An apology from JhonsJoe

[JhawnathinJ]

Hello TNP,

I understand that I am at the moment very unpopular with senior members. I've been accused of lying and slander.

This is mainly because of my belief of an "oligarchy" when I was running for AG, and also multiple instances where I said things that were not true. This ultimately led to the downfall of my campaign.

Well tonight, I formally retract those statements.

I don't believe in an oligarchy, although I did at the time. One thing I still believe in is the fact that known TNPers often win elections as oppose to newer TNPers. Which I guess is what I was trying to say during that election, but i took it to far. I accused people of voter fraud, and blamed the executive branch for being corrupt. I understand why so many of you are angry at me.

Now, TNP, I apologize for my statements.I do not expect you to forgive me instantly, and I do not blame you, I wouldn't. But I just want you to know that I no longer believe the accusations I said in the 2014 Judicial Election.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

--JhonsJoe

 

[mcmasterdonia]

What or who made you believe that the oligarchy was doing the things you initially accused them of?

I ask because I believe that certain members continue to push the oligarchy talk and then retrospectively claim that they were "joking" the entire time. I believe that this "joking" leads to confusion for newer members such as yourself, which can seriously hurt your electoral prospects.

 

[Romanoffia]

What or who made you believe that the oligarchy was doing the things you initially accused them of?

I ask because I believe that certain members continue to push the oligarchy talk and then retrospectively claim that they were "joking" the entire time. I believe that this "joking" leads to confusion for newer members such as yourself, which can seriously hurt your electoral prospects.

All this harassment of people who mention the word "Oligarchy" points to one thing, and I won't say it.

No, wait, I will say it. A number of us have always made "Oligarchy" jokes. And then anyone who makes such jokes inevitably gets piled on. They either submit to the piling on, or they get more piling on. And, incidentally, it is always the same people doing the piling on.

Apparently, the subject touches a nerve with some people, possibly because it may hit not too far from the truth? But apparently if one makes mention of the term, instead of it being joked about, certain people harp on it and attack, harass or otherwise demean anyone who uses the term. Sounds a lot like Orwell's 1984 when you get right down to it.

Sometimes I wonder if the joke doesn't strike too close to the truth sometimes, especially considering the fact that it garners such a violent and uncouth response from some people. Things are getting too cliquish around here. The elitist mentality is starting to show:

Do you not feel that since you have been on the forum since 2012 you ought to step aside and make way for someone who has been here a couple of weeks, knows jack shit about our region and our laws and who has only the sketchiest idea what a delegate does, but who can use the word "oligarchy" four times in one post and who believes any sort of bollocks satire that comes out of Romanoffia's mouth?

Won't you think about the children?

What a wonderful display of an elitist mentality which is the basis for the "Oligarchy" joke. “In jest, there is truth.” ? William Shakespeare, King Lear.

Just for the record, methinks that people doth protest too much at the mention of that word. It should give people pause for thought as to why people are so touchy concerning the subject even when anyone jokes about it.

JhonsJoe has nothing for which to apologise.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Apparently, the subject touches a nerve with some people, possibly because it may hit not too far from the truth?

Sometimes I wonder if the joke doesn't strike too close to the truth sometimes, especially considering the fact that it garners such a violent and uncouth response from some people.

“In jest, there is truth.” ? William Shakespeare, King Lear.

So is it a joke or do you actually believe it? Can you see why some of us, including me, are having trouble keeping it straight?

 

[Democratic Donkeys]

What or who made you believe that the oligarchy was doing the things you initially accused them of?

I ask because I believe that certain members continue to push the oligarchy talk and then retrospectively claim that they were "joking" the entire time. I believe that this "joking" leads to confusion for newer members such as yourself, which can seriously hurt your electoral prospects.

All this harassment of people who mention the word "Oligarchy" points to one thing, and I won't say it.

No, wait, I will say it. A number of us have always made "Oligarchy" jokes. And then anyone who makes such jokes inevitably gets piled on. They either submit to the piling on, or they get more piling on. And, incidentally, it is always the same people doing the piling on.

Apparently, the subject touches a nerve with some people, possibly because it may hit not too far from the truth? But apparently if one makes mention of the term, instead of it being joked about, certain people harp on it and attack, harass or otherwise demean anyone who uses the term. Sounds a lot like Orwell's 1984 when you get right down to it.

