A Compromise on Religious Observance

I have decided to vote in favor of this bill simply because it will allow for more religious freedom than the current bill, imo.
 
Eluvatar:
I am voting against this bill due to its use of "he or she" and for no other reason. (I do support changing that part of our legal code).
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Elu, that came from a proposed addition from Yrkidding. It would make more sense to adopt this bill and then address all such usage issues in the Legal Code as a separate bill afterwards.

And I would note that there were several days in the extended formal debate where you could have raised that issue and I invited that such concerns be raised so they could be addressed in the extended formal debate period.

So I would encourage you to support the bill so it doesn't have to be brought back for another round.
 
It concerns me that under this bill, the voting citizens of TNP - that is, the members of the RA - will have next to no input on what will be officially recognized religions of TNP. The extent of their input, in fact, is limited to voting for a delegate and voting in any possible recall motion.

I think this is an inappropriate assignment of power. Official recognition and adoption of something ought to fall to the RA, and always has - it is the RA which has considered official anthems, flags, holidays, animals, and the like. In my opinion, that is how it should stay.
 
SillyString:
...it is the RA which has considered official anthems, flags, holidays, animals, and the like.
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Really? So when the Ministry of Culture recently declared an identity crisis and, by using votes on the Nationstates site, declared the regional anthem, the regional book, the regional animal, and the regional dish that was the RA considering them? I recall no votes put forth infront of the RA to determine these official items, what makes those any different from an official religion? I heard no uproar when these things were declared. If anything I'd like to submit them as proof that the Ministry of Culture has a track record of dealing with these things in a correct manner by surveying all members of the TNP, RA or otherwise, on what should be our official x, y, and z. It is clear proof that the Ministry already has an appropriate potential system for selecting things of this nature and also proves that (please note this is evidence-based) the government may successfully select things of this nature without the interference of the delegate.

Source: Regional Identity Crisis.
 
Yrkidding:
So when the Ministry of Culture recently declared an identity crisis and, by using votes on the Nationstates site, declared the regional anthem, the regional book, the regional animal, and the regional dish that was the RA considering them? I recall no votes put forth infront of the RA to determine these official items, what makes those any different from an official religion?
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They weren't, and aren't, official.
 
From the Regional Anthem section:

"It is official! The region has decided that I Fought The Law by The Clash should be the regional anthem."

From the Regional Book section:

"It took us a record of four polls, but we finally have a book! Go the F*** to Sleep by Adam Mansbach ...To celebrate the event, I've instructed the Minister of Books and Printers to prepare a "TNP official book" special edition of Go the F*** to Sleep."

From the Regional Animal section:

"So, as you probably all noticed, voting for regional animal is now over. After three polls, the McMasterdonian Lion has been declared the official regional animal..."

I may very well be missing something in those statements as I have been awake many hours longer than I should be, but what interpretation am I to make of those statements if not to mean that they have been officially adopted as symbols of the region? Especially in the case of the McMasterdonian Lion's explicit declaration as "official regional animal"? And I needn't remind you these are the words of the Delegate, merely summing up the results of the Ministry of Culture's efforts.
 
Don't get me wrong, they're fun activities and all, but they have no legal significance or permanence (any delegate could change them at will in the future, without consulting with anybody), nor any genuine special status within the region.

I would, in addition, hazard a guess, that the vast majority of TNPers could not name any of those things on demand, if they even recalled that such an announcement had been posted in the first place.

Nominations and polling are fun, and a good way to increase peoples' sense of camaraderie, and that's great! I'm not looking to stand in the way of that. But the lasting impact shouldn't be overstated.
 
SillyString is correct of course. We have had other polls in the past about similar questions. The culture crisis was for fun, the results of that though have no legal significance whatsoever.
 
The Regional Assembly shouldn't be in the business of deciding which religions are "official."

If the R.A. wants, at a later point, discuss what criteria would be appropriate that is neither oppressive or frivolous, that should be a separate question. It may be, however, that no legislation on that point would be found appropriate or necessary as the question initially should be one handled by the executive branch in assuring the execution of the laws of the region.
 
Yrkidding:
From the Regional Anthem section:

"It is official! The region has decided that I Fought The Law by The Clash should be the regional anthem."

From the Regional Book section:

"It took us a record of four polls, but we finally have a book! Go the F*** to Sleep by Adam Mansbach ...To celebrate the event, I've instructed the Minister of Books and Printers to prepare a "TNP official book" special edition of Go the F*** to Sleep."

From the Regional Animal section:

"So, as you probably all noticed, voting for regional animal is now over. After three polls, the McMasterdonian Lion has been declared the official regional animal..."

