble.
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Oh really.

I haven't checked my TNP nation since Sunday so I was unaware of that. If this is the stance the Delegate of the East Pacific will take for banning nations who dare to speak up, then it is very sorrwoful indeed.
 
Actually, in this case your reputation preceded you. I'm afraid that he takes a very dim view of anyone who goes around shouting about subverting the legal governments of other feeders.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Actually, in this case your reputation preceded you. I'm afraid that he takes a very dim view of anyone who goes around shouting about subverting the legal governments of other feeders.
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How does the New Pacific Order count as the legal government of the Pacific? Their rule is about as legitmate as Joseph Stalin's over the USSR.
 
Gradea:
Lord Ravenclaw:
Actually, in this case your reputation preceded you. I'm afraid that he takes a very dim view of anyone who goes around shouting about subverting the legal governments of other feeders.
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How does the New Pacific Order count as the legal government of the Pacific? Their rule is about as legitmate as Joseph Stalin's over the USSR.
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I don't see how you can compare the reign of a tyrant who slaughtered millions of people to the rule of a fictional entity in a text based browser game.
 
Not only that but the NPO has ruled the pacific for more than a decade, there is no other body in the Pacific that has any say in it's governance. It is the only government and it is their legitimate government.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
My apologies for the delay. The Executive Council has been unable to come to a definite conclusion on your application at this time. With your agreement, we will defer until elections have concluded and a new Delegate has the ability to decide on the outstanding matter.
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I understand. I do not expect an easy path, and certainly am not seeking a treaty or any sort of obligation from the north, but I thought it might be good to at least reopen the lines of communication.

Perhaps the next government will be more understanding and not let certain outdated concepts, as have been expressed herein, unduly influence their decision.
 
Gradea:
Lord Ravenclaw:
Actually, in this case your reputation preceded you. I'm afraid that he takes a very dim view of anyone who goes around shouting about subverting the legal governments of other feeders.
Click to expand...
How does the New Pacific Order count as the legal government of the Pacific? Their rule is about as legitmate as Joseph Stalin's over the USSR.
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Legitimacy isn't an issue that Stalin's rule ever encountered. He was selected by the relevant and recognised authorities as the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and as the Chairman of the Council of Ministers, making him the head of state of the USSR, and thus the legitimate ruler of that entity.

Similarly, the NPO is the sole legitimate governing entity of the Pacific, indicated both by its longevity and its native support. All your attention whoring efforts to somehow present yourself as a hero fighting against oppression and for freedom do is expose you as a wannabe-seditionist.

You're not a Che fighting against evil forces of tyranny, you're the teenager in Nebraska looking up how to make napalm because you think it'll help you to 'smash the state' and 'stick it to the man'.
 
Hello TNP,

As Senator of FA of TP, please let me know if there are any concerns or follow up required to this once there is a new delegate. You can reach me through any of my nations (I only use public puppets, but for completion's sake: Elegarth, The Seeker of Power, Anarth the Journalist, Deslim the Recruiter, etc) or via PM here or TP forums.

I want to thank you in advanced for your time, regardless of the decision. Cheers.
 
Were it that simple.

This is now a matter for the next delegate and their minister of foreign affairs to decide.
 
I'd like to inquire, as Senator of FA of TP, if this is will be discussed by the current government or if we need to make a new request?
Thanks and my apologies if this is already being discussed.
 
I would note that The Pacific remains the only condemned Feeder or Sinker for its disregard for and violations of the sovereignty of its fellow Feeders and Sinkers, that it was condemned by 91% of the WA Security Council's voters at the time (including the Delegate of The North Pacific), and that besides its coup d'etat against Lazarus its condemnation includes its past disregard for and violations of our own region's sovereignty as well as our ally's, The South Pacific. I think we need to ask ourselves how exactly we would benefit from diplomatic relations with a regime with which we have never had much in common and that is far more likely to overthrow us or our allies than to support and defend.