Sometimes I wonder if the joke doesn't strike too close to the truth sometimes, especially considering the fact that it garners such a violent and uncouth response from some people. Things are getting too cliquish around here. The elitist mentality is starting to show:

Do you not feel that since you have been on the forum since 2012 you ought to step aside and make way for someone who has been here a couple of weeks, knows jack shit about our region and our laws and who has only the sketchiest idea what a delegate does, but who can use the word "oligarchy" four times in one post and who believes any sort of bollocks satire that comes out of Romanoffia's mouth?

Won't you think about the children?

What a wonderful display of an elitist mentality which is the basis for the "Oligarchy" joke. “In jest, there is truth.” ? William Shakespeare, King Lear.

Just for the record, methinks that people doth protest too much at the mention of that word. It should give people pause for thought as to why people are so touchy concerning the subject even when anyone jokes about it.

JhonsJoe has nothing for which to apologise.

"The horsemaster doth protest too much, methinks"

 

[Romanoffia]

Apparently, the subject touches a nerve with some people, possibly because it may hit not too far from the truth?

Sometimes I wonder if the joke doesn't strike too close to the truth sometimes, especially considering the fact that it garners such a violent and uncouth response from some people.

“In jest, there is truth.” ? William Shakespeare, King Lear.

So is it a joke or do you actually believe it? Can you see why some of us, including me, are having trouble keeping it straight?

Grow up, will you?

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Excuse me? You have never said unequivocally that it is a joke and you do not believe it when you say it. It is obvious to everyone else that even if you don't believe it, newcomers who aren't familiar with the region are drawn into it and do not understand that it's a joke.

When you hedge on your claim that it's a joke by implying that there is truth to it in your posts, it's confusing. There's nothing immature about calling you out on that.

 

[Romanoffia]

What or who made you believe that the oligarchy was doing the things you initially accused them of?

I ask because I believe that certain members continue to push the oligarchy talk and then retrospectively claim that they were "joking" the entire time. I believe that this "joking" leads to confusion for newer members such as yourself, which can seriously hurt your electoral prospects.

All this harassment of people who mention the word "Oligarchy" points to one thing, and I won't say it.

No, wait, I will say it. A number of us have always made "Oligarchy" jokes. And then anyone who makes such jokes inevitably gets piled on. They either submit to the piling on, or they get more piling on. And, incidentally, it is always the same people doing the piling on.

Apparently, the subject touches a nerve with some people, possibly because it may hit not too far from the truth? But apparently if one makes mention of the term, instead of it being joked about, certain people harp on it and attack, harass or otherwise demean anyone who uses the term. Sounds a lot like Orwell's 1984 when you get right down to it.

Sometimes I wonder if the joke doesn't strike too close to the truth sometimes, especially considering the fact that it garners such a violent and uncouth response from some people. Things are getting too cliquish around here. The elitist mentality is starting to show:

Do you not feel that since you have been on the forum since 2012 you ought to step aside and make way for someone who has been here a couple of weeks, knows jack shit about our region and our laws and who has only the sketchiest idea what a delegate does, but who can use the word "oligarchy" four times in one post and who believes any sort of bollocks satire that comes out of Romanoffia's mouth?

Won't you think about the children?

What a wonderful display of an elitist mentality which is the basis for the "Oligarchy" joke. “In jest, there is truth.” ? William Shakespeare, King Lear.

Just for the record, methinks that people doth protest too much at the mention of that word. It should give people pause for thought as to why people are so touchy concerning the subject even when anyone jokes about it.

JhonsJoe has nothing for which to apologise.

"The horsemaster doth protest too much, methinks"

Well, since you put it that way, given the snotty responses from you and COE, I would say that the Oligarchy joke is becoming less of a joke and more of a reality.

You are only proving, whether true or not, the very existence of an Oligarchy that will simply crush (or attempt to do so) anyone who gets in the way buy your very posts.

In simplest terms, if the Oligarchy doesn't exist, why do some people, like you, take the joke so seriously?

So, please feel to pile-on and prove my point (which is now moving out of the 'joke' domain into the reality domain).


We shall see.

 

[JhawnathinJ]

I mean, this thing like diminished my campaign and ruined my reputation.

I believe that the oligarchy is real it a metaphorical way, but far from reality.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Well, since you put it that way, given the snotty responses from you and COE, I would say that the Oligarchy joke is becoming less of a joke and more of a reality.

You are only proving, whether true or not, the very existence of an Oligarchy that will simply crush (or attempt to do so) anyone who gets in the way buy your very posts.

In simplest terms, if the Oligarchy doesn't exist, why do some people, like you, take the joke so seriously?

So, please feel to pile-on and prove my point (which is now moving out of the 'joke' domain into the reality domain).


