Questions for Zenny

The Vice Delegate has rejected Zenny's application for Citizenship, which leads to an automatic Regional Assembly vote on whether or not to uphold said rejection.

I have some questions to Zenny in relation to her application:

1. Why do you wish to join The North Pacific Regional Assembly now (as opposed to a few months ago, or a few months from now)?

2. Why, in your own words, did you choose for The Communist Bloc to support the NPO takeover of Lazarus as the "New Lazarene Order"?

3. If the NPO were to somehow seize the Delegacy of The North Pacific, would your reaction be different, and why or why not?

4. Is Zennyism applicable in The North Pacific, and why or why not?

5. How would you characterize your involvement, if any, in the NLO itself?

6. To what or whom do you credit the stunning growth of The Communist Bloc?

7. Why is the Earth an oblate ellipsoid rather than a sphere?

Eluvatar:

The Vice Delegate has rejected Zenny's application for Citizenship, which leads to an automatic Regional Assembly vote on whether or not to uphold said rejection.

I have some questions to Zenny in relation to her application:

1. Why do you wish to join The North Pacific Regional Assembly now (as opposed to a few months ago, or a few months from now)?

2. Why, in your own words, did you choose for The Communist Bloc to support the NPO takeover of Lazarus as the "New Lazarene Order"?

3. If the NPO were to somehow seize the Delegacy of The North Pacific, would your reaction be different, and why or why not?

4. Is Zennyism applicable in The North Pacific, and why or why not?

5. How would you characterize your involvement, if any, in the NLO itself?

6. To what or whom do you credit the stunning growth of The Communist Bloc?

7. Why is the Earth an oblate ellipsoid rather than a sphere?

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1. TNP and TCB have coordinated in the past, most recently when we aided this region with its delegacy transfer. I spoke with a few TNP officials during the Lazarus situation and I felt assured that TNP and TCB were on good terms and we would not be punished for support of the coup, as I made my intentions and plans very clear when I was asked about them. After spending nearly 2 months in channels like #tnp and the recent discussions on regional politics in that channel, I thought it would be nice to at least see what there is to offer and see if I could have a place in the region to contribute. I've served in mutitple posts in Europeia, British Isles, and other large UCRs but have yet to find a GCR where I've been able to get properly involved and regularly active for extended periods of time, but I had not tried out TNP so I thought that filling out an application for citizenship would be a good start to at least see whats available.

2. The People's Republic had become increasingly hostile towards our region, claiming we were monarchists and taking the side of those who had gone out of their way to condemn us, sabotage us, and infiltrate us via false citizenship applications and changing IPs. Its no secret that the PRL was stagnant and inactive, and I still beleive that a new and more democratic system would not have only aided in terms of their internal activity, but also been more properly representative of the residents of Lazarus. The exiles have claimed that their eyes have been opened to democracy though, so my opinion could change in the future based on whether Lazarus actually takes concrete steps to have a democratic form of governance.

3. I consider TNP our friends. I would not order my men and women to help secure your delegacy if I did not want to keep it in the rightful hands of the elected Delegate. I would strongly oppose any seizure of TNP's delegacy by any region or organization.

4. Zennyism isn't region specific. Its just a basic list of ideas that I put a little time into. So I guess its applicable to TNP? I mean at least parts of it are of course applicable to any region, I mean one of the ideas is just: Have a forum! Forum organization is much more effective than RMB rule and TCB is one of the only leftist UCRs that uses a forum for its regional government. So yes, Zennyism is applicable to all regions as its just a small guide to creating what I see as an independent, democratic, collectivist society. Its not a world view or some broad philosophy, it just gives a list of ideas on how users can go about creating a stable internal political environment through strong organization, close social interaction between users, a strong military, and a strictly independent stance in issues regarding foreign affairs, military decision making, and the region's internal democratic process.

5. I ordered our soldiers to endorse the Delegate and his endorsees. That is as far as my involvement went, and they were grateful for our support. I was not apart of the "inner circle" I guess which would have included Stuj, Milo, and the other endorsees. I only wanted to provide support.

6. The generosity of our people to donate and a good telegram.

7. I don't know about you, but I'm feeling 22. Everything will be alright if you keep me next to you. You don't know about me, but I'll bet you want to. Everything will be alright if we just keep dancing like we're 22.

You seem incredibly blasé about supporting a universally detested coup.

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

1. Why do you wish to join The North Pacific Regional Assembly now (as opposed to a few months ago, or a few months from now)?

