[discussion] Multi-Species in TNP

mcmasterdonia

mcmasterdonia

Just like a queef in the wind, so is life
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TNP Nation
McMasterdonia
For a number of years now, the North Pacific has been tagged as multi-species in-game. Recently though, there has been some contention about the role of multi-species nations in the North Pacific. I have been telegrammed by nations who were concerned that they would not be welcome to role play on this forum because their nation is not simply human only.

So the question here is:

Should the North Pacific be strictly human only, or allow multi species?

How should human only nation's interact with multi-species nations?


I believe that the North Pacific should be an inclusive society and that we should allow RP from multi-species nations.
 
mcmasterdonia:
For a number of years now, the North Pacific has been tagged as multi-species in-game. Recently though, there has been some contention about the role of multi-species nations in the North Pacific. I have been telegrammed by nations who were concerned that they would not be welcome to role play on this forum because their nation is not simply human only.

So the question here is:

Should the North Pacific be strictly human only, or allow multi species?

How should human only nation's interact with multi-species nations?


I believe that the North Pacific should be an inclusive society and that we should allow RP from multi-species nations.
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TNP should allow whatever it is - within reason - the people in the region want to RP with. There are so few people in GCRs who want to rp on a regular basis that putting restrictions on it like 'no x' 'none of y' 'some of z' don't make sense.

If you're rping as elves, dwarves, etc etc that's fine. To me, in character, you're just humans. Weird humans, but still humans.

On the opposite side to that, if you're RPing like... humanised ponies, actual merpeople, human-animal hybred, etc etc. That's something I'd have problems RPing with.
 
Personally I really would not be interested in RPing with non-human species. To me, it just makes the entire situation difficult, and breaks away from Modern Tech, because with non-human species there is a tendency to introduce stuff like magic. And I can't fade magic.
 
The thing with magic though is that in good RP's, magic does NOT get a free pass on the "No Godmodding" rule. An invincible magical force-field or whatever that can stop any attacks for an infinite amount of time is one thing; a magical force-field that can be smashed with a suitably large projectile is quite another. The same goes for non-humans: if they cannot or will not be properly balanced and explained in a (semi-)realistic manner, then they are just not worth RP'ing with. Full stop.

Remember that at the end of the day, YOU are typing on your keyboard, YOU are inventing the RP materials, YOU are reading the RP thread and YOU are making the conscious decision to join it. An RP is only as excellent or as execrable as we make and see it, and if you don't like the RP topic and materials, then you have very little right to complain barring exceptional negligence on behalf of the other player(s). People are free to RP as they want, and it is not within the right of non-participants in their RP's to restrict that right due to spurious "realism" or "meta" or "standardization" explanations, which are mostly just a bunch of bovine excrement to begin with. If you don't like my Giant Space Laser[note: W.I.P.], or someone else's army of MLPonies, do not RP with us and then complain that it is unrealistic. Nobody is forcing you to do anything, and if people are restricted here, they'll just go elsewhere.

Note that this does not preclude you from being exceedingly racist/xenophobic/zoophobic/Hail-Hitler-ing in character. You can do that if you want. I am just of the opinion that categorically outlawing RP's that don't fit within specific guidelines seems excessive and futile. Again, if you dislike an RP, the forum's homepage can be accessed in emergency situations by clicking on the TNP coat-of-arms in the upper-left hand corner of your screen when employing the default forum skin. Better to have one person doing that than to have half of TNP's RP community do it instead.
 
Like Nierr, I don't have any problems RPing with variations of humans. It somewhat breaks with the modern-tech thing (If I would call a short people a dwarf nowadays, I'd probably get a war-axe in the face), but I don't have any problems with it.
It's when people start inventing their own species, aliens and stuff that's as far from human as possible that I back off. As a rule of thumb I think "Does it exist today?" Dwarves may be seen as short people, elves as long and arrogant ones.
I can't find any anthromorphical (don't know if correct spelling) beings alive now. I've been working in the health-care business for three years and have seen some things that have come close, but no actual anthros.
 
