Review of Claim Rules

[St George]

Since I'm apparently giving the RP community the middle finger with how I apply or not apply claim rules, I'm launching a review of the current rules (located in the map claims topic op or in the second post of the map nexus topic) along with a public consultation on what the community thinks about the current rules.

Changes, suggestions, revamps, throwing them out all together and letting me rule by decree are all welcome.

Shit posting and meme spam will annoy me, and an annoyed cartographer is not something any of you want.

 

[Syrixia]

The rules themselves are alright, but considering that new nations are going to claim the new continents I don't agree with your mandate that the new continents are dry and arid. It restricts people's ability to create their own geography.

 

[St George]

That was done for a reason, to prevent the mass claiming of colonies on the new continents. Some of you already have more than enough inclaves, exclaves, colonies, puppet states etc etc etc on the map that I wanted to stop you from claiming on the new continents.

It was considered that existing nations would be denied altogether from claiming on the new continents, or limited in size to similar to what Archegnum recently posted in the claims topic.

 

[Kannex]

I think existing nations should be denied from claiming territory on the new continents, excluding those claims that have already been made. This area ought to be reserved for newer players and not for colonial ambitions. Considering this I believe the geography and climate should be up to the claimant players to decide.

I would also like some guidelines on claim sizes. Every time there is a sizable claim, there is always confusion and commentary over what is too large or what isn't. Some sort of rulebook or guideline would clear things up.

 

[Syrixia]

^---This. Specifically the first part.

 

[Nebula]

If we can enforce a limit on claim sizes, I don't see any reason why people can't colonize the new continents. If they go over the limit, they have to pick and choose.

 

[The Spokesman of Eumenor]

I think colonies in general and any large overseas territories should be strongly discouraged, as they are not necessary in the modern world. Communication means that you no longer need extra land for trade purposes, and the fall of colonialism, exploitation and the slave trade means that barely any real countries control large amounts of land overseas. The political implications of controlling far away natives would, to be honest, put my government off dealing with you. Those seeking a colony or province or whatever as an accessory, because you want more land, or because everyone else is doing it, should think carefully if it would really benefit your modern country, and if it is realistic. Because I'm sure in many cases, it doesn't and it isn't.

 

[Nightsong]

I just want to say that colonies make zero sense in a modern setting. Yes, I have two additional claims outside of Kalti. However, the way I built my nation (the Confederation) in addition to the way everything is role-played is very different from a colony. Both Andalucia and Callaici are full fledged nation's in their own right yet have a mutual agreement to be part of the Confederation. In a real world sense, the Federation of Kalti equals the Kingdom of Denmark while Andalucia and Callaici equal the Faroe Islands (which are a self-governing country).

Due to this, I am for the following:
- New colonial claims can be made if a strong argument is put forward for the need to exist
- Put a size limitation on colonies (so we do not quickly lose free land space)
- Limit the number of colonies per nation (I would say two as that is what I have and I have no intent of going over that)
- Priority of new claims / new nations that do not have a claim already on the map

 

[Felis]

I just want to say that colonies make zero sense in a modern setting. Yes, I have two additional claims outside of Kalti. However, the way I built my nation (the Confederation) in addition to the way everything is role-played is very different from a colony. Both Andalucia and Callaici are full fledged nation's in their own right yet have a mutual agreement to be part of the Confederation. In a real world sense, the Federation of Kalti equals the Kingdom of Denmark while Andalucia and Callaici equal the Faroe Islands (which are a self-governing country).

Due to this, I am for the following:
- New colonial claims can be made if a strong argument is put forward for the need to exist
- Put a size limitation on colonies (so we do not quickly lose free land space)
- Limit the number of colonies per nation (I would say two as that is what I have and I have no intent of going over that)
- Priority of new claims / new nations that do not have a claim already on the map

Total Agreement.

 

[Syrixia]

I just want to say that colonies make zero sense in a modern setting. Yes, I have two additional claims outside of Kalti. However, the way I built my nation (the Confederation) in addition to the way everything is role-played is very different from a colony. Both Andalucia and Callaici are full fledged nation's in their own right yet have a mutual agreement to be part of the Confederation. In a real world sense, the Federation of Kalti equals the Kingdom of Denmark while Andalucia and Callaici equal the Faroe Islands (which are a self-governing country).