Arguments over the NPO's legitimacy to govern The Pacific are irrelevant. It's not necessary to view the NPO as an illegitimate government in order to oppose this embassy. So, for the record, as a citizen of The North Pacific and in light of the NPO's repeated and flagrant disregard for the sovereignty of other Feeders and Sinkers throughout its history -- including its very recent history, in Lazarus -- I oppose extending to them any diplomatic recognition or relations. The NPO should remain diplomatically isolated for its long litany of crimes against its fellow Feeders and Sinkers. The idea that there has been any substantive change in how the NPO will deal with its fellow Feeders and Sinkers with Pierconium, of all people, as Emperor, and with Krulltopia still on the Senate despite presiding over the NPO as Emperor during its coups against The South Pacific and Lazarus, is laughable. The NPO has not changed and there is no reason to extend any recognition or relations to the NPO.

I hope the Delegate's Government will take my views into account, though I would be very surprised if this embassy request is even under serious consideration.
 
Thank you for your inquiry, Elegarth. Currently this matter is still under discussion by the Cabinet; there are a number of things we must take into consideration when discussing The Pacific's request, which is one reason why it has taken some time to get back to you. The Foreign Ministry will gladly notify the Foreign Affairs department of The Pacific when we have made a decision either way, and thank you again for your patience.

Thank you for posting your opinions on this issue as well, Cormac. Public input is one factor the Cabinet takes into account in all our decisionmaking, and the more input we have the better we can serve The North Pacific!
 
To the Cabinet,

Any authortarian or undemocratic regime, UCR or GCR, should find no friends in The North Pacific as we are one of the most democratic and free regions in NationStates.

The Pacific (as shown in the recent Lazarus coup) have no respect for any region other than themselves and the North Pacific will have no benefits in establishing formal, diplomatic relationships with the Pacific.

I hereby plead that the Cabinet acts in the North Pacific's best interests by denying this embassy application.

Gradea Sanguine
Proud Citizen of the North Pacific
 
If we remain so fickle we will practically become a closed, democracies-only community. It is in the interest of understanding, soldarity and friendship between all peoples that I announce my approval of any relations with the New Pacific Order. We must get to know people of all ideologies in order to truly understand the vast world that is NationStates. Those who beg to deny relations with governments of other ideologies, no offense, are ignorant. And no, Gradea, I'm not talking about just you. There are many. And they need to know only through understanding and the burial of the hatchet shall there be progress. One could compare it to the Federation and the Klingon Empire in Star Trek: TNG. Their alliance was uneasy, and they were very different peoples, but the alliance mutually benefitted both races. I think you guys can see where I'm coming from. Reopening relations with the NPO is the first step towards a brighter future for the feederite populace.
 
Syrixia:
If we remain so fickle we will practically become a closed, democracies-only community. It is in the interest of understanding, soldarity and friendship between all peoples that I announce my approval of any relations with the New Pacific Order. We must get to know people of all ideologies in order to truly understand the vast world that is NationStates. Those who beg to deny relations with governments of other ideologies, no offense, are ignorant. And no, Gradea, I'm not talking about just you. There are many. And they need to know only through understanding and the burial of the hatchet shall there be progress. One could compare it to the Federation and the Klingon Empire in Star Trek: TNG. Their alliance was uneasy, and they were very different peoples, but the alliance mutually benefitted both races. I think you guys can see where I'm coming from. Reopening relations with the NPO is the first step towards a brighter future for the feederite populace.
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I'm not going to get into a prolonged debate about this in the NPO's embassy request thread, but I did just want to point out that this isn't about ideology for all of us (though it may be a factor for some). I don't personally approve of the NPO's autocratic government, but I don't think autocratic government by itself is automatically an impediment to diplomatic relations between The North Pacific and another region.