I may very well be missing something in those statements as I have been awake many hours longer than I should be, but what interpretation am I to make of those statements if not to mean that they have been officially adopted as symbols of the region? Especially in the case of the McMasterdonian Lion's explicit declaration as "official regional animal"? And I needn't remind you these are the words of the Delegate, merely summing up the results of the Ministry of Culture's efforts.
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legalizing the identity crisis

I tried to have a discussion to legally make the offical anthem, dish, book, Animal offical-offical. But that didnt go anywhere in the RA.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
The Regional Assembly shouldn't be in the business of deciding which religions are "official."

If the R.A. wants, at a later point, discuss what criteria would be appropriate that is neither oppressive or frivolous, that should be a separate question. It may be, however, that no legislation on that point would be found appropriate or necessary as the question initially should be one handled by the executive branch in assuring the execution of the laws of the region.
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I dont think the RA, or any extension of TNP govt should be deciding offical religion period. It should be left up to private citizens to decide how to worship or not amongst themselves. But that is neither here nor there.
 
When we have something that has a proven track record of cultural contributions to TNP, then yes, we very much should have a conversation on whether we want it to be an official TNP thing.
 
McM:
The culture crisis was for fun, the results of that though have no legal significance whatsoever.
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Since it has been stated many times (by many people) that Flemingovianism is meant for roleplay and for fun, the bolded part of your statement should also apply to that.

PWL42:
I dont think the RA, or any extension of TNP govt should be deciding offical religion period.
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Grosse:
The Regional Assembly shouldn't be in the business of deciding which religions are "official."
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Couldn't agree more. I was going to vote against this bill solely for the reason there should be no special recognition in the Legal Code for any religion. But I am capable of compromise (unlike some). When I joined this forum, Flemingovianism was already established. But Flem didn't pursue it, and actively discouraged any attempts to revive it (he was quite adamant about it too). He had a major sulk going because the RA (at the time) voted down his first attempt at self aggrandizement (ie. elevation to 'official' status).

Nierr:
When we have something that has a proven track record of cultural contributions to TNP, then yes, we very much should have a conversation on whether we want it to be an official TNP thing.
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There is no proven track record regarding any 'state religion' (or any variation of that for that matter) in TNP. This issue has only served to divide the community.
 
falapatorius:
Since it has been stated many times (by many people) that Flemingovianism is meant for roleplay and for fun, the bolded part of your statement should also apply to that.
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"Roleplay" and "fun" are not incompatible with official, or with legally recognized.

The map of TNP, for example, though sometimes updated only intermittently, is used for fun and roleplay and still considered official (interestingly, this is true despite not being formally adopted. I would guess that this is due to its nature: maps in NS need to be highly variable, to accommodate rapidly changing national memberships and territory claims, and are thus unsuitable for legislative upkeep).

Similarly, Flemingovianism can have legal significance as an officially recognized regional religion without that significance amounting to anything more than "fun" and "roleplay".
 
I believe a clause about persons who lack a religion should be added. Clause 19 seems weak to me in that regard.
 
falapatorius:
Nierr:
When we have something that has a proven track record of cultural contributions to TNP, then yes, we very much should have a conversation on whether we want it to be an official TNP thing.
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There is no proven track record regarding any 'state religion' (or any variation of that for that matter) in TNP. This issue has only served to divide the community.
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There is very much a proven track record of Flemingovianism contributing to this region's culture.

The fact that some people can't reconcile the fact that the majority want something they don't, is no one's fault but their own and the petulant whining about it is, at this point, just boring.
 
Well, the petulant whining about petulant whining is getting pretty boring in a most petulant way. What is even more boring in a most irritating way is this petulant use of the word petulant in a completely improper way and with total disregard for the actual definition of the word petulant. :lol:
 
O Great and Powerful Augur, please tell us what the stars say about the fate of this vote! Without such a divine prediction, we will have no way to know what the future may hold!
 
I wonder if someone has the cajones to introduce a bill making Flemingovianism the only permissible religion in the region. Now that would really liven things up a bit, in a demented sort of way. :lol:
 
Romanoffia:
I wonder if someone has the cajones to introduce a bill making Flemingovianism the only permissible religion in the region. Now that would really liven things up a bit, in a demented sort of way. :lol:
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That would, correctly, not be allowed under the bill of rights.

Edit: and I think we have all had enough of doing the endless rounds of the regional assembly over this issue.
 
flemingovia:
Romanoffia:
I wonder if someone has the cajones to introduce a bill making Flemingovianism the only permissible religion in the region. Now that would really liven things up a bit, in a demented sort of way. :lol:
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That would, correctly, not be allowed under the bill of rights.

Edit: and I think we have all had enough of doing the endless rounds of the regional assembly over this issue.
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But that would be the natural outgrowth of having an official state religion.

It's very simple to accomplish:

1.) You load the Court with practitioners of the official state religion.