We shall see.

So, to be clear, when you made this post, were you joking or not?

 

[Romanoffia]

Well, since you put it that way, given the snotty responses from you and COE, I would say that the Oligarchy joke is becoming less of a joke and more of a reality.

You are only proving, whether true or not, the very existence of an Oligarchy that will simply crush (or attempt to do so) anyone who gets in the way buy your very posts.

In simplest terms, if the Oligarchy doesn't exist, why do some people, like you, take the joke so seriously?

So, please feel to pile-on and prove my point (which is now moving out of the 'joke' domain into the reality domain).


We shall see.

So, to be clear, when you made this post, were you joking or not?

Please continue, you are only proving that this joke is not a joke at all. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Keep proving my point by your comments and I may indeed conclude that the Oligarchy is indeed real. Elitism is on its way out in TNP whether or not you know it.

I mean, this thing like diminished my campaign and ruined my reputation.

I believe that the oligarchy is real it a metaphorical way, but far from reality.

I don't know. With all the nasty rhetoric about the Oligarchy from COE, Silly String and Flemingovia, I find that it might not be a joke at all and that my joke has struck a nerve for some odd reason.

There is a definite elitist attitude in this region - it is the belief that no one but 'experienced' people should hold office. But if you cannot hold office because you are inexperienced, how do you get the experience to hold office? Think about it for a while.

Think about this for a minute - mention the term "Oligarchy" and you will generally find yourself piled on by the same group of people who deny the existence of an "Oligarchy". Whether or not it actually exists, the clique does, and that constitutes and elitist arrangement.

Let me give you a little nebulous back-history -

Many years ago we had a Constitutional arrangement in TNP in which Forum Administrators were prohibited from holding certain elected positions. There was a good reason for this. There's an old adage that whoever controls the past, controls the future and whoever controls the present controls the past. Ergo, if the Delegate is a Forum Admin, then the Delegate controls everything. And, whoever controls the forum controls the region because the forum is the main channel of maintaining power and control in the region. Unfortunately, this very wise arrangement was scrapped.

Of course this conjectural yet substantiated assertion will meet extreme and violent opposition from the very people who maintain a constant power-base by virtue of the present arrangement.

Call attention to this and you will get harassed and piled on by the very people who deny the existence of an "Oligarchy".

This is only the result of an elitist attitude by people who don't even realise that they are indeed an "Oligarchy" in the true essence of Orwell's 1984. If you use certain words, you will be targeted for abuse. It is the destruction of words that Orwell warned us about. If you cannot use certain words, you can no longer argue certain valid points. It is the de facto enforcement of Political Correctness (following the party line) and that develops in almost any system in which elitism has become firmly entrenched.

The problem occurs when the people with elitist mentalities think that they know what is best for everyone, and that translates into the sound thumping of anyone who has a differing opinion. It's all about power in terms of which Nietzsche would be proud. Instead of trying to cultivate leadership so that power and leadership can be passed on to a new crop of people, those with the elitist mentality only seek to perpetuate their own control without regard for the future. They fail to take into account what will happen after they themselves are gone. They labour under the misapprehension that they will be around forever.

The elitist types have created a convoluted system which they think everyone else, including you, are too stupid to understand and perpetuate. They deny each succeeding generation of people their self determination to decide what is best for them. They think they always know best and this God-Attitude is self defeating. It is self defeating because it presumes that the elitist will be around forever. It's like the Cult of Personality that flops when the originating personality is gone.

What makes it worse is the fact that some are so idiotic to think that there is no correlation between the course of events in TNP and real life. We are all products of real life and to assume that we do not carry those experiences and sensibilities into TNP (the game/NationStates) is utter folly.

One has to just read Oswald Spengler's "The Decline of The West" to understand what is going on now in TNP. I've been around long enough to see Spengler's cycle of rise-decline-fall playing out several times in TNP. Only those who are close minded or simply blind to this fact will violently thrash me or anyone else who points this out. Ironically, no matter what they try to accomplish to prevent this cycle from repeating itself will always fail. It is a rule of the Universe and it is playing out right here and now.

Right now, we are at the verge of "The state and Caesarism", and it is all because of the elitist mentality which we in parody call the "Oligarchy".

And the beauty of it all is that the whole process cannot be thwarted no matter how much those with the elitist mind-set try to prevent it. Sure, they will try to run out or outright ban those who point this out, but anything they do only pushes us further down the death-spiral until the whole thing starts over again.