I think non-human species are fine within certain limits. Broad guidelines I would use to determine whether a particular case is okay or not are:

1) Is it fluff or substance? I'm a lot more skeptical of non-human RPing when it's basically humans that happen to look funny, or when it seems to be there as decoration, but more open to it when there's been serious thought put into its development. Tied into this is how clever it is - dwarves or elves are, IMO, unoriginal and unnecessary, but something like Acarathia's insect nation is both creative and thoughtful.

2) Does allowing it break regular RP? If a nation wants to RP as a species that can do magic, that means that all RPs now need to account for the existence of "magic", even if they themselves don't want to use it. Or if they want to be a nation of talking dogs, all RP now has to account for the fact that (some?) animals can (sometimes?) talk. That's a bad thing. So I'd be inclined to disallow magical species, but be open to non-magical ones.

3) How skilled is the player? Some people are better RPers than others, and any kind of non-standard play is going to take a higher skill level to pull off. Someone who can't RP their way out of a paper bag is more likely to slide into godmodding, particularly with a non-human species.

I think it would be okay to approve non-human nations on a case-by-case basis, with the RP moderators making the call (or the minister of culture, if the moderators can't decide).
 
Of course a solution to potential RP breaking things is to consider it non-canon - as in, take my Waves of Infamy rp that I totally didn't allow to die, I can either include that as part of Nierr's RP canon, or I can take that as something that is entirely non-canon.

It's like if DC or Marvel do a one-shot of an event or events or characters are in the main canon are totally different.
 
I am fine with non-human species, but they need to be similar. If roleplaying with a weird half-pony/half-whale hybrid with 16 eyes and 1 tentacle for a leg, make sure it is in the title or at least in the OP. I feel like since most of TNP RP days have been MT humans, there has been very little tagging of posts, either in the title or in the OP. Simple as [NH] for Non-Human or [MS] for Multi-Species is easy to use and will easily identify the rp at hand.
 
Agreed. In fact, we should make that law; since some people are bound to be ignorant and not do it. In the largest regions in NS, there's always that little group of people who aren't the brightest candle in the Yankee Candle shop. It's just populational science. (Is populational a word?)
 
I don't think the intent of this convention is to make rules, but rather reach a community consensus.

Also, to address what some people have said before, if you don't like what the other person is doing, don't roleplay with them. They'll get the message. And if someone's taking a thread somewhere you as the OP don't want it to go, just remember your friendly RP Mods are a post away :)
 
I really think that we want RP to be as inclusive as possible. Generally speaking, I am open to original ideas within nations. Acarathia as the insect colony is just one example of a really original idea.

Of course - you are free to not role play with them. But do we really lose anything by allowing other nations to RP as multi-species? I think human-only would be the wrong way to go. It has nothing to do with the 'intelligence' of the RPer, but rather to do with the level of creativity and effort that they put into their idea, in my opinion.
 
As has already been said, people should be free to create the RP they want, with human or not. Even myself have done, and i'm going to do things like that. I think also that claim to follow the reality in RP would be a contradiction because we all created our own nation just to escape reality.
 
There's reality and then there's reality.

Obviously we're not RPing as if we're in literally this world - we don't reference RL events, or send statements to RL governments as if we're a nation on earth. We're not looking to mimic reality.

However, that's an entirely different thing from realism - making a story that is coherent, consistent, and believable. Within a modern tech world, it breaks realism if a nation is allowed to announce that they've invented teleportation. Within a world that follows the same general physical rules as our own, it breaks realism if a nation can RP as an immortal species. It becomes impossible to reconcile various roleplays, and it puts one nation in a hyperpowerful category as compared to others (if you can teleport, espionage becomes trivial, for example).