Due to this, I am for the following:
- New colonial claims can be made if a strong argument is put forward for the need to exist
- Put a size limitation on colonies (so we do not quickly lose free land space)
- Limit the number of colonies per nation (I would say two as that is what I have and I have no intent of going over that)
- Priority of new claims / new nations that do not have a claim already on the map

I absolutely agree, though I think claims made before, providing they have information as Silvia Peninsula (Xentherida), Portmantea (Guslantis), and Delia Point (Syrixia) do, should have precedence, especially ones that are annexed into the mother country, like the last one.

 

[The Spokesman of Eumenor]

I think colonies in general and any large overseas territories should be strongly discouraged, as they are not necessary in the modern world. Communication means that you no longer need extra land for trade purposes, and the fall of colonialism, exploitation and the slave trade means that barely any real countries control large amounts of land overseas. The political implications of controlling far away natives would, to be honest, put my government off dealing with you. Those seeking a colony or province or whatever as an accessory, because you want more land, or because everyone else is doing it, should think carefully if it would really benefit your modern country, and if it is realistic. Because I'm sure in many cases, it doesn't and it isn't.

I absolutely agree, though I think claims made before, providing they have information as Silvia Peninsula (Xentherida), Portmantea (Guslantis), and Delia Point (Syrixia) do, should have precedence, especially ones that are annexed into the mother country, like the last one.

How does Delia Point benefit Syrixia?

 

[Syrixia]

I think colonies in general and any large overseas territories should be strongly discouraged, as they are not necessary in the modern world. Communication means that you no longer need extra land for trade purposes, and the fall of colonialism, exploitation and the slave trade means that barely any real countries control large amounts of land overseas. The political implications of controlling far away natives would, to be honest, put my government off dealing with you. Those seeking a colony or province or whatever as an accessory, because you want more land, or because everyone else is doing it, should think carefully if it would really benefit your modern country, and if it is realistic. Because I'm sure in many cases, it doesn't and it isn't.

I absolutely agree, though I think claims made before, providing they have information as Silvia Peninsula (Xentherida), Portmantea (Guslantis), and Delia Point (Syrixia) do, should have precedence, especially ones that are annexed into the mother country, like the last one.

How does Delia Point benefit Syrixia?

It has many underground riches, enough that would surprise even Syrixia with its decently large size. These resources have been mined since it was colonized. It also has exotic fruits and plants, and is an easier way for Syrixians to get around the world due to its location. Also, Delia Point has been a registered province since the days of the People's Republic, when it was first annexed. Due to the hard-to-cross mountains in the Delian north, most if not all of the province's residents are Syrixians.

But enough about Delia Point. Delia Point is just one of three examples. The overarching theme here is that claims that were already made and backed up with a history, as my three examples were, should be given precedence over new claims. The only thing I am not in support of is TOO MANY colonies. I think each nation should only have one to two colonies, and I also believe they should be annexed by now, or given independence.

 

[Felis]

I don't believe in NATIONS having two or more colonies.
I believe in not allowing USERS having three or more CLAIMS, including their initial one for their nation.
I dislike the loose and misguiding terminology being used by some users here.

 

[The Spokesman of Eumenor]

I think colonies in general and any large overseas territories should be strongly discouraged, as they are not necessary in the modern world. Communication means that you no longer need extra land for trade purposes, and the fall of colonialism, exploitation and the slave trade means that barely any real countries control large amounts of land overseas. The political implications of controlling far away natives would, to be honest, put my government off dealing with you. Those seeking a colony or province or whatever as an accessory, because you want more land, or because everyone else is doing it, should think carefully if it would really benefit your modern country, and if it is realistic. Because I'm sure in many cases, it doesn't and it isn't.

I absolutely agree, though I think claims made before, providing they have information as Silvia Peninsula (Xentherida), Portmantea (Guslantis), and Delia Point (Syrixia) do, should have precedence, especially ones that are annexed into the mother country, like the last one.

How does Delia Point benefit Syrixia?

It has many underground riches, enough that would surprise even Syrixia with its decently large size. These resources have been mined since it was colonized. It also has exotic fruits and plants, and is an easier way for Syrixians to get around the world due to its location. Also, Delia Point has been a registered province since the days of the People's Republic, when it was first annexed. Due to the hard-to-cross mountains in the Delian north, most if not all of the province's residents are Syrixians.