What should be an automatic impediment is a long history of perpetrating and supporting coups d'etat against other Feeders and Sinkers, including this one -- albeit a long time ago -- as well as one of our treaty allies as recently as 2013, and a non-allied but still friendly Sinker (Lazarus) just a few months ago. Aside from changing from one Emperor who presided over the NPO during those coups to an Emperor who has no problem with coups either, who was in fact responsible for prolonging a coup here in TNP, there have been no changes in the NPO that would give us any reason to believe the regime is any better than it was when we severed relations.
 
Like Cormac said, I don't think the democratic nature of a government should necessarily be a factor. It is also worth pointing out that there are varying levels of democracy in a game such as NationStates. Not everyone is on a level playing field with democratic government, and many regions are completely happy being that way!

If we insist that all regions we have relations with have a 'democratically' elected Delegate to run the government, then we close the doors to so many regions of quite different themes to ours. That is a very narrow mentality and will not create a diverse array of regional relationships. We should accept regions are different to ours.

If we reject or approve this Embassy request, I do not think that the non-democratic nature of their government will be a consideration. We have relations with other non-democratic regions. Welcome to NationStates.
 
Myroria:
Thank you for your inquiry, Elegarth. Currently this matter is still under discussion by the Cabinet; there are a number of things we must take into consideration when discussing The Pacific's request, which is one reason why it has taken some time to get back to you. The Foreign Ministry will gladly notify the Foreign Affairs department of The Pacific when we have made a decision either way, and thank you again for your patience.

Thank you for posting your opinions on this issue as well, Cormac. Public input is one factor the Cabinet takes into account in all our decisionmaking, and the more input we have the better we can serve The North Pacific!
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Thank you Myroria, for your explanation. We will wait your decision.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Like Cormac said, I don't think the democratic nature of a government should necessarily be a factor. It is also worth pointing out that there are varying levels of democracy in a game such as NationStates. Not everyone is on a level playing field with democratic government, and many regions are completely happy being that way!

If we insist that all regions we have relations with have a 'democratically' elected Delegate to run the government, then we close the doors to so many regions of quite different themes to ours. That is a very narrow mentality and will not create a diverse array of regional relationships. We should accept regions are different to ours.

If we reject or approve this Embassy request, I do not think that the non-democratic nature of their government will be a consideration. We have relations with other non-democratic regions. Welcome to NationStates.
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ExACTLY! :clap:
 
As someone that was involved in 'a prolonged coup of TNP' a very long time ago who has since been a long term contributor to this community, I support the idea of readdressing relations with The Pacific.

The realpolitik of the situation is that the NPO is not isolated. They do have diplomatic relations with other GCRs and have already made strides to repair relations with our allies in the East and have likely started talks with others as well. If we allow pettiness to cloud our judgment then we aren't doing anything to 'hurt' The Pacific, we are just being petty.

That said, it has been my understanding that nearly all diplomatic interactions with Pierconium from all corners have been positive, including a recent cooperative position between the NPO and TNP on the state of the West. This seems to contradict much of what has been stated above.

I also have it on good authority that the Delegate of The Pacific has reached out to our Delegate and others in order to address past wrongs and is willing to publish public statements to that effect once certain issues are clarified for him from our end.
 
Gracius Maximus:
As someone that was involved in 'a prolonged coup of TNP' a very long time ago who has since been a long term contributor to this community, I support the idea of readdressing relations with The Pacific.

The realpolitik of the situation is that the NPO is not isolated. They do have diplomatic relations with other GCRs and have already made strides to repair relations with our allies in the East and have likely started talks with others as well. If we allow pettiness to cloud our judgment then we aren't doing anything to 'hurt' The Pacific, we are just being petty.

That said, it has been my understanding that nearly all diplomatic interactions with Pierconium from all corners have been positive, including a recent cooperative position between the NPO and TNP on the state of the West. This seems to contradict much of what has been stated above.

