Christianity Bill

A bill to recognize Christianity as a State Religion.

Should have probably waited for the current voting on the religious compromise to finish...

It's probably not going to pass.

I think we should consider whether or not Christianity has even come remotely close to making an impact on our regional culture to be considered on par with flemingovianiam.

One other point: flemingovianism is a made up religion/for fun. Having Christianity as an official religion may make religion in tnp cross into ooc boundaries. I wouldn't want non-Christians to feel unwelcome here.

I'm really just trying to prove a point.

What McM said - I was just about to post similar.

One of the nice things about TNP, for me, is that it is NOT real life. Roleplay is one thing. OOC is another.

Lajikstan:

I'm really just trying to prove a point.

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that

Lajikstan, i think the point you are proving is one I have been making on IRC.

Currently, if a religion wishes official status, it needs to go to the RA and gauge approval. Only those the RA approves can be “official”. That seems right to me.

Under the legislation proposed by Grosse, it is down to the whim of the delegate or other official. A delegate could use grosse’s law, for example, to introduce something truly distasteful, and the RA would have no say in the matter.

mcmasterdonia:

I think we should consider whether or not Christianity has even come remotely close to making an impact on our regional culture to be considered on par with flemingovianiam.

One other point: flemingovianism is a made up religion/for fun. Having Christianity as an official religion may make religion in tnp cross into ooc boundaries. I wouldn't want non-Christians to feel unwelcome here.

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Exactly what he said, this isn't going to pass. If it's just to prove a point you could have gone about it in a more productive way.

I don't really want it to pass, that's my point!

I see no problem with this legislation should the currently proposed amendment fail. (But yes, of course it is intended to make a point)

Lajikstan, if you wish to pursue this, I think it would do better as a separate clause, rather than just tagging "and christianity" to 7.3

I would suggest you do two things:

first, rename 7.3 as "Religious Observance: Flemingovianism"

Second, introduce "7.4: Religious Observance: Christianity", with the text of 7.3 altered to refer to Christianity.

i think that is a lot neater and tidier.

I realise your proposal served only to show how the Regional Assembly will retain control of these matters (rather than the Executive) should grosse's proposal fail, so I think this is useful advice to future, serious proposals.

OOO Christianity, one question. Why? Why have Christianity as the Official Region Religion of The North Pacific. I'm personally not entirely against it, being christian myself, but Christianity is something I believe does not belong on the forum

If we're bringing RL religions up - If Christianity is going to be added then I also want Wicca, Asatru, Kemetic Reconstruction, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Islam, Judaism, Gnostic Christianity, Rosicrucianism, etc. Recongized. Equal protection under the law. No?

Then lets stick to the made up fictional role play religions.

Equal Protection under the law for ALL role play religions not just Flemingovianism is what I think the compromise solutions are trying to do. That way Church of the Thirteen, or any other made up fictional Role Play Religion has a chance for equal protection under the law not just Flemingovianism.

OOC: I am a Christian.

IC: What is this Christianity and why should we adopt it as a state religion. At least Flemingovianism is rooted in TNP culture. I am really not excited about religion and our government connecting on any level.

Lajikstan,

From the beginning I expressed strong dislike for any religion.
To me, whether in-game or not, people's believes should always stay out of the government.
Once it is in it, like the Flem religion, it only causes tensions and head aches.
Therefore, I believe that religions should always remain on the cultural side of a region, but not the government side.
Secondly, I don't think that bringing in a Real Life religion to TNP is a great idea. I am one hundred percent sure it will cause many people to leave. Lastly, we have already seen the tensions that were caused by a fictional religion, can you imagine what would happen if we brought in a Real Life one?

~Tomb

EDIT: Corrected Sequence

I think we can safely ignore the Christianity angle - it has been admitted that this proposal was only brought to make a point.

I am not sure the exact point that Lajikstan was hoping to make, but the point he made admirably is that under current laws, any religion seeking official recognition has to pass the scrutiny of the Regional Assembly, and trust me, that is a tough test to pass.

Should the Grosse bill pass, the only thing a religion will need to gain official recognition is the OK of the "Government"* which, capitalized, is usually taken to mean the executive - the delegate or minister of culture, presumably.

We have had a succession of sensible delegates recently. But in the past we have had some who were batshit insane. I would rather trust the Regional Assembly, personally.



*"The Government may register such religions and churches... "

Lajikstan:

I'm really just trying to prove a point.

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The point being that you really don't get why the Flem bill was passed in the first place?

Ok.

any religion seeking official recognition has to pass the scrutiny of the Regional Assembly, and trust me, that is a tough test to pass.

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That's my point

Lajikstan:

any religion seeking official recognition has to pass the scrutiny of the Regional Assembly, and trust me, that is a tough test to pass.

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That's my point

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and MY point is that the grosse act removes that tough test.

I see the can of worms opening up again.

For the sake of entertainment - we have no official or impartial mechanics in the legal code concerning the process of recognising any religion or religions and official state religions (that is, other than legislating it in individual bills).

This brings up an interesting conundrum. If legislation fails to recognise a specific religion, then it is a defacto form of legalised discrimination against that religion. To wit: it allows a 'tyranny of the majority' to deny equality to all religions. It also creates discrimination against various religions by virtue of the inequality created by voting down any specific religion or religions. Such discrimination would by the definition of discrimination discriminate against religions that did not succeed in getting recognised as an official state religion.

Thinking about this, perhaps Grosseschnauzer should have designed his bill as an addition to the legal code rather than a modification of a specific part of the existing code.

But if we are going to have official state religions, we should have an impartial mechanism with a threshold of requirements for recognition as a state religion.

A better idea, considering this is a role playing issue, is that we have a pinned thread in the Temple section of the forum in which 'religions' can be added to a directory if 'religions' in TNP. Then, create a sub-forum in which the various 'churches' are arranged in a fashion like we offer to embassies from other regions and put someone in charge of moderating that section of the Agora.

Any thoughts on this last point?