Poposal: New Region Seal

Piscivore

Piscivore

TNPer
I've been thinking for some time that the seal we have for TNP is overly complex and old-fashioned. I knocked these together as a proposal, to get a conversation started:
8linNn5.png
 
TSP already did it. I think, as I said in the thread To Spice Things Up over in Hersfoldton, TNP needs a makeover too.

However I don't think we should drop the complexity level of our seal. The new seal should be just as complex, but more modern like your seals.
 
I confess, I prefer our current seal. Sorry, but thank you for your work.
 
But don't you think TNP needs a little modernizing? Something to make it sleek, like 2015ish? Here's an analogy.

streetinfo.jpg
great_ultra_modern_house_plans_designs_fresh_at.jpg
 
Your analogy not only isn't really applicable to TNP, it also presupposes that the latter is better because it is newer. It isn't. So the analogy itself is flawed.
 
It's not just newer, though. That's where you're incorrect. It's also sleeker, shinier, and looks way cooler. And it is applicable. The current seal can be seen as a normal, 2009-2010ish house. It looks alright but it's not really that sleek. In contrast, a new, more modern, more sleek seal would be like the modern 2014-2015 house.
 
Does it? Well, if you say so.

I'd rather a professional approach, which belies our age, our history and our position in NationStates. That seal is universally recognised in NationStates. It has flew over The North Pacific for a decade and is a symbol of this region's dedication to democracy.

I do not want to change the seal, or our flag. Change for the sake of change should be discouraged.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Does it? Well, if you say so.

I'd rather a professional approach, which belies our age, our history and our position in NationStates. That seal is universally recognised in NationStates. It has flew over The North Pacific for a decade and is a symbol of this region's dedication to democracy.

I do not want to change the seal, or our flag. Change for the sake of change should be discouraged.
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Then how come TSP changed theirs? How come TEP changed their flag? If change for the sake of change is unprofessional, I cite those examples as proof against that.

Change is good once in a while; I accept it with open arms.

Piscivore:
Syrixia:
But don't you think TNP needs a little modernizing? Something to make it sleek, like 2015ish? Here's an analogy.

streetinfo.jpg
great_ultra_modern_house_plans_designs_fresh_at.jpg
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No analogies needed:
http://schrivers.blogspot.com/2015/04/branding-evolution-of-logo.html
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See?
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
Does it? Well, if you say so.

I'd rather a professional approach, which belies our age, our history and our position in NationStates. That seal is universally recognised in NationStates. It has flew over The North Pacific for a decade and is a symbol of this region's dedication to democracy.

I do not want to change the seal, or our flag. Change for the sake of change should be discouraged.
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So should "but it's always been that way" be discouraged. Being ten years old is as good an argument for freshening up and modernizing as it is for clinging to something awkward and ugly.
 
You will just ignore everyone who disagrees with you (as per normal), so I shall not waste my time debating with you.

Good luck getting enough support to get this to pass the RA. Chapter 8 of the LC.

--

That seal is not awkward and ugly. Ugh. Insulting a flag just because you don't like it is all well enough but for goodness sake that flag has served us well, and has not been besmirched in such a way that necessitates change.
 
I confess, I don't see what is complicated about it.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
You will just ignore everyone who disagrees with you (as per normal), so I shall not waste my time debating with you.
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That's kind of rude.

Lord Ravenclaw:
That seal is not awkward and ugly. Ugh. Insulting a flag just because you don't like it is all well enough but for goodness sake that flag has served us well, and has not been besmirched in such a way that necessitates change.
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It's not awkward and ugly? what are all those little dangly balls everywhere? Are they meant to be sword hilts? Compass points? Anchors? it's a mess. And the whole thing is redolent of 17th century France. Are we in the Palace of Versailles? I don't think so...
 
The first part was aimed at Syrixia.

Of all the things I have heard to refer to TNP, 17th Century France, is not one of them.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
The first part was aimed at Syrixia.
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My apologies then.

Lord Ravenclaw:
Of all the things I have heard to refer to TNP, 17th Century France, is not one of them.
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That's rather my point; our seal does not represent the region very well, at least from a design or iconography perspective.
 
Piscivore:
Lord Ravenclaw:
You will just ignore everyone who disagrees with you (as per normal), so I shall not waste my time debating with you.

Good luck getting enough support to get this to pass the RA. Chapter 8 of the LC.

--

That seal is not awkward and ugly. Ugh. Insulting a flag just because you don't like it is all well enough but for goodness sake that flag has served us well, and has not been besmirched in such a way that necessitates change.
Click to expand...
That's kind of rude.

It's not awkward and ugly? what are all those little dangly balls everywhere? Are they meant to be sword hilts> Compass points? Anchors? it's a mess. And the whole thing is redolent of 17th century France. Are we in the Palace of Versailles? I don't think so...
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This. We need to modernize! It'll look so much better. Just ask Tsunamy. The old TSP seal was similar to TNP's seal until they changed it. It looks so much better and sleeker now. You can't deny that.
 
Lord Ravenclaw:
The first part was aimed at Syrixia.

Of all the things I have heard to refer to TNP, 17th Century France, is not one of them.
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Chapter 8 of the LC can be easily amended. I could even make a new flag with the new seal on it using a nice new design if needed.
 
This isn't TSP. This isn't TEP. And whilst both regions are valued partners, just because they do something, doesn't mean we should.

As it stands, I see no better alternative to the currently seal, and no amount of 'but they did this' or 'we need to modernise because reasons' is changing that from what I see.
 
Nierr:
This isn't TSP. This isn't TEP. And whilst both regions are valued partners, just because they do something, doesn't mean we should.

