[WITHDRAWN] Petition to the Admin Team

I was thinking about that, Rach. Our community is multi-faceted. Some folks, Like Grosse and R3N, enjoy the legislative aspect. Others enjoy the military. Some only really get involved in OOC (remember Rocketman?) or Roleplay and so on.

I do not think we would say that any of them were not part of our community. So I wonder why some people consider being involved in the administration side of TNP not enough of an investment in the community.

I bet PunkD spends more time on the forum, doing admin tasks, than many people who are considered "true blue".
 
I also feel like any security risk is negligible; I'm fairly certain TNP has had other active defender admins (if not, whoopsies) and I know for a fact that Eluvatar was an admin on LWUs board. If we can't trust Punk D while running a defender org that is for fun, then idk who we can trust :P

Furthermore, wouldn't your secret military areas be part of a separate mask from the admin one? If so... it'd be pretty easy to deduce if Punk D was looking at it by seeing his current mask or looking if he amends his account often :P
 
Rach:
I also feel like any security risk is negligible; I'm fairly certain TNP has had other active defender admins (if not, whoopsies) and I know for a fact that Eluvatar was an admin on LWUs board.
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Point of order: Elu was also once a member of LWU.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Rach:
I also feel like any security risk is negligible; I'm fairly certain TNP has had other active defender admins (if not, whoopsies) and I know for a fact that Eluvatar was an admin on LWUs board.
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Point of order: Elu was also once a member of LWU.
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Wasn't Punk D a member of TNP? :P

Also, would Punk D maintaining a nation in the region be enough to satisfy the critics?
 
I'd also like to point out that Elu stopped being an Admin of LWU when he quit and, here in TNP, he regularly resigns as Admin whenever he takes a break from NS.

I understand that he might have the password to the root account, but knowing Eluvatar he wouldn't use it until he is once again active in TNP.
 
We've changed the process of dealing with inactive admin because (a) it was creating the impression of a revolving door when that actually wasn't the case and (b) because being an admin is, in a sense, an honor denoting the trust of the region and we shouldn't be taking that away willy-nilly. That was the motive for creating a group for admin emeritus, and Elu is in that group until he returns to activity on these forums.
 
I am withdrawing my support of the petition. I want to apologize to Punk D. I see that he cares very much about TNP. I originally thought that citizenship was all that matters. I obviously was not thinking about the whole picture. I did not think about how being an admin is an honor based on trust and how many others do not consider TNP their main region. But nothing excuses me from the fact that I signed a petition that blatantly attacks Punk D. I am truly sorry.
 
PaulWallLibertarian42:
For the record I only skimmed the OP and the PMs I got about this, but I have yet to see anything to suggest that Punk D doesnt have the intrests of the forum at heart. I understand the desire to want a TNPer who is active to be an administrator but I also feel it is the administrators job to be neutral calculating and strictly business so at the same time it can be a good thing to have someone with no inside intrests who can do the job and make correct calls without bias getting in the way. So certianly the powers that be could make exceptions to allow those without nations or an active presence in TNP to be forum mods and admins and to be a neutral third party and carry out thier duties in good faith at the discretin of the admin staff until such a time trust is broken or whatever.

I have yet to see any thing to suggest punk D has violated any TNP trust. Futhermore I think punk D does a great job from what I can see. And until shown otherwise I think Punk D should ignore the critism and continue to work and be a great assest to the TNP forum admin team. TnP should be proud to have him serve the board.
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Aside from the bad spelling ( :P ) I agree with this
Crushing Our Enemies:
Democratic Donkeys:
I don't really care that he has no nation here, that is a trivial distinction. You said yourself, he does an excellent job as an admin, and that is all that really matters.
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Ability to do the work of an admin is not all that matters. The position of admin is a position of trust, and thus the trust of the forum community matters as well. There is a lot on this forum that's not meant to go beyond this community, and while I'm not accusing punk of anything now, or in the near future, as long as he remains outside the community and maintaining other commitments in NS, he is a potential security risk. Maybe not this year, or the next, but the potential is there.
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I find this argument to be the start of a really slippery slope. "The potential" exists for anyone to be a security risk. PunkD hasn't appeared to do anything untoward as admin, there are no violations of TNP's privacy to point to. The possibility that something bad might happen isn't strong enough to stand up against the hard work he does do.
Crushing Our Enemies:
It's not so much that his continued presence jeopardizes our security. But consider this.