But enough about Delia Point. Delia Point is just one of three examples. The overarching theme here is that claims that were already made and backed up with a history, as my three examples were, should be given precedence over new claims. The only thing I am not in support of is TOO MANY colonies. I think each nation should only have one to two colonies, and I also believe they should be annexed by now, or given independence.

Nah nah nah, back to Delia point.
A colony making travel easier was appropriate in years past, but today, air flight and modern shipping, plus the stability that comes with globalisation and international cooperation, means that controlling territory is not necessary to exert your influence around the region.
Surely controlling an area to extract its riches is also unnecessary, as they can be obtained through fair trade with the region's native inhabitants?
Finally, most overseas territories have sought independence. I find it hard to believe that those in Delia Point wouldn't do the same. I don't know man, but I just don't think everybody needs to go round claiming huge numbers of colonies. It's frowned upon in the modern world.

 

[Syrixia]

I think colonies in general and any large overseas territories should be strongly discouraged, as they are not necessary in the modern world. Communication means that you no longer need extra land for trade purposes, and the fall of colonialism, exploitation and the slave trade means that barely any real countries control large amounts of land overseas. The political implications of controlling far away natives would, to be honest, put my government off dealing with you. Those seeking a colony or province or whatever as an accessory, because you want more land, or because everyone else is doing it, should think carefully if it would really benefit your modern country, and if it is realistic. Because I'm sure in many cases, it doesn't and it isn't.

I absolutely agree, though I think claims made before, providing they have information as Silvia Peninsula (Xentherida), Portmantea (Guslantis), and Delia Point (Syrixia) do, should have precedence, especially ones that are annexed into the mother country, like the last one.

How does Delia Point benefit Syrixia?

It has many underground riches, enough that would surprise even Syrixia with its decently large size. These resources have been mined since it was colonized. It also has exotic fruits and plants, and is an easier way for Syrixians to get around the world due to its location. Also, Delia Point has been a registered province since the days of the People's Republic, when it was first annexed. Due to the hard-to-cross mountains in the Delian north, most if not all of the province's residents are Syrixians.

But enough about Delia Point. Delia Point is just one of three examples. The overarching theme here is that claims that were already made and backed up with a history, as my three examples were, should be given precedence over new claims. The only thing I am not in support of is TOO MANY colonies. I think each nation should only have one to two colonies, and I also believe they should be annexed by now, or given independence.

Nah nah nah, back to Delia point.
A colony making travel easier was appropriate in years past, but today, air flight and modern shipping, plus the stability that comes with globalisation and international cooperation, means that controlling territory is not necessary to exert your influence around the region.
Surely controlling an area to extract its riches is also unnecessary, as they can be obtained through fair trade with the region's native inhabitants?
Finally, most overseas territories have sought independence. I find it hard to believe that those in Delia Point wouldn't do the same. I don't know man, but I just don't think everybody needs to go round claiming huge numbers of colonies. It's frowned upon in the modern world.

Delia Point is mostly populated by Syrixians, and does not seek independence. They're fine as is. Again, because of the high mountains, natives never moved there and went to other places.

And I don't think everybody needs to go around claiming huge numbers of colonies either. That's why there's only one, and it's not a colony.

 

[Piscivore]

In my case, we annexed Arcadia Bay because we initially wanted a place for a hospital for the Smithworks disaster, so we didn't need to transport victims all the way to Sadakoyama for treatment, then needed somewhere to put refugees and other undesirables.

Westmark is an archaeological site; it is as well as a school and hospital for the indigenous peoples, a dry climate training facility, a refuel and resupply point for our science ships, and central lab complex to facilitate our scientific survey of the western continents.

 

[Nightsong]

We really need to set a limit on claim size for the newly added continents. Just the last three alone have taken up large chunks of land. At the rate of claims that size, there will no land left on the new continents very quickly.

 

[Syrixia]

We really need to set a limit on claim size for the newly added continents. Just the last three alone have taken up large chunks of land. At the rate of claims that size, there will no land left on the new continents very quickly.

Hence why Delia Point is not that big.

