On the Topic of Multi Species

The Spokesman of Eumenor

The Spokesman of Eumenor

TNPer
Hello all.
So I'm sure you all know about the departure of our friend Darcania, in part because of the issues surrounding his decision to roleplay as a multi species nation. I'd just like to share with you an extract from an email he wrote to me.

Darcania's email to me:
After all, a nation full of dragons seems like a cliche-ridden, godmodding disaster waiting to happen. However, multi-species, by itself, should not be an immediate offense. Any random schmoe shouldn't be able to, at any time, frivolously declare any random thing null canon, even if it's multi-species. It should be solely the purview of the RolePlay Moderators to declare something null canon, and only as a last resort. Unfortunately, Nierr and Lord Lore have ruled in favor of the first scenario, and have even indicated that they themselves would take advantage of that ruling should they even RP with me. Instead, the rule should be that multi-species is, by itself, not an offense and perfectly acceptable. After all, a framework is already in place to prevent godmodding and other offenses, and that is that there are RP mods there to take care of that. If an MS RPer commits one of those offenses, sure, report it to an RP mod so they can moderate them and, if necessary, declare relevant posts null canon. However, MS should not be one of the offenses and should not be capable of being declared null canon by any random schmoe. If there are skeptics, then they are free to not contact the MS RPer's nation, but they shouldn't just null canon the whole thing. If the two do meet, then the skeptic should see by now (since bad MS RPers would've been weeded out by RP mods removing their godmodding, etc.) that the MS RPer has plenty to add to RP, and if not, they can always talk to the RP mods about any issues. But with the null canon ruling, skeptics can go through their lives stuck in their little shells, incapable of taking any changes to their head canon, while MS RPers, even great ones, flat out can't RP since everything they do is null canon.
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I think Darcania raises some important points here. According to the region's tag, we are a multi-species region. While MS RPers are allowed, in practise, RPers who choose to roleplay with, say, dragons, are limited in their ability to roleplay and to belong, because andy player has the right just to declare what they are doing null-canon. While nations can choose to ignore these players, (as Eumenor just fails to recognise the whole Great War thing) the fact that these players are almost discriminated against because of their decision to RP MS, even though we are a legitimate MS region, is, to me unacceptable.
From later in the email:
Please, if you see anyone considering multi-species (I remember Mr Insanity considering it), let them know that they would be effectively blocked from roleplaying. You don't have to drive them away or make them change to human, but at least let them know so they aren't blindsided like I was.
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I think this says it all really. If one of us has been made to feel, whether rightly or wrongly, that he was blocked from roleplay, something clearly is wrong. I'd welcome all your opinions on the subject.
 
I, for one, support multi-species if done correctly - like Darcania did or an insect-based race I remember being mentioned during the time of RP Convention. I also agree with your statement, nobody should be barred from roleplay, unless they break simple rules such as Godmodding or no FT in the present.
 
I have zero issue with multi-species as long as it is done right and makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Hell, I will not hesitate to admit that there are elements within The North Pacific that I view as non-canon (excessive population / military size being a big one) but at the same time I won't go so far as to admit that the people (and by extension the nation) and their role playing are entirely null canon. Instead, I'll try to find a middle ground and see if I can role play with them within a framework that makes sense from my own point of view.
 
I have no issue within either and continue to support those who wish to RP that way. What is important to remember is that whether we RP as humans or multi-species there are going to be things in our histories or modern RPs that don't quite make perfect sense.

It's a game, let people play it, without God modding or unreasonable nay-Sayers.
 
MS RPers aren't blocked from rping, but I will say this, This is Not a Fantasy RP Setting. Darcania seemed to frequently forget that this RP setting is based in MT-PMT, not fantasy. That was one of his first problems. His second problem was the multi-species he was rping as, dragons. I'm sorry, but in my canon, there are no dragons, just as there no griffins, sphinx, hydras or sentient ponies. Sorry, there just isn't. Obviously others can disagree and that is why canon is how a nation controls its own narrative.

Darcania is wrong when he asserts RP mods have the ability to declare something null canon. They do not. They never have had that ability and he overstepped the mark in instances where he used his modship to do that. I, as an rper, have the ability to declare things that effect my nation as ignored. Doing that for everything just makes me a bad RPer, however, accepting everything doesn't make you a good RPer.

If someone has a well thought out, well explained and most importantly at least semi-believable non-human species (and I will maintain that they would still have to be humanoid for this to apply) then I am happy to accept that species as being canon in my narrative. But dragons, bro? Sorry, but this just isn't fantasy.
 
Cronaal:
Multi-species is fantasy.
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To an extent.

However you can easily play off humanoid fantasy species (such as elves, dwarves etc) as being oddly shaped or developed humans, much like some tribal peoples in RL past and present would seem and do seem very strange to us.
 
