Tech Levels [Discussion]

St George

RolePlay Moderator
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Basically, general discussion on tech levels and stuff.

Some terms:

PT: Past tech, usually anything up to about 25 to 10 years ago.

MT: Modern tech, now/10 years minus to 10 to 25 years in the future.

PMT: Post-Modern Tech, 25 to 100 years in the future, some sub-light space travel etc

FT: Future tech, sci-fi n stuff.
 
I personally support PMT in the lower extremes. And on the topic of light space travel, this could integrate well with multi-species if done properly. An example could be a non-human species coming from a said planet in the solar system.
 
I think when you say Past Tech, there should be more distinction between types of Past-Tech e.g. Roman-style Legions are vastly different from 13th-century knights which are vastly different from 16th century pike and shot formations which are vastly different from 18th century musketmen which are vastly different from WWI entrenched infantry which are vastly different from WWII Panzerdivisionen which are vastly different from Cold-War-era combined-arms forces... Besides, if we are to say that Past Tech starts at 25 years ago, then by that logic much of the equipment from even the most modern of real-life armed forces is by definition Past Tech, since there's simply been no compelling reason to replace their equipment as quickly as we did in the Cold War. Heck, even the F-22 would meet Past Tech definitions, seeing as to how it was designed and the prototypes built by 1991 (~24 years ago), though it only officially entered service in 2005.

I believe there should also be a conscious distinction between what can be done at each tech level, and what has been done at each tech level e.g. SSTO (Single-Stage-To-Orbit) space shuttles and colonies on the moon and Mars are in fact within the realm of possibility of Modern-Tech, it's just that nobody has spent the money and production capacity to seriously build and use them. Likewise, certain types of electromagnetic weapons (railguns, coilguns, etc.), some directed-energy weapons (high-energy lasers, microwave emitters, etc.), non-petroleum-based fuels, miniaturized (somewhat), safe and difficult-to-melt-down fission reactors, and various other technologies ascribed to PMT or even FT are actually quite viable with purely MT. There do have to be distinctions though: the US Military's Active Denial System (a non-lethal microwave weapon) and hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines (predates gasoline and diesel!) are quite different from Star Trek phasers and antimatter-powered flying cars. I'm just saying that classifying entire categories of technologies as "too advanced therefore not allowed here" or "does not exist = not MT" is incorrect, and there has to be a certain degree of distinction between what looks like it's at a certain tech-level, and what is at a certain tech level.

And another question, what if an RP'er's technology level is by their canon supposed to be at a higher technology level? Do we force them to use less advanced technology to match that of the other RP'ers, or is it acceptable for them to keep their higher tech but with balancing requirements e.g. advanced infantry armour has weak points and cannot protect against explosive force, coilgun-equipped tanks shoot slower because they have to recharge their weapon, orbiting weapons satellites can only fire every half-hour/hour/2h/needs correct orbit alignment (actually quite a large factor in reality) and is very big, fragile and expensive, etc.?

While the vast majority of RP's here and elsewhere relating to NS use MT almost-exclusively, I have seen a fairly large number of nations that actually use completely different technology level for their written canon. One of the things I have seen is that many people who chose to use non-standard technologies (and socio-economic systems), even with excellent and scientifically grounded explanations, cannot do so to as great of an extent as they would like because of the prevailing meta of "MT r00lz" and "anything but MT and conventional economy = godmod, GTFO" in serious international RP's, P2TM and specifically-labelled "Other Tech" RP's notwithstanding. This is something that I feel as well, and some of my hesitance to post any of the information I have written for my nation is because of the aforementioned narrow-mindedness of so many RP'ers in both the TNP and NS RP forums. If one is creating their canon with RP in mind, they'll find that their creativity is either quite heavily restricted, or outright impossible to use with all but a small fraction of active RP'ers.

And in all of this of course, we are assuming that NS' own "Scientific Advancement" and "Primitiveness" stats are absolutely, thoroughly and totally irrelevant. :insert smiley here:
 
Any FT rps shouldn't take place in normal TNP canon, imho. So people if they want can rp FT, but not as part of general TNP RP.
 
Sasten:
I think when you say Past Tech, there should be more distinction between types of Past-Tech e.g. Roman-style Legions are vastly different from 13th-century knights which are vastly different from 16th century pike and shot formations which are vastly different from 18th century musketmen which are vastly different from WWI entrenched infantry which are vastly different from WWII Panzerdivisionen which are vastly different from Cold-War-era combined-arms forces...
Past tech is past tech, no matter what period of time you're taking from. There's no point in differentiating when so few people even RP past tech - and besides that, people will normally say what kind of level things are at in any particular RP.
 