Roleplay is not simply every participant doing what they want to do at each other. It's a collaborative storytelling process - not all ideas fit in all stories, and stories that try are no good. It's not unreasonable for us to define a restricted universe for our events to occur in, including restrictions on technology and species.
 
I think it should be fine as long as the other species don't have superpowers and abilities that makes them dramatically overpowered in the setting. If they are just mere mortal flesh and blood it doesn't really dramatically effect the story.

In my opinion having Baloo the bear in an RP would be fine, since he can still die just as easily as a human and doesn't have any godmodding powers. On the other hand playing as a Kryptonian (Superman) wouldn't be OK in most RPs because it would be way too overpowered even though they would look human.
 
I will be blunt and say this I am very very pro non-human. I create new species for each of my nation and I have always been dumbfounded that people seem to think that MT and non-human are mutually exclusive. If a species was born in the same world and at the same level as humans I don't see how that is any real tech deference.

Everything is about balance you need to find that balance. Look at the species I created for TNP. They are an arboreal species closer to the Pan then Homo genus, so they are better climbers for instance then humans but at the same time they cannot run like humans.

I spend a lot of time on my species. Hours crafting factbooks to explain them, and even spend money to get concept art.

The last thing I want to see is TNP turn into a place that penalizes people like me who put so much work into something just because we have different ideas.
 
I disagree with Lord Lore completely on the issue. As you probably know, I am both a Biology teacher and a writer, and I spend most of my days in either fact or fiction. While there is a possibility of evolution involved with multi-species, I believe that it is not in the realm of reality. I also don't want to end up talking to anthropomorphic animals or fighting super humans. I therefore am highly Pro-Human on this topic.
 
Bootsie I can tell you this right here, right now. With that attitude and unwillingness to compromise or find common ground, the my way or nothing. The only thing you are going to do is drive away talented and creative writers.

Realism should NEVER be a term used to ban something. It is ridiculous to do so. Realism is subjective. I could go out there and find 20 different people with 45 views on what is realistic, you have to have a tangible argument other than what boils down to "I don't like it so it should be banned"
 
I do not mind that there be multi-species in TNP, however, I do not want to RolePlay with creatures that I do not believe fit my RolePlays. I believe that the OP should decide what is best for their own RP, and the roleplayers involved should adhere to the request made by the topic's OP.
 
You just said you "completely disagreed" on my stance. My stance is to let people who put the extra work in, do it. By saying you completely disagree, you want to disallow it. Are you now denying that?
 
In a perfect world, I would like to see TNP as a place with humans at its core. However, it does not appear as though that will ever get through. I didn't change my stance, however, I attempted to compromise.
 
Bootsie:
In a perfect world, I would like to see TNP as a place with humans at its core. However, it does not appear as though that will ever get through. I didn't change my stance, however, I attempted to compromise.
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"Humans at the core" seeing as most nations will always be human I don't see how you think that will not be the case..... creating non-human species is a lot of work that the vast majority of people are just unwilling to do.
 
Bootsie:
I disagree with Lord Lore completely on the issue. As you probably know, I am both a Biology teacher and a writer, and I spend most of my days in either fact or fiction. While there is a possibility of evolution involved with multi-species, I believe that it is not in the realm of reality. I also don't want to end up talking to anthropomorphic animals or fighting super humans. I therefore am highly Pro-Human on this topic.
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If you want reality don't RP. Go outside or watch a documentary. A lot of stuff like fantasy geography that has nothing to do with Earth or made-up countries that could never exist even with the craziest of alternate history timelines aren't realistic either.


The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
 
Empire of Narnia:
Bootsie:
I disagree with Lord Lore completely on the issue. As you probably know, I am both a Biology teacher and a writer, and I spend most of my days in either fact or fiction. While there is a possibility of evolution involved with multi-species, I believe that it is not in the realm of reality. I also don't want to end up talking to anthropomorphic animals or fighting super humans. I therefore am highly Pro-Human on this topic.
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If you want reality don't RP. Go outside or watch a documentary. A lot of stuff like fantasy geography that has nothing to do with Earth or made-up countries that could never exist even with the craziest of alternate history timelines aren't realistic either.