Nierr:
Cronaal:
Multi-species is fantasy.
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To an extent.

However you can easily play off humanoid fantasy species (such as elves, dwarves etc) as being oddly shaped or developed humans, much like some tribal peoples in RL past and present would seem and do seem very strange to us.
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So you support humanoid-based species.
 
Yes. I've said that in the past, as well.

It's about being reasonable. If I can, when presented with your non-human species, 'ok but in character my guys will just consider them humans of a different sort' or whatever, that's entirely reasonable in our MT-PMT setting.

Conversely, if someone barges rping as an MLP nation with sentient ponies flying fighter jets etc etc etc, that's obviously not reasonable, at all.
 
Nierr:
Yes. I've said that in the past, as well.

It's about being reasonable. If I can, when presented with your non-human species, 'ok but in character my guys will just consider them humans of a different sort' or whatever, that's entirely reasonable in our MT-PMT setting.

Conversely, if someone barges rping as an MLP nation with sentient ponies flying fighter jets etc etc etc, that's obviously not reasonable, at all.
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This matches well with my ideas.
Goes back to brainstorming possible race
 
the closest to multispecies we have are a race of highly-intelligent squirrels which were the result of experimental selective breeding by an insane Khan about 300 years ago (They technically have their own language and are very isolationist so they don't crop up much) and Ghouls, which are humans that, for religious reasons, have willingly undergone ritualistic mutilation (specifically lips and nose amongst other body parts) after being declared legally dead and have cast off their humanity (it was tied in to the Zombie Outbreak originally)
 
People should be able to make up their own creatures out races as long as they make them reasonable and can RP them responsibly. Dragons are, perhaps, a bit unreasonable, but in the hands of Darcania they were well handled and, to me, perfectly fine.
 
Nebula:
People should be able to make up their own creatures out races as long as they make them reasonable and can RP them responsibly. Dragons are, perhaps, a bit unreasonable, but in the hands of Darcania they were well handled and, to me, perfectly fine.
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This. I, infact, think they were actually kinda cool.
 
They can RP ponies with rainbows coming out of their genitals or laser-eye-shooting dwarves, but the RPer should have the right not to recognize them. Nobody stopped Darc from expressly creating a fantasy-themed thread where no one would have a problem with dragons. Frankly if I'm role-playing modern-tech, I expect modern-tech. I won't be recognizing dragons.
 
I stand with Darcania on this one. While during the RolePlay Convention I was very anti-MS, I have changed my mind on the issue. If someone like Lord Lore or Darcania or anyone, can put time into thinking it out and the specifics on how it works. Congrats. They've earned multi-species. But hearing, "this is null canon! This is stupid and unrealistic!!!", is ridiculous. (This is not targeted at anyone, just an example) You're over here declaring war and mobilizing without any consent of your legislature and you're calling MS unrealistic?

In summary, just because what someone else spends their time on and what you spend your time on is different, does not mean you should take their beautiful piece of art. Yes, it is art. And crumple it into a million pieces.

Oh, and yes, dragons do exist in Guslantis. The Sunft clan was mutually recognized by both Darcania and I, and approved by Nierr as canon for Guslantis. I will be speaking to Darcania about keeping the individual dragons we created together.
 
Woah woah woah... let's sort one thing out right now, I'm not the arbiter as canon. I can't approve or deny the canon of your nation, that's for you, and in part the people you RP with, to decide.

Kannex is kinda right on this issue, in that he encapsulates the 'you can rp how you want, but I'm free to ignore you as well'. I don't want people to be throwing ignore cannons out there or anything, but also I don't want people to feel like they're bound to accept even the most ludicrous of scenarios.

And that goes not just for multi-species, but for anything.
 
Well you can leave your 'art' where it is. I'm not buying it. My legislature happens to allow up 60 days of military action with Congressional approval -- just like *shockingly* the U.S. Congress! But I'm sorry that I didn't vote in any unicorns or laser-defecating robots in my last election -- gee, that would have made it more modern-tech, innit? Perhaps I could have voted in a talking reptilian alien as my Prime Minister.

This is getting ridiculous. Honestly, nobody cares if you want to RP dragons or whatnot -- more power to you! But you can't force people to role-play with it like that. Leave your 'art' to yourself, in your fantasy threads.
 
That's fine. I give you full permission to never RP with me again, if you choose to do so.
 
This all seems pretty ridiculous.

As I said the last time all this came up, I fully support the inclusion of multiple species - as long as those species are well thought out and RPed skillfully.

If we are going to allow multi-species, as was previously agreed, then my stance is that the RP leadership (minister, deputies, RP mods) should be able to rule on whether someone's species qualifies as well thought out and skillfully RPed, and thus whether it can be TNP canon. If they rule in favor, I strongly believe that that should not be optional to recognize.