2.) You pass a law making the State Religion the only permissible religion in the region.

3.) You then wait for someone to sue in the Court for the law to be declared unconstitutional.

4.) The the Court, populated by at least two practitioners of the official state religion, decides that the religions freedom section of the BOR is so nebulously written that it only implies that you have the right to freedom of worship as long as it is the official state religion!



Now, of course, if such a law was proposed by an RA member, the Speaker could conceivably close the thread because the law itself would be "unconstitutional" - however such an action by the Speaker would be unconstitutional because the Speaker, as a member of the Legislative Branch cannot make constitutional determinations (which would be the exclusive purvey of the Court). If the Speaker ever quelched the bill or debate on such a bill, he would be in total violation of the Constitution!

See what I am driving at?

Any law can be passed even if it is clearly unconstitutional and can only be challenged by someone who has 'standing' by virtue of being actually injured by said law. And then it would still take the Court to make the actual determination that such a law is unconstitutional as a result of a suit being filed.

Now consider the fact that the Court can make a decision which is entirely arbitrary and in complete defiance of any provisions of the Constitution or BOR and even do so without even so much as an explanation as to the reasoning behind that decision.

Imagine how much legalised persecution by the state on religious grounds would liven up RP!

I mean, think about it - you, I and everyone else knows that eventually someone will come up with a really popular religion that will eventually replace Flemingovianism as the official state religion. That is just a matter of time, and eventually it will happen given that someone is a sufficiently big enough jackass to gather enough support behind the scenes, secretly, of course, to ram such legislation through (to change the official state religion).

So, given that, would it not be logical to prevent such an eventuality by making the lingua franca official state religion the only acceptable religion? I mean, of course, such an action would only serve to save the immortal souls of those who haven't accepted the official state religion! :w00t:
 
Romanoffia:
flemingovia:
Romanoffia:
I wonder if someone has the cajones to introduce a bill making Flemingovianism the only permissible religion in the region. Now that would really liven things up a bit, in a demented sort of way. :lol:
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That would, correctly, not be allowed under the bill of rights.

Edit: and I think we have all had enough of doing the endless rounds of the regional assembly over this issue.
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But that would be the natural outgrowth of having an official state religion.

It's very simple to accomplish:

1.) You load the Court with practitioners of the official state religion.

2.) You pass a law making the State Religion the only permissible religion in the region.

3.) You then wait for someone to sue in the Court for the law to be declared unconstitutional.

4.) The the Court, populated by at least two practitioners of the official state religion, decides that the religions freedom section of the BOR is so nebulously written that it only implies that you have the right to freedom of worship as long as it is the official state religion!



Now, of course, if such a law was proposed by an RA member, the Speaker could conceivably close the thread because the law itself would be "unconstitutional" - however such an action by the Speaker would be unconstitutional because the Speaker, as a member of the Legislative Branch cannot make constitutional determinations (which would be the exclusive purvey of the Court). If the Speaker ever quelched the bill or debate on such a bill, he would be in total violation of the Constitution!

See what I am driving at?

Any law can be passed even if it is clearly unconstitutional and can only be challenged by someone who has 'standing' by virtue of being actually injured by said law. And then it would still take the Court to make the actual determination that such a law is unconstitutional as a result of a suit being filed.

Now consider the fact that the Court can make a decision which is entirely arbitrary and in complete defiance of any provisions of the Constitution or BOR and even do so without even so much as an explanation as to the reasoning behind that decision.

Imagine how much legalised persecution by the state on religious grounds would liven up RP!

I mean, think about it - you, I and everyone else knows that eventually someone will come up with a really popular religion that will eventually replace Flemingovianism as the official state religion. That is just a matter of time, and eventually it will happen given that someone is a sufficiently big enough jackass to gather enough support behind the scenes, secretly, of course, to ram such legislation through (to change the official state religion).

So, given that, would it not be logical to prevent such an eventuality by making the lingua franca official state religion the only acceptable religion? I mean, of course, such an action would only serve to save the immortal souls of those who haven't accepted the official state religion! :w00t:
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This strangely makes sense, at least the top half does. To put it in simpler terms tied to an episode of West Wing I just watched, the GOP or RA or whatever can introduce a bill or an amendment to a bill saying "hey we're banning gay marriage outright". Now that would be pretty unconstitutional but you cannot block the vote or kill the bill in any other way than voting on it. The only constitutional way would be for the courts, after it passed, to declare uncon. and strike it down. I think it's a good system, go democracy yay!

or am I way off...
 
No, you are right on the button there. This is exactly the process by which laws are tested and the extent of constitutional rights are actually determined in democratic republics and pure democracies.