There is a way out of this cycle, but only if people open their minds and listen. Unfortunately, they won't listen and will only deride anyone who points out the obvious. So, I sit back and watch it happen again and again and laugh.

 

[Tomb]

Roman, do you not get tired of this?

~ Tomb

 

[Scandigrad]

Wait so is it a joke, or nah?

 

[Democratic Donkeys]

So, to be clear, when you made this post, were you joking or not?

At this point I am unsure he knows the answer to that question.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

[admin hat on]At least one report has been filed about this thread. I am going to caution all of you to ramp down the rhetoric and the accusations and snide comments before warnings get handed out left and right.

If I'm the admin ending up having to deal with this, I won't been looking to figure out who is right or wrong, the warning button will be used liberally.

[admin hat off]

 

[Democratic Donkeys]

I think your interpretation of the exactly one report that was filed is erroneous and does not warrant a threat of warning indiscriminately.

 

[Grosseschnauzer]

I issued a caution, not a warning. But the tone of the thread needs to be tempered down a few degrees. I read the entire thread before I posted.

 

[PaulWallLibertarian42]

When Moderators/Admins edit users by-lines it does say something. Rather in jest or not. It does say something.

I know I am part of the unholy trio willingly or not (Roman, Falap, Myself) -- not nessicarily by choice, we had reservations about Role Play religon being recongized as offical...I felt Roman was being treated unfairly and attempted to stand up for him and got labeled a 'romanoffia fan boy' --- so no matter what I say it will be tainted by the dog pile. We just happen to have conservative leanings IRL and role play and sometimes find ourselves agreeing more than not...but I know because I dont agree with the group think I'll be dismissed.

But thats what it is group think. The idea of an 'oligarchy' is meant metaphorically. While there may not be a real effort of a small group to run everything and occassionally younger players are allowed to lead. Apparently moreso then in other regions.... it does seem there is certian attitudes and cliques among individual players....and I noticed that when I first started playing nationstates and was born in TNP..when DD was allowed to get by with being extremely snarky to new players (me) and I was told that is just how he is. There is a group think mentality by groups of players and if you dont agree with them in role play or RL political ideas...it seems you get dogpiled on. And I have came to this conclusion on my own without any influence from the 'unholy trio' it is just roman isnt afraid to stir the pot and say what others are thinking.

While it is true I have been able to be appointed as deputy speaker in my first few months here because I had keen intrests in debating in the RA. DD saw fit to peg me to be his deputy in home affairs when it first started. I was even 'acting' minister when DD was away for the final month and a half or so on his preplanned vacation/end of his job assignment. I was even being groomed to replace him...he made me 'acting' minister in the hopes I would fully take over, at least is what I was told. I had intrests in the AGs office as well. (Being Deputy speaker and deputy home affairs I was confident I could do both. After all other people are able to serve in multiple capacities) - There was an opening for AG. I ran and lost. Treize asked me to be his deputy. (As r3ns first term was closing and at that time he wasnt going to run again..I figured would be a good way to finish out the term as the HA minister and have experience working in the AGs office. So I could finish out r3ns term and have begun as a deputy..so I could leave HA at end of r3ns term and get AG experience) ...

well because I took the assistant AG post..r3n decided to go a different route and not pick me to be the HA minister...I was told specifically it was because I accepted Treizes assistant AG post..that I wasnt dedicated enough to one post...I pointed out that other people have multiple roles and do it fine...and was told that 'well they have experience in the game you do not.' (Brings us back to Romans point earlier: How does one get experience in the first place to hold the positions?) It all worked out. Or so it seems. Treize flaked out on us. I decided to step up and run. Mall was my opponet. I won by one vote and finished out Treizes term and got trolled with Flemingovias complaints. - so new people DO GET OPPORTUNITES!? - OF COURSE THEY DO. the idea of an 'oligarchy' is not about a small group of players constantly switching off positions every election...the Oligarchy is more about clique like behavior and group think mentality. If you don't go along to get along then it seems you get picked on. If you follow in with the alpha dogs or the people in the clique you become popular and the sky is the limit on what you can accomplish. But if you go against the grain and disagree with the majority then you are free to be dog piled on and ostracized.

TNP is not the sole place this happens. This happens in Real life...no matter where a group of people congregate at.

If you want to succeed in TNP you best get on IRC. Joke and cut up and find common ground with the chatters there and agree with them on most RL issues. And not challenge them. Instead you best go along to get along

And this is the crux of the idea of the metaphorical 'oligarchy'.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

When Moderators/Admins edit users by-lines it does say something. Rather in jest or not. It does say something.