You don't have to talk to them, RP with them, or say anything about their nation... but if you do, it should not be cool to pretend that they're actually just humans.
 
No. Each role-player should be allowed to govern his own canon. The RP moderators should not have the power to say what is canon or what isn't -- that is the power of the participating RPers alone. That's only fair. To regulate or shape the general canon should not be the job of the RP moderators -- they are there to ensure RPing goes smoothly, according to etiquette. They are not there to shape the story. If you are role-playing non-humans in modern-tech, I am treating them as either human or non-existent.
 
That's actually... not fair at all. This is one world, not a pile of them. One world, one history, one actual story. It's told in different parts by different people, but you don't get to just.... pretend the western continents don't exist, or pretend you own land that someone else controls. You don't get to decide what is and is not canon in the world - you can only control your country and your people.

So sure, if you want to RP that all your people are delusional and whenever they see dragons they hallucinate people? Cool. That could be interesting. But you don't get to decide canon.
 
How is it fair to force your ridiculous fantasy creatures on someone else's canon? You don't get to force someone to accept that there are unicorn defecating lasers who are politicians, or leprechauns owning banks. Might as well be a Harry Potter RP rather than a modern RP! If anything, multi-species should be banned from modern-tech, but the RP moderators are generous to allow the freedom to choose. And it should stay that way. Canon should remain the domain of the individual RPer.
 
Okay everyone. Hyacinth, would you care to show our friends to the dining room for some tea and light refreshments before dinner? (@McMasterdonia)

*coughs*

Roleplay is meant to be fun. It is a unique aspect of our community, and is a community within a community. Roleplay moderators exist, not to decide 'canon', but to ensure the playing field - or storyboard - is level, and fair to all - whether a new nation, starting out, or a decade old veteran.

It is down to the individual roleplayers to decide how their nation shall interact with others. But no one has the right to attack another nation - OOC - for things that they do not like about the nation's composition. It is also needless to say, "I won't RP with you because your nation has <XYZAQ1>" - you can simply decline, or ignore anything related to their roleplay.

In this form of creative expression a certain maturity and mindset is needed: you need to be accepting of the differences and quirks of your colleagues. This community needs to be open and welcoming, so let's try and avoid a heated argument in this thread okay? I've already seen comments on IRC which suggest one or two of you are getting a little angry.

Remember: if you are getting angry, please take a short break. Get a drink, a snack and then relax for a little while. This is meant to be a community based around creative expression, and we need to remember to respect the diversity of our fellow players. Thank you :)
 
Kannex:
How is it fair to force your ridiculous fantasy creatures on someone else's canon? You don't get to force someone to accept that there are unicorn defecating lasers who are politicians, or leprechauns owning banks. Might as well be a Harry Potter RP rather than a modern RP! If anything, multi-species should be banned from modern-tech, but the RP moderators are generous to allow the freedom to choose. And it should stay that way. Canon should remain the domain of the individual RPer.
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In that case, the entire nation as "Kannex" has ceased to exist in the eyes of Nebula. Any inhabitants there are lawless barbarians, any military actions taken are in actuality being taken by Syrixia or Rhuvanland, and any international diplomacy is being done by a group of hallucinating lunatics who believe that they have been sent by a Kaiser to do his bidding.
 
And with that, we need a chilly down for a while.

Topic will be unlocked tomorrow.

Edit: Won't be around tomorrow morning to do it. Unlocked now.

I will be watching. Behave, Kannex and Nebula especially.
 
Right, let's try this again. As OP, I don't want personal attacks or specific references to existing nations. This is a forum for the discussion of multi species, not for carrying out an individual's agendas.
I'd like to steer conversation away from the validity of M-S and ask, how can we make those who choose M-S feel more part of the community, and not 'blindsided' as Darcania put it.
 
I think it's evident: fantasy RPs. I wouldn't mind one. We already have a sci-fi RP; a Tolkienesque fantasy RP would be nice.
 
Be accepting of MS players in simple ways. Make it so that when we visit the cities of Nebula, the buses have seating on top for dragons. Things are not just designed for human use. It's the little things.
 
Nebula:
Be accepting of MS players in simple ways. Make it so that when we visit the cities of Nebula, the buses have seating on top for dragons. Things are not just designed for human use. It's the little things.
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:lol: Okay, buddy.
 
Cronaal I'd suggest creating such a topic in the Factbook Stories subforum.
 
Nierr:
Cronaal I'd suggest creating such a topic in the Factbook Stories subforum.
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I'll consider it, I'd have to go into thread-worthy detail though.

EDIT: This is super, duper hard. ;c Nope nope nope, fuck that bullshit. I'll just RP it without warning or pre description.
 