There are two ways to bring about constitutional or legal change: constructive and destructive means. Follow the logic here:


In the end, those who want to limit, restrict, dissuade or abolish the practice of certain 'rights' always win in the end, no matter what. Consider the fact that historically speaking concerning the vast scope and time of human existance, tyranny and slavery are by far the norm. The natural tendency of any government is towards tyranny and totalitarianism (until it collapses and starts over again). A perfect example was the fall of Tsarist Russia and the creation of the Soviet Union - it went from bad to worse, and all in the name of 'freedom' and 'altruism'.

State religions are always implemented with the superficial goal of 'saving souls from eternal damnation' as the 'altruistic' end. Of course, we all know that the ultimate goal is total control and a monopoly of power. That's just how history goes be it real history or RP history. The rights of the individual are eventually eroded in favour of the authority of the state until individuals cease to 'exist' and individuals then become a function of the state and only a function of the state - in which instance they can become 'sacrificed' for the benefit of the 'community'/'state' as a matter of 'altruistic goals'. Think about it.

Oswald Spengler wrote a really great book called Der Untergang des Abendlandes (The Decline of The West) that details exactly how this happens. His historically accurate theory essentially states that all nations, governments, civilizations and cultures undergo the same processes that a living organism undergoes, and eventually kicks the bucket by natural processes.

Having been in TNP for so many years, I have seen this process repeat itself over and over again, each time coming closer to the brink of total annihilation of the 'state'. Each time we tend to correct most of the growing problems but somehow always fall short and we then take a step downwards on the stairway of failure. Eventually, it will fail and we always find a way to reset ourselves back to our original intents. It's almost like a natural law like gravity.

The reason why this happens is that entropy always wins over order. The more order you seek to impose, the greater the resulting chaos shall be. Once there is sufficient chaos, order spontaneously springs up and the process starts all over again.


For simplicity's sake, I'm going to nobble this item for those of you who don't have the time to read the whole book. But this is the process or stages of development that TNP goes through on a regular basis:



Spring: Intuition, powerful cultural creation from awakening souls, unity and abundance.

Religion: Birth of a grand myth signifying a new conception of God. Fear and longing for the world. Earliest metaphysical organization of the world. High scholasticism.
Art: Religious art considered as an integrated part of religious devotion. Gothic cathedrals, Doric temples. Development of Ornamental art as against the persistent, ahistorical type of Imitative art.
Politics: Feudalism, warrior aristocracies. Division between two primary Estates: Nobility, which is the estate proper, contains within itself the highest aspirations of its race and is therefore symbolic of the particular people in question, as well as being representative of Time in the sense of Directedness and Destiny; and Priesthood, which is the anti-Estate, pursuing eternal Truth and attempting to subordinate Blood to Intellect primarily through asceticism, but also through scholasticism.

Summer: Maturing consciousness. Earliest urban-civil society and critical thought.

Religion: Reformation: revolt of the religious moderates against the early religion. Beginnings of a purely philosophical movement. Contrasting idealistic and realistic systems. Mathematical breakthroughs leading to a new conception of the world. Rationalism. The depletion of mysticism from religion.
Art: Development of high artistic traditions. Both artistic medium and style express the fundamental nature of the soul of the culture. Struggle between different artistic mediums, representing the culture's striving to discover its proper mode of self-representation.
Politics: Absolutist states. Conflicts between aristocracy and monarchy. The political centre shifts from castles and estates to the cities.

Autumn: Urban rise. High point of disciplined organizational strength.

Religion: Faith in the omnipotence of rationality. Cult of Nature. The height of mathematical thought. The last idealists. Theories of knowledge and logic.
Art: Fulfillment of high artistic potentials of culture- sculpture in Greece, contrapuntal music in the West. At the beginning of Autumn, art possesses complete freedom to manifest the Destiny-vision of a people through its particular perfected formal technique. However, the end of Autumn witnesses the exhaustion of the possibilities of that technique, leading to craft-art in imitation of the great style as well as artistic revolt.
Politics: Struggles between the aristocracy and the bourgeoisie. Revolutions. Napoleonism.

Winter: Coming fissure in the world-urban civilization. Exhaustion of mental organization strength. Irreligiousness rises.

Religion: Materialism: Cults of science, utility, and luck. Ethical-social ideals: philosophy without mathematics, skepticism. The last mathematical thinkers. Decline of abstract thinkers, and the rise of specialized academic philosophy. Spread of the last ideas.
Art: End of symbolic art. All art becomes meaningless subjects of fashion.
Politics: Democracy, meritocracy, plutocracy, followed by caesarism and bureaucracy.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West
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We are half way through "Winter" in TNP.
 
^ Great read, thanks for that Roman. You can really see the rise and decline of just about anything. Nothing is endless.
 
I think it would be correct to say that the debate on the bill has concluded. Members who wish to further contemplate the merits of having a court capable of making constitutional determinations should do so in a another thread.
 
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