I also have it on good authority that the Delegate of The Pacific has reached out to our Delegate and others in order to address past wrongs and is willing to publish public statements to that effect once certain issues are clarified for him from our end.
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How many years have passed since you couped TNP? How many months have passed since the NPO couped Lazarus and disrespected its sovereignty along with that of other regions?

Yeah... there seems to be a difference there.

~ Tomb
 
Gracius Maximus:
As someone that was involved in 'a prolonged coup of TNP' a very long time ago who has since been a long term contributor to this community, I support the idea of readdressing relations with The Pacific.
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I'm sure you do, Emperor. Please don't ask us to believe you're impartial here because of your duality claims.

Gracius Maximus:
The realpolitik of the situation is that the NPO is not isolated. They do have diplomatic relations with other GCRs and have already made strides to repair relations with our allies in the East and have likely started talks with others as well. If we allow pettiness to cloud our judgment then we aren't doing anything to 'hurt' The Pacific, we are just being petty.
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Whether the NPO remains fully isolated does not change whether the NPO should remain as isolated as possible. Just because other Feeders and Sinkers have reopened relations with the NPO (or never closed them) and made other stupid decisions, like admitting those primarily responsible for the Lazarus coup to citizenship in The East Pacific at AMOM's behest, does not mean The North Pacific should follow suit and make similarly stupid decisions. The North Pacific gains nothing by reopening relations with the NPO except a countdown to severing relations again the next time you perpetrate or support a coup against another Feeder or Sinker. The NPO has demonstrated no substantive change that should lead us to believe reopening relations would be beneficial.

Gracius Maximus:
That said, it has been my understanding that nearly all diplomatic interactions with Pierconium from all corners have been positive, including a recent cooperative position between the NPO and TNP on the state of the West. This seems to contradict much of what has been stated above.

I also have it on good authority that the Delegate of The Pacific has reached out to our Delegate and others in order to address past wrongs and is willing to publish public statements to that effect once certain issues are clarified for him from our end.
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So you've cooperated in countercoup efforts against DEN on one occasion in the West Pacific and that somehow contradicts the NPO's past perpetration of coups here, in The South Pacific, and in Lazarus? There is no statement you can make that will make the NPO trustworthy again in light of your decade long history of undermining the sovereignty of other Feeders and Sinkers. Only action will prove the NPO can be trusted again, and it's going to take more than one day of cooperation over the West Pacific.
 
The Democratic Republic of Tomb:
Gracius Maximus:
As someone that was involved in 'a prolonged coup of TNP' a very long time ago who has since been a long term contributor to this community, I support the idea of readdressing relations with The Pacific.

The realpolitik of the situation is that the NPO is not isolated. They do have diplomatic relations with other GCRs and have already made strides to repair relations with our allies in the East and have likely started talks with others as well. If we allow pettiness to cloud our judgment then we aren't doing anything to 'hurt' The Pacific, we are just being petty.

That said, it has been my understanding that nearly all diplomatic interactions with Pierconium from all corners have been positive, including a recent cooperative position between the NPO and TNP on the state of the West. This seems to contradict much of what has been stated above.

I also have it on good authority that the Delegate of The Pacific has reached out to our Delegate and others in order to address past wrongs and is willing to publish public statements to that effect once certain issues are clarified for him from our end.
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How many years have passed since you couped TNP? How many months have passed since the NPO couped Lazarus and disrespected its sovereignty along with that of other regions?

Yeah... there seems to be a difference there.

~ Tomb
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About six I believe. In that time I think the leadership of the NPO has changed, which is generally considered the appropriate response to such issues. Also, the new Emperor has expressed personal regret and apology to Lazarus directly, even though he wasn't himself involved at all.
 
Cormac:
Gracius Maximus:
As someone that was involved in 'a prolonged coup of TNP' a very long time ago who has since been a long term contributor to this community, I support the idea of readdressing relations with The Pacific.
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I'm sure you do, Emperor. Please don't ask us to believe you're impartial here because of your duality claims.