The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
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Yeah and after reading Bootsie's factbook I do not see how she can pull the realism card...... her nation was founded by two people who were fighting over a guinea pig, they deified the guinea pig and named damn near everything after it. and to top of it they have a cultish religion following the guinea pig for the singularly fact its cute. And ontop of it all they kill people who start to get old...... Yes she can claim other species are "unrealistics"
 
Lord Lore:
Empire of Narnia:
Bootsie:
I disagree with Lord Lore completely on the issue. As you probably know, I am both a Biology teacher and a writer, and I spend most of my days in either fact or fiction. While there is a possibility of evolution involved with multi-species, I believe that it is not in the realm of reality. I also don't want to end up talking to anthropomorphic animals or fighting super humans. I therefore am highly Pro-Human on this topic.
Click to expand...
If you want reality don't RP. Go outside or watch a documentary. A lot of stuff like fantasy geography that has nothing to do with Earth or made-up countries that could never exist even with the craziest of alternate history timelines aren't realistic either.


The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
Click to expand...
Yeah and after reading Bootsie's factbook I do not see how she can pull the realism card...... her nation was founded by two people who were fighting over a guinea pig, they deified the guinea pig and named damn near everything after it. and to top of it they have a cultish religion following the guinea pig for the singularly fact its cute. And ontop of it all they kill people who start to get old...... Yes she can claim other species are "unrealistics"
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Could you please not make personal attacks? This is a thread about what people think about multi-species and how human-only nations could interact with multi-species ones.
This is a sensitive topic for many and I don't think it would help relations between players if people attack each other in this way. I think it is unfair for you to be the judge of what Bootsie should think is realistic or not. We all have our opinion. Deal with it. If you take offence to some of the statements in here, it's too bad.
Don't get me wrong. I really admire people who have the creativity and take the time to think up a society of non-humans. I really do. I have *really* bad imagination myself, so I think it's awesome that someone manages to think outside the box.
My opinion was formed before I realised just how important this aspect of the game is to some people. I'd love to learn more about how a nation of non-humans would be.
Lastly: I'm not taking sides here. I just want an informative discussion free from personal abuse and off-topic bantering.
/threadjacking
 
I am for other species being able to participate in any RP they'd like, at the discretion of the OP. My only concern is how to reconcile the various non-human species with humans & MT RP-ing. I think it depends largely on what type of non-human is attempting to RP; if it's Superman, I'd say no, but if it's just people who have webbed hands and feet, then I'd say yes. I think it is completely a case-by-case thing. Some non-humans' existence can't really be reconciled with most other nations' RPing, but banning all non-humans is way too excessive, I think. I think it should be the OP's decision whether to allow or disallow non-humans. In most cases, if the person who wants to RP as non-humans provides a good reconciliation, I think that the OP can let them in.
 
midtkandal:
*Snip*
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I am sorry I am just demonstrating how easily the "reality" card can be flipped. Realism is completely subjective. You can't form a stance 100% for or against something based on nothing but realism because once you demand from others it you are placing yourself at its mercy.
 
Empire of Narnia:
The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
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I would hardly define that as being how realism works in roleplay. Realism in RP is far more about being able to suspend disbelief rather than writing a textbook.
 
Scandigrad:
Empire of Narnia:
The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
Click to expand...
I would hardly define that as being how realism works in roleplay. Realism in RP is far more about being able to suspend disbelief rather than writing a textbook.
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A geologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding the map of The North Pacific. A historian or anthropologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding a lot of our Factbooks. On the other hand somebody who believes in ghosts would be able to suspend disbelief towards all sorts of supernatural goings on in a nation.


I also don't think calling people out on hypocrisy counts as personal attacks. It's just calling them out on BS opinions.
 