Yeah... It says that they have a sense of humour. shocking, I know?!

R3n is entitled to pick who he likes as a member of his cabinet. It has always been that way, he obviously felt that Tomb was the right fit for the job. In my opinion, he made an excellent decision. Tomb has done so much for the Home Affairs department and has been one of the best Ministers in this government. I would also point out that Tomb does not spend much time on IRC, but he has done an excellent job and has been recognised for that excellent work ethic.

You admitted that you didn't have as much time for NS as you had originally thought due to OOC issues. That is fine, but I think it is very unreasonable for you to be this upset with r3n for picking another person. It happens, but it is disappointing that you have since then chosen to completely withdraw from the executive staff because you weren't appointed.

TNP is not the sole place this happens. This happens in Real life...no matter where a group of people congregate at.

If you want to succeed in TNP you best get on IRC. Joke and cut up and find common ground with the chatters there and agree with them on most RL issues. And not challenge them. Instead you best go along to get along

Seriously. You need to get out there and experience what other major game created regions are like. There is no game created region that is as open, as transparent, or as welcoming to new members as the North Pacific is. I repeat again how I was elected Vice Delegate in less than 6 months and Delegate within the year. This would be very difficult in another GCR.

I also believe that this "oligarchy" talk is seriously counter productive. It ignores the fact that most of the cabinet, including our Delegate, have only been active and around in the North Pacific for less than two years. Tomb and Malvad have been around for even less than that.

Kialga has been elected Justice after only a manner of months. Abacathea, who I consider to be one of the greatest people I welcomed to the North Pacific, was elected Vice Delegate and made a Minister within a manner of months. Abacathea does not spend a great deal of time on IRC either. Lets not forget Lord Nwahs or Crushing our Enemies either. Even SillyString has only been actively involved in the North Pacific for a very short time.

The IRCabal and Oligarchy talk is a cop out. It is a way for people to deflect blame due to their electoral issues, rather than to take responsibility for them or to try and improve. It is seriously disappointing to see you continue to be pushing this line. When you accuse the North Pacific region and it's government of corruption, that naturally alienates people. Especially when there is no basis whatsoever for those accusations.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

 

[PaulWallLibertarian42]

The not much time thing was RECENT. not at the time the HA decision was made. And it wasnt really that I didnt have time. When I was AG I didnt respond to your complaint for 48 hours..not because I didnt read it...but I was trying to get the car to the shop and I responded as soon as I had that sorted. And then in September I was having some RL issues with my online presence being called into question. Also at that time I felt the forum slow so didnt see a need to check in every single day. I would look every few days. -- the HA thing and being denied after taking Triezes appointment happened in around mid-late July. Months ago. And has nothing to do with me not being in as much in september - october leading up to the AG election. Also, I agree Tomb has done a good job, and in no way meant to knock his job performance or acomplishments.

Edit:

I also believe that this "oligarchy" talk is seriously counter productive. It ignores the fact that most of the cabinet, including our Delegate, have only been active and around in the North Pacific for less than two years. Tomb and Malvad have been around for even less than that.

Kialga has been elected Justice after only a manner of months. Abacathea, who I consider to be one of the greatest people I welcomed to the North Pacific, was elected Vice Delegate and made a Minister within a manner of months. Abacathea does not spend a great deal of time on IRC either. Lets not forget Lord Nwahs or Crushing our Enemies either. Even SillyString has only been actively involved in the North Pacific for a very short time.

Also it sounds like you are just trying to create talking points. No one denies new players arent given opportunities. The idea of an 'oligarchy' is not about elections at all. It is metaphorical. To discuss some of the group think mentality that goes on around here. And the group clique behavior. In any social settings people are going to group together and gang up on those they see as less than. Its not about new people being elected or not elected. It is about certain players getting together concerted or on thier own..and expressing elitist attitudes towards other players who for whatever reason it seems they look down on. Either because the group doesnt like their ideas (real life or role play), the way they post, their avatar. Or just because.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

The not much time thing was RECENT. not at the time the HA decision was made. And it wasnt really that I didnt have time. When I was AG I didnt respond to your complaint for 48 hours..not because I didnt read it...but I was trying to get the car to the shop and I responded as soon as I had that sorted. And then in September I was having some RL issues with my online presence being called into question. Also at that time I felt the forum slow so didnt see a need to check in every single day. I would look every few days. -- the HA thing and being denied after taking Triezes appointment happened in around mid-late July. Months ago. And has nothing to do with me not being in as much in september - october leading up to the AG election. Also, I agree Tomb has done a good job, and in no way meant to knock his job performance or acomplishments.