Gracius Maximus:
The realpolitik of the situation is that the NPO is not isolated. They do have diplomatic relations with other GCRs and have already made strides to repair relations with our allies in the East and have likely started talks with others as well. If we allow pettiness to cloud our judgment then we aren't doing anything to 'hurt' The Pacific, we are just being petty.
Click to expand...
Whether the NPO remains fully isolated does not change whether the NPO should remain as isolated as possible. Just because other Feeders and Sinkers have reopened relations with the NPO (or never closed them) and made other stupid decisions, like admitting those primarily responsible for the Lazarus coup to citizenship in The East Pacific at AMOM's behest, does not mean The North Pacific should follow suit and make similarly stupid decisions. The North Pacific gains nothing by reopening relations with the NPO except a countdown to severing relations again the next time you perpetrate or support a coup against another Feeder or Sinker. The NPO has demonstrated no substantive change that should lead us to believe reopening relations would be beneficial.

Gracius Maximus:
That said, it has been my understanding that nearly all diplomatic interactions with Pierconium from all corners have been positive, including a recent cooperative position between the NPO and TNP on the state of the West. This seems to contradict much of what has been stated above.

I also have it on good authority that the Delegate of The Pacific has reached out to our Delegate and others in order to address past wrongs and is willing to publish public statements to that effect once certain issues are clarified for him from our end.
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So you've cooperated in countercoup efforts against DEN on one occasion in the West Pacific and that somehow contradicts the NPO's past perpetration of coups here, in The South Pacific, and in Lazarus? There is no statement you can make that will make the NPO trustworthy again in light of your decade long history of undermining the sovereignty of other Feeders and Sinkers. Only action will prove the NPO can be trusted again, and it's going to take more than one day of cooperation over the West Pacific.
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Wait a moment, I remember who you are now. You're that guy that took part in the recent TWP coup, sent out an unendorsement telegram and then scrambled to try and take credit for assisting in the liberation a few hours later when it became apparent your plan wasn't going to work.

I knew I recognised you from somewhere...

Got to love a good hypocrite, right?
 
Gracius Maximus:
About six I believe. In that time I think the leadership of the NPO has changed, which is generally considered the appropriate response to such issues. Also, the new Emperor has expressed personal regret and apology to Lazarus directly, even though he wasn't himself involved at all.
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How drastically has the leadership changed? You've gone from one half-hearted supporter of coups serving as Emperor (Krulltopia) to one who, admittedly, has throughout his history been much more committed than Krulltopia to tyranny and undermining the sovereignty of other Feeders and Sinkers (you). Meanwhile, Krulltopia, who presided over the NPO during the more recent coups, remains a Senator.

This is not a substantive change in leadership, reflecting regret and a desire to truly change. That kind of substantive change would have seen Elegarth appointed Emperor and Krulltopia booted from the Senate and into full retirement. This is just a cosmetic reshuffle so that you can claim to have changed, and some very gullible people might believe you.

Gracius Maximus:
Wait a moment, I remember who you are now. You're that guy that took part in the recent TWP coup, sent out an unendorsement telegram and then scrambled to try and take credit for assisting in the liberation a few hours later when it became apparent your plan wasn't going to work.

I knew I recognised you from somewhere...

Got to love a good hypocrite, right?
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This is your version of events, which contradicts both what I said and what I ultimately did regarding the West Pacific. You're now revealing your motive in concocting this libel: to smear me when I rightly attack the NPO for its litany of crimes against its fellow Feeders and Sinkers. Your motives were obvious to me already, but now they're obvious to everyone. Nothing more than a smear campaign to try to discredit one of your regime's most vocal and by far most effective critics.

I assume with your resorting to irrelevant personal smearing, you have nothing more to contribute in defense of your tyrannical regime's reprehensible record on Feeder and Sinker sovereignty and I've won the debate. A pleasure wiping the floor with you again, Emperor.
 
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