Still, I do think GBM's and McM's claims are abnormally huge and there's a bit of veteran bias involved, but that's just tin foil hat giraffe me.

 

[Kannex]

I've always assumed two additional claims per player was the de facto rule and I think it ought to be made official. I don't plan on seeking a third claim until I've used up Pelhafor's storytelling potential, which will be in a long time. I feel I've justified my Pelhafor claim quite well and have role-played it realistically.

I wouldn't say colonies are completely useless. Colonies make good military bases and have resources. Extracting riches through fair trade with the local inhabitants? I don't want a fair trade. I want a monopoly. And there's, of course, the prestige. The fact that Kannex, itself a former colony, has dominated another piece of land and its people, is a matter of nationalistic pride. Just like when Teddy Roosevelt started cruising around his turf in the Western Hemisphere, sporting a big stick, or when U.S. troops landed in Europe to help liberate the continent.

Certainly, in modern times colonies have become obsolete, because peoples in all corners of the world have developed nationalism and political consciousnesses and a taste for independence. And the founding ideology of the U.N. is that all nations, no matter how big or small or powerful, are equal (unless you're on the SC; then, you're more equal than others) and that every people has a right to self determination. Well, that is the prevailing philosophy of our times, but the thing is, we don't have to play by that. There's really nothing saying we can't regress to imperialism and start colonizing everything in sight with impunity. There's no U.N. here. You can annex if you want to.

 

[Syrixia]

I've always assumed two additional claims per player was the de facto rule and I think it ought to be made official. I don't plan on seeking a third claim until I've used up Pelhafor's storytelling potential, which will be in a long time. I feel I've justified my Pelhafor claim quite well and have role-played it realistically.

I wouldn't say colonies are completely useless. Colonies make good military bases and have resources. Extracting riches through fair trade with the local inhabitants? I don't want a fair trade. I want a monopoly. And there's, of course, the prestige. The fact that Kannex, itself a former colony, has dominated another piece of land and its people, is a matter of nationalistic pride. Just like when Teddy Roosevelt started cruising around his turf in the Western Hemisphere, sporting a big stick, or when U.S. troops landed in Europe to help liberate the continent.

Certainly, in modern times colonies have become obsolete, because peoples in all corners of the world have developed nationalism and political consciousnesses and a taste for independence. And the founding ideology of the U.N. is that all nations, no matter how big or small or powerful, are equal (unless you're on the SC; then, you're more equal than others) and that every people has a right to self determination. Well, that is the prevailing philosophy of our times, but the thing is, we don't have to play by that. There's really nothing saying we can't regress to imperialism and start colonizing everything in sight with impunity. There's no U.N. here. You can annex if you want to.

I agree, hence why:

1. DP is a province and has the demographics it does

2. My other non-Syrixia claim, Rhuvanland, is its own nation

 

[Nebula]

All of the territory I control that isn't on the Nebulan island barely adds up to half of its total area. I think that the amount of territory taken up should be more important than the old three-claim rule.

 

[Felis]

All of the territory I control that isn't on the Nebulan island barely adds up to half of its total area. I think that the amount of territory taken up should be more important than the old three-claim rule.

Not counting North Cronaal into that?

 

[Nebula]

North Cronaal is a temporary addition. It'll be gone by September.

 

[Just a Lore]

I just want to say that colonies make zero sense in a modern setting.

While personally I wish I could agree with you but the fact of the matter is, they make atleast some sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_departments_and_territories_of_France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_of_New_Zealand

And those don't even include the colonies and dependencies of Norway, Denmark, Finland, Australia, China, The Netherlands,

 

[Darcania]

All of the territory I control that isn't on the Nebulan island barely adds up to half of its total area. I think that the amount of territory taken up should be more important than the old three-claim rule.

I don't think that would really work out. For example, my nation is small. Myroria's is even smaller. Then there's SillyString. How would colonies for those work out? They're all pretty good at economics at the least, so money isn't much of an issue. Sure, I'm not particularly interested and I doubt Myroria and SillyString would be interested (in my very, very limited understanding), but what about in the future?

Whether nations can take colonies and how fair it is ICly and OOCly is a very complex metric. The three-claim rule plus the cartography team's work in making sure it makes sense makes more sense, imo.