As it stands, I see no better alternative to the currently seal, and no amount of 'but they did this' or 'we need to modernise because reasons' is changing that from what I see.
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This ^

I like our seal. I am proud to use that seal, and I am proud to be able to deploy diplomats who use that seal. I am also proud to have been the Minister of Culture who presented the Flag Day Bill to the RA.
 
Then why did they modernize? It doesn't appear they had a reason either.
 
First, let's get this point through before I begin. Looking just at the join dates of the members "debating", though I will use that term loosely, we have members from 2014 proposing change to those who at the youngest joined in 2012. Now, with that over with, I'll start my debating.

We are not The South Pacific. Yes, we have the same creator, but that's pretty much where we branch off. If you read the section about our seal in the Legal Code, you'll see who made the seal and flag. ThelDRan. That name probably sounds familiar to users since most of the main non-governmental forum is in a section named after him, "Port Thel". It was named as such because Thel was a great cartographer, having kept up with the "Geographica Pacifica Borealis", the predecessor to Map Nexus. The next name listed beside the seal and flag is Gulliver, former Speaker of the Regional Assembly. Gulliver served his region well and I know he is honored by the seal. Lastly, there is Eluvatar. He needs no introduction, however, for fun, I'll list his accomplishments. I don't believe there are too many positions this Root Admin hasn't held. Elu has served his region for a decade and plus, and has paved the way for the region and this forum. He also created FriarTuck, which is one of the most helpful bots I know, except when he doesn't respond to my commands (sorry FT, I love you but you sometimes are stupid.) Finally, Elu is also a key figure in NS++, an extension for NationStates.

Therefore, unless there are individuals like that who have truly served our region, and know what changing the seal and flag will change for our region, I am against changing anything of the sort.
 
It's not a seal or a logo. It's a coat of arms. It doesn't need changing or modernization. It's a symbol of a uniform and long-lasting government.
 
I remain against keeping the seal in favor of changing it but if you insist. We still, at least, need that awesome theme. But I'll wait for Elu to be free enough to talk about it. :)
 
Piscivore:
I've been thinking for some time that the seal we have for TNP is overly complex and old-fashioned. I knocked these together as a proposal, to get a conversation started:
8linNn5.png
Click to expand...

arms.png


The current seal does have a number of elements. The inner shield has a region gules and waves of argent and bleu celeste under laurels vert. The inner shield has a border or, and is situated on another shield azure. The full shield is surrounded by a scroll carnation and is set on a compass sable and or compass. It is crowned by a four-tower castle.

It is a more or less traditional coat of arms. The bleu celeste waves represent the North Pacific ocean. The Laurels represented the United Nations, but are stylized enough to also connote with the World Assembly in my opinion. The darker blue background of the outer shield, like the blue segments of the flag, link both to our nautical name and the traditional association of the color blue with democratic government in The North Pacific. The surrounding scroll can be understood to represent the comprehensive nature of our legal system. The castle crown is in keeping with the traditional heraldry of cities which, like TNP, had democratic government.

I have no objection to composing additional symbols for The North Pacific. It gets old, after all, seeing our seal on our flag, all our seals, and in association with all other government documents. I could easily conceive of a logo suiting The Northern Lights better than the seal does, for example. It could also be useful to come up with a battle flag for The North Pacific Army, if one can be developed that they like. Other possibilities likely exist that I have come up with or remembered.

I would not, however, support abandoning our traditional coat of arms entirely.
 
Piscivore:
plembobria:
It's a coat of arms.
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What century is this?
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Unlike seals, coats of arms have never been modernized and should remain unmodernized so they retain their value, the value that they were intended to convey.

If TNP's seal is actually a coat of arms, then I'm switching sides because it just makes sense.
 
TNP's form of government has been (relatively) stable for a long period of time, which is something to take joy in and pay homage to with our coat of arms. We have an identity, and something that identifies us is that image. And knowing Thel, as Elu has already explained, the elements were all chosen quite deliberately.

I would worry about having multiple images associated with TNP (for Army, paper, etc), but if there was a clear association between them I could see it making sense.
 
Your state has a seal, which as a symbol of government authority dates back to Ancient Egypt and even further to Mesopotamia.

It is almost entirely the same thing as a coat of arms.
 
Nierr:
Your state has a seal, which as a symbol of government authority dates back to Ancient Egypt and even further to Mesopotamia.

It is almost entirely the same thing as a coat of arms.
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. . . without the feudal/monarchal undertones or the irrational emotional investment.
 
Former English Colony:
Piscivore:
Nierr:
Piscivore:
plembobria:
It's a coat of arms.
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What century is this?
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The century where every town, city, region and country have their own coat of arms?
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Not where I'm from. Neither my state nor my town has one.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seals_of_the_U.S._states <-- no? Your state *is* there.
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No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_arms_of_the_U.S._states <-- My state is *not* there.
 
And you are making a rather arbitrary divide between coats of arms and seals when functionally they are the same thing.

If you feel like TNP having a coat of arms is... ahem, feudal, in any way, perhaps you need to... get over it?
 
SillyString:
Piscivore:
. . . without the feudal/monarchal undertones or the irrational emotional investment.
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Good thing TNP is a monarchy, huh? :w00t:
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Good lord. :duh:

Kay was right; Human thought is so primitive it should be looked upon as an infectious disease. :P

We've gotten pretty far off the track here; I didn't realize there was so much emotional investment at play. I don't have any reverence at all for tradition or heritage, I just saw an aesthetically unflattering icon and thought we could do better.
 
On the subject of feudalism, Piscivore would have a far better case if the arms were helmed by a knightly helmet and/or a royal, noble, or even baronial crown. Instead, it bears a castle, much like chartered cities with elected governments do.
 
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