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1. TNP and TCB have coordinated in the past, most recently when we aided this region with its delegacy transfer. I spoke with a few TNP officials during the Lazarus situation and I felt assured that TNP and TCB were on good terms and we would not be punished for support of the coup, as I made my intentions and plans very clear when I was asked about them. After spending nearly 2 months in channels like #tnp and the recent discussions on regional politics in that channel, I thought it would be nice to at least see what there is to offer and see if I could have a place in the region to contribute. I've served in mutitple posts in Europeia, British Isles, and other large UCRs but have yet to find a GCR where I've been able to get properly involved and regularly active for extended periods of time, but I had not tried out TNP so I thought that filling out an application for citizenship would be a good start to at least see whats available.

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I see.

Would you see a rejection of your citizenship application as bearing on relations between TNP and TCB? Why or why not?

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

2. Why, in your own words, did you choose for The Communist Bloc to support the NPO takeover of Lazarus as the "New Lazarene Order"?

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2. The People's Republic had become increasingly hostile towards our region, claiming we were monarchists and taking the side of those who had gone out of their way to condemn us, sabotage us, and infiltrate us via false citizenship applications and changing IPs. Its no secret that the PRL was stagnant and inactive, and I still beleive that a new and more democratic system would not have only aided in terms of their internal activity, but also been more properly representative of the residents of Lazarus. The exiles have claimed that their eyes have been opened to democracy though, so my opinion could change in the future based on whether Lazarus actually takes concrete steps to have a democratic form of governance.

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By those who sabotaged you, whom do you mean?

Do you mean to say you expected the NLO to be more democratic than the PRL?

What steps, beyond holding a constitutional convention including votes on all major questions and even which working document of several to work from, need Lazarus take?

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

3. If the NPO were to somehow seize the Delegacy of The North Pacific, would your reaction be different, and why or why not?

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3. I consider TNP our friends. I would not order my men and women to help secure your delegacy if I did not want to keep it in the rightful hands of the elected Delegate. I would strongly oppose any seizure of TNP's delegacy by any region or organization.

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A solid answer. I'm not certain that it fully answers the particular question I asked, though. I should probably have phrased it more clearly.

In my question I assume that the NPO has somehow come into control of the Delegacy already. Let's say it's a similar situation to Lazarus. An NPO plant becomes Delegate legally, and positions cronies in positions of power such that they eventually feel secure in banjecting the previous Delegate for criticizing them and changing the forum linked in the World Factbook Entry to the NPO forum.

How would your reaction differ and why?

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

4. Is Zennyism applicable in The North Pacific, and why or why not?

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4. Zennyism isn't region specific. Its just a basic list of ideas that I put a little time into. So I guess its applicable to TNP? I mean at least parts of it are of course applicable to any region, I mean one of the ideas is just: Have a forum! Forum organization is much more effective than RMB rule and TCB is one of the only leftist UCRs that uses a forum for its regional government. So yes, Zennyism is applicable to all regions as its just a small guide to creating what I see as an independent, democratic, collectivist society. Its not a world view or some broad philosophy, it just gives a list of ideas on how users can go about creating a stable internal political environment through strong organization, close social interaction between users, a strong military, and a strictly independent stance in issues regarding foreign affairs, military decision making, and the region's internal democratic process.

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What is a strictly independent stance?

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

5. How would you characterize your involvement, if any, in the NLO itself?

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5. I ordered our soldiers to endorse the Delegate and his endorsees. That is as far as my involvement went, and they were grateful for our support. I was not apart of the "inner circle" I guess which would have included Stuj, Milo, and the other endorsees. I only wanted to provide support.

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Thank you for your answer.

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

6. To what or whom do you credit the stunning growth of The Communist Bloc?

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6. The generosity of our people to donate and a good telegram.

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Thank you for your answer.

Zenny:

Eluvatar:

7. Why is the Earth an oblate ellipsoid rather than a sphere?

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7. I don't know about you, but I'm feeling 22. Everything will be alright if you keep me next to you. You don't know about me, but I'll bet you want to. Everything will be alright if we just keep dancing like we're 22.

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While every answer is a response, not every response is an answer.

That is a similarly silly response, but not an answer to my silly question.

Would you see a rejection of your citizenship application as bearing on relations between TNP and TCB? Why or why not?

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The head of government being considered a security threat to TNP would be a negative development in relations.

By those who sabotaged you, whom do you mean?

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Specifically I was refering to The Internationale and their military The Red Fleet. They have repeatedly tried to send users into our region using puppets, the identities of actual residents, and regularly changing IP addresses to subvert our election process & create internal conflict and have coordinated with regions such as North Korea and Das Kommune to do so.

Do you mean to say you expected the NLO to be more democratic than the PRL?