You're making out that there is some big conspiracy against you. That the reason you were not appointed is because you are not in the oligarchy and because you do not visit IRC.

I would just point out that this is complete and utter nonsense. As I said in the post above, Tomb, Malvad, Nwahs etc, none of these people have been in the region for a huge amount of time. Neither of those individuals spend a huge amount of time on IRC. I cannot recall the last time I saw Malvad on IRC. These people were elected or appointed because they do a fantastic job, and because of their hard work ethic and dedication to the region.

When you suggest that it is the oligarchy or the IRCabal that approves them - you are undermining their work and suggesting that it is not their work that gets them appointed or elected. These new members who are elected or are appointed to positions, should be commended for their efforts.

They should not have their appointments underminded by this talk of the oligarchy and the IRCabal giving them some sort of blessing for the position based on cronyism and corruption. That is highly insulting to the character of those individuals who were appointed, to the Delegate who appoints them and to the electorate who votes for them.

 

[PaulWallLibertarian42]

No im not trying to make it out to be a conspiracy against me. I was just using the anecdote as an example.

It is more of the clique of like minded players the go alongs to get alongs vs. Those that for whatever reason dont go along to get along. You get piled on and margainilized if you dont.

 

[r3naissanc3r]

Imagine I run for President of the US in 2016, I lose, then I make a press release accusing the political oligarchy running the US government for my loss.

The oligarchy conspiracy theories thrown around lately are about as credible as my complaints in the scenario I described above.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

But if you go against the grain and disagree with the majority then you are free to be dog piled on and ostracized.

If you disagree with the majority of people, the majority of people will disagree with you. When you disagree with the majority of people all the time, you might feel like you don't belong. You can call that dog-piling and ostracization if you want, I guess.

 

[PaulWallLibertarian42]

But shouldnt one try to understand why someone may percieve to have been slighted?

Maybe its not some conspiracy of an elite social group not wanting to include those they feel are less than. Maybe I am over sensitive. And am apt to have a victim mentality. In school I was often the victim of bullying and harrassment by the popular kids and I typically kept to myself and didnt bother anyone and wasnt as opinionated as I am now. And often times I revert back to that mentality of being felt like im being picked on by the percieved popular kids (this seemingly elite group of players who chat in IRC and are supposed leaders/in positions of power)

Maybe Romanoffia, Falapitorius, JoeJhons, and Myself are just a buch of overreacting crybabies. Who really knows right?

 

[mcmasterdonia]

No im not trying to make it out to be a conspiracy against me. I was just using the anecdote as an example.

It is more of the clique of like minded players the go alongs to get alongs vs. Those that for whatever reason dont go along to get along. You get piled on and margainilized if you dont.

I'm sorry that you feel marginalized, but I don't think that is the case. Unfortunately, part of a democracy means that there will be some who support the majority decision and some who don't. You need to accept the defeats with the victories, it is part of the process. When I was first Delegate I had a major treaty fail before the assembly, that didn't mean that I was unpopular or marginalised, but that the RA didn't agree with the treaty & that I hadn't done a good enough job in convincing them that it was necessary.

I do not think that there is always this clique of people who always get a long with one another. When a vote passes, there is obviously a group who voted to support it's passage. Personally, if I am against a bill, I am against it. Regardless of who authored it.

Edit: Pwl and COE ninja'd me!

I would just add that it has been said that I like everyone and try to see the best in them. I like Romanoffia and always will, no matter how many long threads or rants he posts! He took an interest in me when I first joined and campaigned to get more nations involved in the regional government.

I think that you and Flap have real potential. Flap seems to enjoy the debate side of things, so I think he is in the right region. But I think you need to check your sensitivity and not try to find a scapegoat when things don't go your way.

I was impressed that JhonsJoe decided to apologise for making false accusations about fake voting. I think it will be interesting to see where he goes in the next few months.

 

[PaulWallLibertarian42]

But if you go against the grain and disagree with the majority then you are free to be dog piled on and ostracized.

If you disagree with the majority of people, the majority of people will disagree with you. When you disagree with the majority of people all the time, you might feel like you don't belong. You can call that dog-piling and ostracization if you want, I guess.

you. When you disagree with the majority of people all most the time, you might feel like you don't belong.

Yeah, well pretty much nail on the head there, is how I feel most of the time.