Empire of Narnia:
Scandigrad:
Empire of Narnia:
The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
Click to expand...
I would hardly define that as being how realism works in roleplay. Realism in RP is far more about being able to suspend disbelief rather than writing a textbook.
Click to expand...
A geologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding the map of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...
I disagree, but feel free to point out where geologically at least, the map has failings.
 
Nierr:
Empire of Narnia:
Scandigrad:
Empire of Narnia:
The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
Click to expand...
I would hardly define that as being how realism works in roleplay. Realism in RP is far more about being able to suspend disbelief rather than writing a textbook.
Click to expand...
A geologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding the map of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...
I disagree, but feel free to point out where geologically at least, the map has failings.
Click to expand...
The things that stick from a purely layman's perspective is climate, since nations that RP as tropical places could be sitting right next to arctic-themed nations in a very close area. Another thing is having large, established nations spring up out of thin air. A nation could quickly find a new threatening nation magically poof into existence next to them and alter the whole dynamics of the RP. I also remember entire new landmasses could be made if somebody wanted.

Also I don't think anything on Earth looks like the map. Those specific geological features don't exist on Earth so it must be taking place on some alien planet or fantasy universe. I'm sure an actual geologist could find many more issues with it, after all real landmasses look the way they do because of a well understood science. They weren't just drawn up one day to look cool. A peninsula or river could be placed somewhere they could never naturally form in reality for example.
 
Empire of Narnia:
A geologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding the map of The North Pacific. A historian or anthropologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding a lot of our Factbooks. On the other hand somebody who believes in ghosts would be able to suspend disbelief towards all sorts of supernatural goings on in a nation.
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Perhaps you should actually read what suspension of disbelief is first.

Wiki article

The one thing I will note, however, is that since RP includes multiple authors, it is on the author rather than the reader to attempt to create this suspension of disbelief. In other forms, the producer is speaking one way, but with the interactive nature of RP, both the reader and the writer have an obligation to approach some level of the suspension of disbelief.

Narnia:
The things that stick from a purely layman's perspective is climate, since nations that RP as tropical places could be sitting right next to arctic-themed nations in a very close area. Another thing is having large, established nations spring up out of thin air. A nation could quickly find a new threatening nation magically poof into existence next to them and alter the whole dynamics of the RP. I also remember entire new landmasses could be made if somebody wanted.

Also I don't think anything on Earth looks like the map. Those specific geological features don't exist on Earth so it must be taking place on some alien planet or fantasy universe. I'm sure an actual geologist could find many more issues with it, after all real landmasses look the way they do because of a well understood science. They weren't just drawn up one day to look cool. A peninsula or river could be placed somewhere they could never naturally form in reality for example.
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Again, this is where suspension of disbelief comes in. Read up.

Now, assuming your opinion stands, so what? What do you suggest?
 
Just in case I ever do role play with a nation with a non-human species, I added this to the constitution I'm working on:

"C Personhood
1 This Constitution defines a “natural person” as an individual entity capable of intentionality, agency, and rationality. This definition is not limited by this document to human beings alone, and may be extended to any entity, organism, mechanism, or electronic device, whether constructed, contacted, discovered, uplifted, or evolved, provided the entity demonstrates a capacity for intentionality, agency, and rationality."

Besides, we are transhumanists anyway, so it just makes sense.
 
Empire of Narnia:
Nierr:
Empire of Narnia:
Scandigrad:
Empire of Narnia:
The closest thing to a realistic NationStates RP would be one where we can only RP as real countries with real leaders and real geography.
Click to expand...
I would hardly define that as being how realism works in roleplay. Realism in RP is far more about being able to suspend disbelief rather than writing a textbook.
Click to expand...
A geologist would find it very hard to suspend disbelief regarding the map of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...
I disagree, but feel free to point out where geologically at least, the map has failings.
Click to expand...
The things that stick from a purely layman's perspective is climate, since nations that RP as tropical places could be sitting right next to arctic-themed nations in a very close area. Another thing is having large, established nations spring up out of thin air. A nation could quickly find a new threatening nation magically poof into existence next to them and alter the whole dynamics of the RP. I also remember entire new landmasses could be made if somebody wanted.