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I had hoped to become involved with the NLO after things had become more stable (possibly as citizen, but I never got around to applying for NLO citizenship) to see if I could make a positive change in the organization and procedure, so I did hope for some form of democratic governance.

What steps, beyond holding a constitutional convention including votes on all major questions and even which working document of several to work from, need Lazarus take?

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I think that would a very great start. I'm of the opinion that strong democratic traditions should be established over a long period of time, but I will not hold Lazarus to that standard. Again, my main issues were the stagnant government and the support of those who have committed crimes against us when we had not provoked Lazarus.

In my question I assume that the NPO has somehow come into control of the Delegacy already. Let's say it's a similar situation to Lazarus. An NPO plant becomes Delegate legally, and positions cronies in positions of power such that they eventually feel secure in banjecting the previous Delegate for criticizing them and changing the forum linked in the World Factbook Entry to the NPO forum.

How would your reaction differ and why?

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No, I would not support that action. TNP as far as I can tell is a prosperous democracy which is inclusive of all its citizens and residents, fostering a strong & active community.

What is a strictly independent stance?

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For me it is not bowing down to foriegn pressure or interests when making decisions, always having the interests of the region first in mind. It is a more difficult path to follow during major situations like Lazarus due to public opinion, but I still beleive that I did what was in line with the interests of my home region. As apart of my committment to regionalism and independence, I long ago resigned all my foriegn positions outside of TCB and have not accepted or seeked any positions in other regions.

Zenny:

Would you see a rejection of your citizenship application as bearing on relations between TNP and TCB? Why or why not?

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The head of government being considered a security threat to TNP would be a negative development in relations.

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So you see no distinction between Zenny4, Zenya, and Zenny?

Zenny:

By those who sabotaged you, whom do you mean?

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Specifically I was refering to The Internationale and their military The Red Fleet. They have repeatedly tried to send users into our region using puppets, the identities of actual residents, and regularly changing IP addresses to subvert our election process & create internal conflict and have coordinated with regions such as North Korea and Das Kommune to do so.

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The North Pacific Army has, at times in the past, worked with The Red Fleet against Nazis, including in Anne Frank (where TCB also participated) and Anti Nazi Alliance. What distinction, if any, do you see between the PRL's involvement with The Red Fleet and ours?

Zenny:

Do you mean to say you expected the NLO to be more democratic than the PRL?

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I had hoped to become involved with the NLO after things had become more stable (possibly as citizen, but I never got around to applying for NLO citizenship) to see if I could make a positive change in the organization and procedure, so I did hope for some form of democratic governance.

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Thank you for your answer.

Zenny:

What steps, beyond holding a constitutional convention including votes on all major questions and even which working document of several to work from, need Lazarus take?

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I think that would a very great start. I'm of the opinion that strong democratic traditions should be established over a long period of time, but I will not hold Lazarus to that standard. Again, my main issues were the stagnant government and the support of those who have committed crimes against us when we had not provoked Lazarus.

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I should clarify that the steps I mention are steps that have already been taken by the Lazarenes.

What characterizes a government as stagnant and is it a necessary condition for you to support an NPO overthrow of it (or is supporting your enemies enough)?

Zenny:

In my question I assume that the NPO has somehow come into control of the Delegacy already. Let's say it's a similar situation to Lazarus. An NPO plant becomes Delegate legally, and positions cronies in positions of power such that they eventually feel secure in banjecting the previous Delegate for criticizing them and changing the forum linked in the World Factbook Entry to the NPO forum.

How would your reaction differ and why?

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No, I would not support that action. TNP as far as I can tell is a prosperous democracy which is inclusive of all its citizens and residents, fostering a strong & active community.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your answer.

Zenny:

What is a strictly independent stance?

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For me it is not bowing down to foriegn pressure or interests when making decisions, always having the interests of the region first in mind. It is a more difficult path to follow during major situations like Lazarus due to public opinion, but I still beleive that I did what was in line with the interests of my home region. As apart of my committment to regionalism and independence, I long ago resigned all my foriegn positions outside of TCB and have not accepted or seeked any positions in other regions.

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It seems from your answer (please correct me if I'm wrong) that regionalism to you mean strict loyalty to your primary home, TCB.

How would you like us to see the asymmetry you suggest (of pursuing citizenship, with voting rights, here, but no office, and holding offices in TCB)?

So you see no distinction between Zenny4, Zenya, and Zenny?

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No, they are all my nations. It would make no difference to me which puppet I used to apply for citizenship. I've been apart of this forum since December of last year so I didn't think which nation I used mattered.