Nierr:
Any FT rps shouldn't take place in normal TNP canon, imho. So people if they want can rp FT, but not as part of general TNP RP.
So they can RP FT, but they can't RP FT...? Colour me rather confused.

I do understand where this whole "no FT" comes from; such differences in technology level must usually either be nerfed beyond the threshold of impossibility to be balanced fairly, or will inevitably appear to be godmodding to anyone in the RP who isn't FT. That being said, categorically excluding certain tech levels from the general TNP RP (if I understand your opinion correctly) is not a good idea, as it could discourage quite a few people from RP'ing here. And then we get into the "what exactly is FT" debate...

I think we should just use the "rule of enjoyment" (or whatever other title it carries): If you dislike an RP, for whatever reason, do not join that RP and then complain about it or rail about how such content should be disallowed because you "don't like it". Ludicrously advanced FT nations will have vastly fewer RP partners, of that I am aware. However, I just do not think that categorically excluding them from the rest of our regional RP-life based solely on their primary canon and RP material being FT is a good idea, or even morally/ethically justifiable as it is borderline discrimination.
Nierr:
Past tech is past tech, no matter what period of time you're taking from. There's no point in differentiating when so few people even RP past tech - and besides that, people will normally say what kind of level things are at in any particular RP.
Fair enough, though some people may think otherwise. I was mainly saying that a hard 10-25 year definition of MT vs PT is quite inflexible and cannot always accurately represent what MT and PT actually are. Note the verbosity of my reply.

I do however wish to convey my opinion that the boundaries between tech levels are not black and white, especially considering the rapidity of technological advancement, coupled with declining budgets in the present day.
 
I generally lean toward modern tech with slight post-modern leanings - interstellar space travel is too far, I think, but the shape of my island and how it continues to exist during high/low tides is something I'm kind of handwavy-explaining as "terraforming" and "water pumps?" and that sort of not-quite-current technological thing that isn't so far out of the bounds of normal that it throws other things off.

I'd be happy with general agreement on "Modern Tech plus a little bit for flavor", where by flavor I mean things that increase depth and creativity without giving a significant advantage - so being able to turn invisible is a no, but having the national animal be butterflies that were bred to turn invisible in the sunlight, maybe ok. And then specific questions could be referred to the RP moderators to decide, like specific questions over non-human species.
 
Sasten:
Nierr:
Any FT rps shouldn't take place in normal TNP canon, imho. So people if they want can rp FT, but not as part of general TNP RP.
So they can RP FT, but they can't RP FT...? Colour me rather confused.

I do understand where this whole "no FT" comes from; such differences in technology level must usually either be nerfed beyond the threshold of impossibility to be balanced fairly, or will inevitably appear to be godmodding to anyone in the RP who isn't FT. That being said, categorically excluding certain tech levels from the general TNP RP (if I understand your opinion correctly) is not a good idea, as it could discourage quite a few people from RP'ing here. And then we get into the "what exactly is FT" debate...

I think we should just use the "rule of enjoyment" (or whatever other title it carries): If you dislike an RP, for whatever reason, do not join that RP and then complain about it or rail about how such content should be disallowed because you "don't like it". Ludicrously advanced FT nations will have vastly fewer RP partners, of that I am aware. However, I just do not think that categorically excluding them from the rest of our regional RP-life based solely on their primary canon and RP material being FT is a good idea, or even morally/ethically justifiable as it is borderline discrimination.
Your second paragraph (particularly on rule of enjoyment) is exactly what I was trying to hit upon, obviously I failed to do so correctly.

Nierr:
Past tech is past tech, no matter what period of time you're taking from. There's no point in differentiating when so few people even RP past tech - and besides that, people will normally say what kind of level things are at in any particular RP.
Fair enough, though some people may think otherwise. I was mainly saying that a hard 10-25 year definition of MT vs PT is quite inflexible and cannot always accurately represent what MT and PT actually are. Note the verbosity of my reply.

I do however wish to convey my opinion that the boundaries between tech levels are not black and white, especially considering the rapidity of technological advancement, coupled with declining budgets in the present day.

I'm just using established definitions that have been around in NS RP since like... 2006 and before. *shrug*
 
I would like to see more room for countries to develop their own technology, e.g. I would like to work on creating small scale fusion tokamaks. I was told this is unrealistic. I have some knowledge in this topic, and I think I could write a compelling report on how these tokamaks would be made and used. I think we should have the freedom to design these sorts of things, which are not in the IRL pipeline at the moment but may be at a later date.
 