I should note: Darcania is right about me, considering doing multi-species. Which actually done. However, I kept is realistic in someway by, having my nation split in half (Sort of) like human and only antho species (Mean human like species), aswell keeping in the modern and post modern timefame. However, I appreciate people opinions about this.
 
I done some information on this: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=new_sekai/detail=factbook/id=348887 .

Explaining my nations demographics - population (Explaining the species a bit):

"The U.S.O.N.S. Census Bureau currently estimates the country's population to be 65,000,000. The U.S.O.N.S. Population almost quadrupled during the 20th century, from 16,250,000 in 1800. The nine most populous nation in The North Pacific, after The Purpletext Manipulator of Eumenor, The United States of New Sekai is one of the only major industrialized nation in which large population increased are projected. In the 1700s the average women had 7.04 children, by 1900s this number had decreased to 3.65.

The United States of New Sekai has a very diverse population; 74 ancestry groups have more than one million members. Anthropo Urufu Wolf Jumin No Kushos, and Human Jumin No Kushos are the largest ethnic group (more than 10 million) - follow by Anthropo Kitsune Fox Jumin No Kushos, and Human _____ Jumin No Kushos (Circa 8 million), Anthropo Koyote Coyote Jumin No Kushos, and Human _____ Jumin No Kushos (Circa 8 million) and Anthropo Jakkaru Jackal Jumin No Kushos, and Human _____ Jumin No Kushos (circa 7 million).

Anthropo Jumin No Kushos and White Human Jumin No Kushos are the largest racial group; Black Human Jumin No Kushos are the nation's largest racial minority and third largest ancestry group. _____ Jumin No Kushos are the country's second largest minority; the three largest _____ Jumin No Kushos ethnic groups are _____ Jumin No Kushos, _____ Jumin No Kushos, and _____ Jumin No Kushos.

The United States of New Sekai has a birth rate of 13 per 1,000. Its population growth rate is positive at 0.7%, higher than that of many developed nations. In fiscal year 2012, over one million immigrants (most of whom entered through family reunification) were granted legal residence. _____ has been the leading source of new residents since the 1965 Immigrants Act. _____, _____, and the _____ have been in the top four sending countries every year since the 1990s. As of 2012, approximately 10,000,000 residents are illegal immigrants.

According to a survey Shuto Institute, nine million Jumin No Kushos, or roughly 3.4% of the adult population identify themselves as homosexual, bisexual, or transgender. A 2012 Gyarappu poll also concluded that 3.5% of adult Jumin No Kushos identified as LGBT. The highest percentage came from the District of Mazu (10%), while the lower state was Daiku at 1.7%. In a 2013 survey, The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that 96.6% of Jumin No Kushos identify as straight, while 1.6% identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% identify as bring bisexual.

In 2010, The U.S.O.N.S. population included an estimated 5.2 million people with some Native Jumin No Kushos ancestry (2.9 million exclusively of such ancestry). The census counted more than 19 million people of "Some Other Race" who were "Unable to identify with any" of its five official race category in 2010.

The population growth of _____ and _____ Jumin No Kushos (the term are officially interchangeable) is a major demographic trend. The 10 million Jumin No Kushos of _____ descent are identified as sharing a distinct "ethnicity" by the Census Bureau; 64% of _____ Jumin No Kushos are of _____ descent. Between 2000 and 2010, the country's _____ population increased 43% while the non-_____ population rose just 4.9%. Much of this growth is from immigration; in 2007, 12.6% of The U.S.O.N.S. population was foreign-born, with 54% of that figure born in _____.

Fertility is also a factor; in 2010 the average _____ (of any race) women gave birth to 2.35 children in her lifetime, compared to 1.97 for non-_____ black women and 1.79 for non-_____ white women (both below the replacement rate of 2.1). Minorities (as defined by The Census Bureau as all those beside non-_____, non-_____ multicultural whites) constituted 36.3% of the population in 2010, and over 50% of children under age one, and are projected to constituted the majority by 2042. This contradicts the report by The National Vital Statistics Reports, based on the U.S.O.N.S. data, which concludes that 54% in 2010 of birth were non-_____ white.

About 82% of Jumin No Kushos live in urban areas (including suburbs); about half of those reside in cities with populations over 50,000. In 2008, 273 incorporated places had populations over 100,000, nine cities had more than one million residents, and four global cities had over two million (Shuto, Daini Ni-Shuto, Sado-Shuto and Daishi Ni-Shuto.). There are 52 metropolitan areas with populations greater than one million. Of the 50 faster-growing metro areas, 47 are in the West. The metro areas of Mazu, Daini Ni, Sado, Daishi Ni and Fifusu all grew by more than a million people between 2000 and 2008."

I hope this won't cause any issue for my nation or any other nation to role play.

(Anyway, if you notice isn't finished yet. Those space, I need helps from other nations. Aswell, I hope is realistic?)
 
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