The North Pacific Army has, at times in the past, worked with The Red Fleet against Nazis, including in Anne Frank (where TCB also participated) and Anti Nazi Alliance. What distinction, if any, do you see between the PRL's involvement with The Red Fleet and ours?

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I have no issue with TNP working with TRF as we did to smash Nazi scum. They are an enemy of all of NationStates and I would personally work alongside our enemies if it meant further pushing back fascism into a corner, which we did on multiple occasions, most notable Anne Frank and Nazi Europe. Chairman Funkadelia had said publicly that he agreed that TCB were monarchists and that our government was "a farce", backing up claims made by The Internationale/TRF's newspaper, The Red and Black. TNP has never backed up stupid conspiracy theories pushed by The Internationale/TRF or supported their activities against us. We see such support as a provocation, pushing propaganda against our democratically elected government.

What characterizes a government as stagnant and is it a necessary condition for you to support an NPO overthrow of it (or is supporting your enemies enough)?

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Little to no activity. And I feel like I'm repeating myself, we had more than one reason to want the PRL gone, I would not support an overthrow simply because of low activity. Had they not supported our enemies and turned their backs on us, we would not have pledged our support for the operation and would have most likely stayed out of the event alltogether.

How would you like us to see the asymmetry you suggest (of pursuing citizenship, with voting rights, here, but no office, and holding offices in TCB)?

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I don't mind how people see it. I see it as dedication to my home region, I don't wish to become very involved politically in any other region and have done pretty well the last 6 months. TNP's politics interest me of course, but I join most regions these days to socialize and meet new people (again, what pushed me to join was being in #tnp the last 2 months and seeing all the chatter, a strong community like TNP's is very attractive), at the most maybe take on some assistant role to help run a festival or post updates in embassies.

Zenny:

The head of government being considered a security threat to TNP would be a negative development in relations.

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I find it interesting and somewhat hilarious that you don't think The Communist Bloc's regional support for the NPO/NLO occupation of a fellow GCR should be a negative development in relations, or that it should be an impediment to your citizenship here, but you do think The North Pacific rejecting your individual citizenship should be a negative development in relations between entire regions.

I was already going to vote to uphold rejection of your citizenship application, but after this veiled threat -- like The North Pacific should even care about "a negative development in relations" with an irrelevant user-created region that supported autocrats occupying a fellow GCR -- I don't know how anyone could vote to admit you to citizenship. You are the reason you haven't been welcome in any GCR, Zenny, and I hope this one won't be an exception.

Great Brigantia:

I was already going to vote to uphold rejection of your citizenship application, but after this veiled threat I don't know how anyone could vote to admit you to citizenship.

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Indeed, I was leaning toward an Aye, or at least an Abstain, but after that, I'm definitely leaning heavily toward Nay.

Great Brigantia:

Zenny:

The head of government being considered a security threat to TNP would be a negative development in relations.

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this veiled threat

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I would never threaten a region which has never provoked us. This was not a threat, it was a very clear fact. I don't see how I am a security threat. I'm a productive member of many regions.

And what GCRs do you refer to? I'm very welcome in Balder, and TNP is the only other GCR I have applied for citizenship in. So to say that I am not welcome in all the GCRs because Lazarus doesn't like me is a complete lie.

Zenny:

And what GCRs do you refer to? I'm very welcome in Balder, and TNP is the only other GCR I have applied for citizenship in. So to say that I am not welcome in all the GCRs because Lazarus doesn't like me is a complete lie.

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You were not welcome in Osiris either even before your support for an autocratic GCR coups, as was made very clear to you, and I think you would find yourself unwelcome in several others if you were to apply.

I'd like to withdraw my citizenship application.

If this is how I would start in TNP, I don't think anyone would be willing to socialize with me, let alone be my friend. I just don't think after this I'd be accepted into the region culturally even if by some chance I was approved, which judging by all opinions thusfar in this thread, is very unlikely.

I sincerely apologize for being dispruptive to the trainquility of the region with my application for citizenship and for wasting the time of those who have asked me quetions. I will move my nation from TNP shortly and I promise to not return to TNP gameside or this forum and be a further nuisance.

Thank you.

That is unfortunate. There are some vocal critics of allowing you membership, but you probably had a decent chance to gain membership.

I was going to vote to allow you citizenship just for fun. Too bad.

I was going to vote for your admittance because I was given a second chance here a long time ago...

I would vote for Zenny's admittance.

I too am sorry that you have chosen to withdraw your application. My intention in blocking was not necessarily to keep you from citizenship, but rather because I believed it an important enough question given the recent issue in Lazarus to put it to a vote of the RA.

:boom


Silly String, you set her up. I think the only thing you're truly sorry about was that she withdrew before you got the chance to finish your campaign against her.