SillyString:
I'd be happy with general agreement on "Modern Tech plus a little bit for flavor", where by flavor I mean things that increase depth and creativity without giving a significant advantage - so being able to turn invisible is a no, but having the national animal be butterflies that were bred to turn invisible in the sunlight, maybe ok. And then specific questions could be referred to the RP moderators to decide, like specific questions over non-human species.
I'd agree with this. As was mentioned before, there are plenty of things that are MT possible, but not done due to treaty obligations or funds. Railguns are a great example of this. I'm willing to support the idea of things that can exist in modern tech, and as always the RP mods can keep an eye on this. And obviously there needs to be some give and take, since they had to have diverted money from somewhere else.
 
Scandigrad:
-snip- ...since they had to have diverted money from somewhere else.
I absolutely adore ranting on this, though I will spare you the threadjack. Mostly. While I understand the allocation of resources in modern times (e.g. a nation who focuses exclusively on building a combat-capable railgun, as well as the materials and technologies to power it, can obtain them quickly, though they will likely fall behind in other things such as aerospace technology and vehicle armour if all their scientists' efforts and all the military's budget is focused exclusively on building said railgun), there also seems to be very little, if any, leeway in how people think of alternative economic systems. Actually, if permitted, I might start a separate thread for that later.

But yes, I do agree with the need for balancing of "MT+", as well as non-arbitrary technology level definitions. I would however caution that, RP-balancing aside, actual technological, combat and economic capability is not a fixed-budget, zero-sum, self-exclusive property. This is not Sid Meier's Civilization, there is no fixed quantity of "Science Points" to spend on certain technologies while others must be abandoned to your detriment. In reality, it's far more complicated than that, taking into account everything from culture, to geography, to economics, to politics, to random madmen/geniuses... To reduce everything to a fixed sum and say something like "you can have your railgun, but if so, you cannot have your tactical bomber fleet because budgets" is fallacious at best. In the world, different countries have different technology and economic levels. Full stop. Given that we are talking about RP here, we do need to make allowances for balancing purposes, that I recognize. However, simply reducing it to "A is better ergo B is worse" is, at least partially, incorrect. Care must of course be taken to avoid godmods, but technology and economics in and of themselves are not zero-sum games.

And remember that not all nations are always created equal; Nation A with a population of 10 million and an army of 25,000-100,00 (in times of war) cannot fight Nation B, with a population of 750 million and a standing army of 2 million, on an even playing field. I understand the desire to believe that Nation A's entire population of 10 million could be conscripted to form an army five times the size of Nation B's army, or that Nation B could be giga-nerfed down to Nation A's level, but this often has the effect of reducing peoples' willingness to be creative and novel in RP's for fear of having it burned out of existence as "unfair" and "unrealistic". The same thing goes with technology: Nation C with He-3 Fusion reactors and general-use railguns, and who can explain the workings and capabilities of their nation required to produce and use these technologies in a sensible and realistic way, should have an innate advantage over Nation D, who is exactly the same as Nation C except they are "stuck" with MT. As a matter of creativity, it should be up to Nations C and D to RP their conflict in an orderly fashion and avoid deliberate godmods. C being superior to D in literally every way, thus giving D no possible chance at winning, is problematic and godmodding. But as long as D can find a legitimate way to stop C and gain a prospect of winning, then it should be allowable, even if C seems to hold an unfair advantage over D. Ultimately, this is an RP, not an actual war; if D does or doesn't want to face C, that is for D to decide. If D thinks they can RP out a creative way to beat C, and if C doesn't godmod, then the RP can be successful. If D however thinks that C is godmodding, then D does not have to play with C; if enough people think likewise, then C will not have anyone to RP with, so they will either leave, or re-examine their canon of their own volition.

Honestly I wish people could just be responsible, mature and creative when dealing with RP's, especially asymmetrical ones, rather than getting angry and asking the mod team to crush down the other player to the complainer's level. I will repeat this again: if you don't like them, ignore them, and if they are ignored enough, they will leave. It's really quite simple.
 
I think unless your RP is set in the past, most of us would have MT.

Except Cronaal of course.
 
Syrixia:
I think unless your RP is set in the past, most of us would have MT.

Except Cronaal of course.
Not anymore.
I purposely destroyed all the FT in order to keep the realism rules. It was bugging me
 
Animatronics aren't future time! They had advanced walking robots (ASIMO for example) 15 years ago as well, so they could be past-time as well.
 
Just to quickly make my stance known publically. I have talked about this with some in private and here is my though. For regions a light PT-MT-PMT mix is always best when it comes to regional RP. Unless you are building a region for FT, regional FT is a really bad idea. But at the same time staying strict MT can turn a lot of people away.

Lower end PMT is reasonable, with regular sublight spaceships, larger and slightly more commercial spaceships and etc. Though one thing about PMT, we nee to make sure people don't just spam automation of everything, I have seen it happen in other regions and it always goes badly with people claiming that everything in their nation is built by robots which allow them to have almost unlimited and as fast production of anything as they want.
 
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