 

[Syrixia]

Being the claimant of an unapproved yet also undenied colony, how does this factor into such colony and whether it should be approved or denied. This would be a good test of such rules we have following this review.

1. It follows into the three-claim rule as I currently have 2 claims not including the colony.

2. It fits ICly, as explained by the thread "Delia Point: A History".

3. It's not excessively big.

 

[Nightsong]

I still think we need to set a size limit on claims since if we start accepting and allowing larger and larger claims, we will run out of room on the map and be back to square one with the cartographers having to add yet again more landmasses.

 

[SillyString]

If it were up to me, colonies would be heavily discouraged and frequently rejected. You're lucky Nierr is so gentle with y'all.

Darcania: Now that the new continents are out, I've actually considered RPing the construction of a fun new island over in their midst! But I don't want it to be SS2, and I don't have any other wacky ideas at the moment, so it's on hold for now.

 

[Kannex]

More importantly, we need limits on claim sizes.

 

[Sierra]

More importantly, we need limits on claim sizes.

I agree.

 

[Nebula]

That's what I said!

 

[Just a Lore]

More importantly, we need limits on claim sizes.

I am very against such a thing, besides the obvious problem creating a strict limit for something like this heavily leans into the slippery slope argument that I would hate to have to make. I honestly can not name one RP region in NS that has such a thing and I would be very sad if we started a trend of such draconian and arbitrary rules.

 

[Nightsong]

Lore, just to clarify I'm personally against a hard upper limit on claim size. I am for a guideline of sort of not claiming vast quantities of the map for yourself.

 

[St George]

You guys know the largest claim on the map is the size of Peru, right?

 

[Kannex]

The maximum area we have been allowed to claim on the map has been inconsistent. The largest area we have now is Great Bights Mum. That is very much larger than Sytarenne's early claim and RPI's claim, which were both rejected but were both larger than GBM's area. I'd like some clarification on this point, as those two claims weren't the only ones rejected before this recent unusual claim. Does GBM's status as a veteran have any bearing on this massive area granting? If so, I'd like some regulations as to how much time in the TNP can be corresponded to how much area on the map. I do not see this as arbitrary in any way. And also, it would help to clarify: how many claims are we allowed?

 

[St George]

Just a note, RPI's claim for a second nation, he already had land on the map. I deemed it to be too large for a second claim.

Everything is approached on a case-by-case basis. That's probably not going to change.

 

[Just a Lore]

Madjack and Kannex I would like to point out that RPI's second claim was eventually approved and given to him. And also when you factor in some other nations they are just as big. Kalti for instance when you factor together Callaici, Andalucia and Kalti which are three nations under one banner then they are the third largest.

But in all Kannex you do realize just how long GBM has been with TNP, more than a decade with atleast three terms as Delegate, so yeah we are going to be a little lenient with her then with nations that have just appeared or that have a history of being removed.

 

[Just a Lore]

Oh and also Kannex if you look a few posts down. Syratenne's original claim was NOT rejected, the size was up for negotiation and he replied to the offer to negotiate with scraping the claim and throwing a different claim up.

 

[Syrixia]

But in all Kannex you do realize just how long GBM has been with TNP, more than a decade with atleast three terms as Delegate, so yeah we are going to be a little lenient with her then with nations that have just appeared or that have a history of being removed.

Aha! We've caught you!

Last I checked, everyone has the same civil rights and everyone is equal before the law. Plus, I've never even seen GBM actually RP. And 20 BILLION PEOPLE? In a space the size of PERU? How was that accepted?! Just from a concerned citizen, but there should not be any special cases. Especially in roleplay.

 

[St George]

This map is not the property of the North Pacific nor am I beholden to her laws.

I own the map images and all related files, aside from the allied systems maps and anything else Lord Lore has created. Lore further has limited contributors rights to the claims map.

There is no catching people out here. I've always approached claims on a case-by-case basis and I think that you in particular should think twice before making large, emboldened declarations considering all the hours the cartography team has wasted trying to accommodate you and your frequently unacceptable claims and behaviour.

If the way I run this map - and saved this map after your and Alunya's hideous mismanagement of my creative content - is so unacceptable to you, then you're free to start your own map, using your image. I highly doubt you'll receive the response from the community you'd like, however.