This is not what TNP is supposed to be about.

Great Bights Mum:

:boom


Silly String, you set her up. I think the only thing you're truly sorry about was that she withdrew before you got the chance to finish your campaign against her.


This is not what TNP is supposed to be about.

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I have no idea where you're getting that idea from.

As I said to the SC, I believed her application merited more careful consideration, and I requested input from both the SC and other members of the community before I ultimately decided to block it - basing my decision largely on the aggregate input. And as I then said to the RA in my explanation,

In this case, I believe the ultimate decision on admittance must lie with the RA.

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I have been very careful with my posts on the matter to not weigh in, beyond the original provision of the reasoning behind why denial might be merited, on whether the RA should uphold the rejection. I was serious about the decision being the RA's, not mine, and thus my additional posts have been restricted to commenting on tangential matters.

I have no idea what "campaign" you think it is I'm waging that I haven't "finished". Under the law, the vote on her application must still occur - so if all I were interested in were persecution, I could have achieved that without posting anything of the sort.

My post was entirely genuine. I am sorry she chose to withdraw her application, and I'm certainly not happy about this thread devolving from an opportunity to ask questions into an opportunity to criticize and attack. I did not take part in doing so, nor did I encourage it from other TNPers. Sadly, despite my otherwise awesome power, controlling other players is not something I can do.

If you really think that any (let alone all!) of this was simply about persecuting somebody, I would suggest that you vote for somebody else for Vice Delegate, as engaging in that sort of behavior would render me unfit for office.

I think that's a mighty big assumption to make about someone who has carried herself with a great deal of integrity here, GBM. It's not like supporting a coup against another GCR is some trumped up B.S. concern, it's a legitimate concern and one the RA should weigh in on.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen GBM use such strong language.

That's rare.

I think, rather, I believe what you say was your intent SS. If so, I think the way you went about it was poor. I do believe there are vocal opponents of Zenny and they certainly have their right to speak and vote. I am ambivalent because I believe what makes TNP strong is our diversity. Diversity brings a level of balance many other regions do not have because their are restrictive in their laws or their practices.

Zenny, I can say i like would have voted in favor of your application. Withdrawing makes me less inclined only in that I have a disdain for people who give up so easily. That's a personal pet-peeve and certainly not anything i'd advocate others to have.

It is a shame that we have pushed an active player away for actions that did not affect TNP.

Gracius Maximus:

It is a shame that we have pushed an active player away for actions that did not affect TNP.

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Thats the thing it did effect TNP. And most of the questions and concerns were valid. TNP was de facto at war with TCB during the NLO incident. And especially since there is not even an illusion of duality the actions of President Zenny were directly linked to the Zenny who applied for citizenship.

From a logical point of view, there is no way that it can be justified that Zenny is a security threat to TNP for playing a minor role in the Lazarus conflict on the side of NPO - whilst the Regent of NPO, Pierconium, resides here as Attorney General.

Either she is a security threat to TNP, in which case he is an infinitely greater threat - or neither of them are. I'd rather suggest the latter to be honest, as I see no mechanism by which either of them are a demonstrable security threat per se, especially given the lack of WA status here.

This clearly has very little to do with security, and much more to do with the personalities involved.

North East Somerset:

From a logical point of view, there is no way that it can be justified that Zenny is a security threat to TNP for playing a minor role in the Lazarus conflict on the side of NPO - whilst the Regent of NPO, Pierconium, resides here as Attorney General.

Either she is a security threat to TNP, in which case he is an infinitely greater threat - or neither of them are. I'd rather suggest the latter to be honest, as I see no mechanism by which either of them are a demonstrable security threat per se, especially given the lack of WA status here.

This clearly has very little to do with security, and much more to do with the personalities involved.

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That's odd. I thought I was the elected Attorney General of TNP.

Also, until about 20 days ago The Imperator's Fortress State of Gracius Maximus was in the World Assembly with quite a few (not a lot ~80 but no swapping) endorsements. I do not believe I was considered to be a threat to regional security at that point either.

Zenny:

I'd like to withdraw my citizenship application.

If this is how I would start in TNP, I don't think anyone would be willing to socialize with me, let alone be my friend. I just don't think after this I'd be accepted into the region culturally even if by some chance I was approved, which judging by all opinions thusfar in this thread, is very unlikely.

I sincerely apologize for being dispruptive to the trainquility of the region with my application for citizenship and for wasting the time of those who have asked me quetions. I will move my nation from TNP shortly and I promise to not return to TNP gameside or this forum and be a further nuisance.

Thank you.

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I'm sorry to hear that, I was just starting to like you.