 

[mcmasterdonia]

Disagreeing is part of a democratic society. I do not think that this is a region made of yes-men and yes-women, and I would hate it if it were that way. There are other regions where it is inappropraite to even question or disagree with a Delegate's decision or policy on a certain matter. I am so glad that we are not that kind of region, debate should be embraced. But it needs to be productive and I can't help but feel that this oligarchy/IRCabal argument is simply undermining the great work that new members and the Delegate (in particular) do for our great region.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

When you disagree with the majority of people all most the time, you might feel like you don't belong.

Yeah, well pretty much nail on the head there, is how I feel most of the time.

Fair enough, but the distinction I'm drawing is that there has been no effort to push anyone out. We welcome everyone, and I personally want you to be successful here. You and Roman, and falapatorius, and JhonsJoe, and Syrixia, etc etc etc. Falapatorius is arguing a bill quite well before the RA at the moment - even if the bill fails, I think this might be a turning point for him. You have a chance as deputy AG to make some accomplishments of your own. GM is a good manager, and I think under his guidance you can be quite successful there. You also learned a lot as deputy speaker - I see you contributing meaningfully to discussions about RA procedure.

My point is, you don't have to agree with everyone all the time to do well here. You do have to know when to give up on something that's unpopular, and you do have to willing to learn and improve.

And here's another thing: if you're talking about a majority, that's no longer an oligarchy, metaphorical or otherwise. That's a community.

 

[falapatorius]

I'm amazed how much this has veered off-topic. I don't think JhonsJoe intended this as an image rehabilitation/oligarchy refutation thread.

 

[SillyString]

When you suggest that it is the oligarchy or the IRCabal that approves them - you are undermining their work and suggesting that it is not their work that gets them appointed or elected. These new members who are elected or are appointed to positions, should be commended for their efforts.

THIS. So much this.

r3n has put together an executive staff that works really damn hard. His ministers work their asses off each and every day, driving activity and bringing new members to the forum, integrating them into the community, increasing TNP's power and reputation, and making this a stronger, better place for all of us. They are goddamn superheroes.

I've been playing NS for over a decade. I've sat in practically every position that there is - not all in TNP, and not all recently, but even so. I'm absolutely one of the most "experienced" players here, even though I've been in TNP for only a year and a half or so. And you know what? I couldn't hold a candle to most of r3n's picks if you put me in their jobs. And I wouldn't want to!

It gets me furious when people start saying that the members of the cabinet are only there because of shadowy, back-room deals and insider trading of power. That kind of bollocks completely devalues the time and effort and love they have poured into their jobs, and it insults them with the assertion that they don't really deserve their position.

And it's insulting no matter who it's applied to - whether it's r3n, who was elected to a second term because of his boundless energy and drive and not a secret conspiracy of cabalists who want to beigify TNP, or Nwahs, who was elected speaker because of his experience serving as a deputy and his understanding of the role and not an IRC-based plan to put him in the role, or Kialga, who is quite new and lacks a lot of experience but earned his justiceship by being smart, articulate, and thoughtful and not because he sometimes hangs out in #tnp, or Gladio, who has served as defense minister for quite a while now, not because it's a cushy spot for a do-nothing retiree but because under him the NPA(F) is the largest it's been in years. Practically everyone who gets ahead in TNP government does it because they're good at what they do and they work hard at it - it's not at all surprising that claims that all of that is simply the work of a clique are upsetting to everyone who has served.

 

[PaulWallLibertarian42]

Id just like to say that I don't dislike anyone here. I do enjoy playing the game. And yes I admit my past makes me over sensitive at times, and sometimes I really *do* think people just don't like me for whatever number of infinite reasons..to my posting style, my avatar, or because im some evil libertarian(though I think some people really dont understand libertarianism - on my personal facebook page just the other day I got called a Republican - I just laughed. ..though folks think libertarians are some fringe crazys...I really think libertarianism is somewhere in the moderate center...and liberal democrats and conservative republicans are on either side of the crazy spectrum ..though topic for another debate maybe?)

 

[Romanoffia]

What is being pointed out by the "Oligarchy" metaphor has happened before in TNP and continues to happen because people with elitist mentalities always manage to repeat the same mistakes. It is "THE THEORY AND PRACTICE OF OLIGARCHICAL COLLECTIVISM" from Orwell's book 1984 playing itself out in the context of TNP and NS in general.

Those of you with a more intellectual bent and critical thinking abilities will take the time to read this: "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchichal Collectivism" (the 'book within a book', as it were). Those who simply want to play out what Orwell warns everyone about will simply dismiss this altogether and continue to bash anyone who actually thinks critically or objectively about where this region is actually heading if we don't take care.