Also I don't think anything on Earth looks like the map. Those specific geological features don't exist on Earth so it must be taking place on some alien planet or fantasy universe. I'm sure an actual geologist could find many more issues with it, after all real landmasses look the way they do because of a well understood science. They weren't just drawn up one day to look cool. A peninsula or river could be placed somewhere they could never naturally form in reality for example.
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Aside from your last sentence none of those are geological problems.
 
Alta Italia:
I am for other species being able to participate in any RP they'd like, at the discretion of the OP. My only concern is how to reconcile the various non-human species with humans & MT RP-ing. I think it depends largely on what type of non-human is attempting to RP; if it's Superman, I'd say no, but if it's just people who have webbed hands and feet, then I'd say yes. I think it is completely a case-by-case thing. Some non-humans' existence can't really be reconciled with most other nations' RPing, but banning all non-humans is way too excessive, I think. I think it should be the OP's decision whether to allow or disallow non-humans. In most cases, if the person who wants to RP as non-humans provides a good reconciliation, I think that the OP can let them in.
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My problem with leaving it entirely to the discretion of the OP is that that risks the establishment of incompatible canon. If someone wants to RP a nation of telepathic shapeshifters, and one of their neighbors is okay with that and another isn't, and the one who is okay with has an RP with this nation where they sign a mutual defense treaty, and then ends up at war with the one who isn't... it's not clear to what extent that nation is permitted or encouraged to participate. Whether they do or don't, someone ends up unhappy.

This is why I think RP moderators might be the best solution to requests for non-humans.They could look at a request, think it over, suggest changes, and ultimately approve or deny it - and once approved, that nation would be able to participate in national RPs without needing permission every single time.
 
SillyString:
Alta Italia:
I am for other species being able to participate in any RP they'd like, at the discretion of the OP. My only concern is how to reconcile the various non-human species with humans & MT RP-ing. I think it depends largely on what type of non-human is attempting to RP; if it's Superman, I'd say no, but if it's just people who have webbed hands and feet, then I'd say yes. I think it is completely a case-by-case thing. Some non-humans' existence can't really be reconciled with most other nations' RPing, but banning all non-humans is way too excessive, I think. I think it should be the OP's decision whether to allow or disallow non-humans. In most cases, if the person who wants to RP as non-humans provides a good reconciliation, I think that the OP can let them in.
Click to expand...
My problem with leaving it entirely to the discretion of the OP is that that risks the establishment of incompatible canon. If someone wants to RP a nation of telepathic shapeshifters, and one of their neighbors is okay with that and another isn't, and the one who is okay with has an RP with this nation where they sign a mutual defense treaty, and then ends up at war with the one who isn't... it's not clear to what extent that nation is permitted or encouraged to participate. Whether they do or don't, someone ends up unhappy.

This is why I think RP moderators might be the best solution to requests for non-humans.They could look at a request, think it over, suggest changes, and ultimately approve or deny it - and once approved, that nation would be able to participate in national RPs without needing permission every single time.
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Maybe it should be left to the OP unless a nation raises an objection with their decision; I think only then a mod's intervention would be necessary.
 
Well, the mods are there for a reason. I think we should be able to reasonably allow them to intervene if things go too far to the extreme.
 
There's a difference between intervention and guiding. No, mods shouldn't intervene in peoples' business unless they are asked to, but they can also serve a helpful function as maintaners of a consistent, non-arbitrary, non-constantly-changing standard for various questions like tech level, non-human species, and the like. If we weren't trying to create a single overarching world for us all to play in, it wouldn't be as necessary, but it becomes very difficult if the rules change from RP to RP.
 
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