We are all products of the real world and to think that this does not play into the NS world is utter folly. By either ignorance or direct intentions, people always fall into the same trap because they are unwilling to try anything new that conflicts with their own 'will to power'. When anything challenges the elitist power structure that inevitably evolves time and time again in TNP or NS in general, the 'elitists' slide towards heavy handed tactics and direct attacks on anyone who challenges their paradigm.

Why does this constantly happen? There is an old adage in horse training that says where knowledge and skill end, brutality begins. When confronted with ideas and beliefs that they cannot understand or compete with, those with an elitist mentality resort to overt shows of force to silence any and all opposition or critical thinking. It is the brutal enforcement of 'group think' and the beating into submission of anyone who has the colossal gall to actually think independently or speak their mind. Hence, when something that goes against the grain or offers a different and competing idea comes up, no matter how civil or legitimate it is, the result may be administrative action that is selective in its enforcement. Everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others and that is the root of the problem.

Those with truly open minds will openly discuss ideas; those who are close minded and foolish will simply dismiss anything that resembles critical, independent or original thought and violently attack the messengers.

And the more they attack individual thought and critical thinking, the more they prove that the existence of an unwittingly produced 'Oligarchy'.

And all you have to do to see it clearly is to observe who says what in this thread.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

I think you need some sort of clear marker for when you are joking, because that post you just made is completely indistinguishable from the sort of post that you said was entirely in jest earlier in this thread.

 

[SillyString]

 

[Democratic Donkeys]

I was impressed that JhonsJoe decided to apologise for making false accusations about fake voting. I think it will be interesting to see where he goes in the next few months.

Same here, and while only time will tell whether the apology is signalling a real change, it is certainly a good start. It is refreshing to see a new player actually respond to criticism in a positive way instead of doubling down on their position and wearing obduracy as a badge of pride.

 

[Eluvatar]

I was impressed that JhonsJoe decided to apologise for making false accusations about fake voting. I think it will be interesting to see where he goes in the next few months.

Same here, and while only time will tell whether the apology is signalling a real change, it is certainly a good start. It is refreshing to see a new player actually respond to criticism in a positive way instead of doubling down on their position and wearing obduracy as a badge of pride.

 

[Great Bights Mum]

Thank you for your apology, JJ. It takes maturity to do that.

 

[Romanoffia]

I think you need some sort of clear marker for when you are joking, because that post you just made is completely indistinguishable from the sort of post that you said was entirely in jest earlier in this thread.

Considering the dog-piling perpetrated by what seems to be the same group of people, and the fact that the term "Oligarchy" gets that same group of people's knickers in such and epic twist, it gives people pause for thought as to whether the joke hits too close to home.

Considering the fact that there is so much effort on the part of some in the form of such uncivil, personal and uncouth attacks that the joke may unintentionally turn out not to be a joke.

Let me ask you this question: if there isn't a close knit group of 'elites' that are working to assure they have all the power and control everything in this region, then why all the nasty and perpetual personal attacks by the same group of people? Why shouldn't they just laugh it off instead of acting in precisely the fashion that proves that their is a 'power elite' who will marginalise anyone who disagrees or speaks their mind? Think about that for a while.

Let me give you a little political science advise here:

When you have the same select group of people who perpetually marginalise, attack and otherwise abuse simply because they disagree (in RP or RL as PallWall pointed out earlier) and who happen to be forum admins and/or global moderators, those who don't fall in line with the 'party line' will eventually coalesce into a whole class of people who are going to become rebellious. If you keep it up long enough, the rebellious types will quickly outnumber those who maintain power by constantly attacking people who do not serve their personal will to power.

I'm not going to mention any particular names, but I see the same group of people who get away with metaphorical murder for their quite open flame-baiting in which people who dare to disagree with them on any level. These same people will use any authority they have to silence any opposition by marginalising anyone who calls them out. It's metaphorical thuggery.

And the group of people I am speaking of do indeed constitute an 'Oligarcy' of 'elites' whether or not they actually realise it (and, most of them do realise it).

Those who are constantly dog-piled on are a bit smarter than anything TNP has ever seen before in the face of so much unintentional or intentional (as it were) corruption of the whole system. They will use all the legal means to obtain change.

Frankly, I and a few others are getting a bit tired of being constantly defecated upon by the same select group of individuals and barring government by administration, we will work for some serious change in this region. That is if we aren't thugged out of the region by constant harassment.

 

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Nine paragraphs and no answer to the question in the post that was quoted.