1. Do potential motivations to abuse his admin position exist? Yes (outside commitments)
2. If he decided to, would he be caught? Almost certainly not
3. Even if he were caught, would he suffer any in-game repercussions? No

I don't know Punk very well. Neither do a lot of people in this community, and neither will anyone else who ever joins this community, because Punk is not involved in it. The admins trust him, but that doesn't entail the trust of the community, and while I'm certainly not accusing Punk of anything, I think this situation is problematic.
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1) addressed above
2) Abuses usually, eventually out. But reality is, this is a game. The consequences of anything are kindof meaningless.
3) Quite frankly, in game repercussions are BS. Losing your reputation on NS? More permanent. Losing your admin position due to a betrayal? Permanent.
Crushing Our Enemies:
The text of the petition overemphasizes the security aspect, and overplays the significance Punk's involvement in LRI. I do think it is a potential security risk to have an admin who is involved in other regions but not involved in this one, but I worded that concern much too strongly in the petition. If I'd taken more time to edit it, I would have toned that down a good bit.
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Sorry to sound a bit snarky, but perhaps you should have taken that time. You can't expect people to ignore what has been posted as the petition just because (after the fact), you decide to change the meaning/emphasis.
Crushing Our Enemies:
I did not mean for this to sound like a personal attack. However, regardless of the text of the petition, there are real issues at play here that are not personal: TNP admins ought to be TNPers. Everyone who signed the petition agrees with that. Being a TNPer means more than having a nation in the region. I'd be willing to bet that all 23 agree with that one too.
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What does being a "TNPer" mean then? PunkD is willing to put in serious amounts of time for no RL payoff except because it makes him happy to keep TNP functioning smoothly. 'Cause what other reason would he have at this point?

But really, I truly, deeply object to the notion of defining what it means to be a TNPer. To me, lots of people that no longer maintain nations in TNP or even play the damn game at all are TNPers. If we say TNP and you get warm fuzzies, then you are a TNPer.

Yes, we have defined it for the RA, the legislative body, the one that has actual in game power over things. And admins are chosen that are trusted by the admins (and stay active as an admin) continue to be admins. How well everyone knows the admins doesn't really seem a critical factor. Trust is, I will grant you. But there has been absolutely no evidence shown that that trust has been broken by PunkD, nor any proof that he will at some time in the future.

And by all means, if at some time in the future someone finds the evidence, feel free to come back to this thread and say, I TOLD YOU SO!!!!! But until that point, my vote will be that PunkD stays on.
 
Former English Colony:
I find this argument to be the start of a really slippery slope. "The potential" exists for anyone to be a security risk. PunkD hasn't appeared to do anything untoward as admin, there are no violations of TNP's privacy to point to.
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I respectfully request the admin team 'consider' a little quicker. Some petitioners have given sober second thought to their positions. Will Punk D be removed or not?
 
falapatorius:
]I respectfully request the admin team 'consider' a little quicker. Some petitioners have given sober second thought to their positions. Will Punk D be removed or not?
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Flaptorius, This is a little rich in a region where criminal trials can take many months and simple legal reviews can take weeks.

This petition was only presented less than 48 hours ago, has generated five pages of debate here alone (let alone the consideration that is taking place in the moderation and admin area of the forum), and we are being asked to make a decision that impacts on, allegedly, the security of the region and the reputation of a real life player. We are being asked to say that he cannot be trusted.

And might I add that while this is being considered the admins are also expected to get on with the other admin duties that they do day in and day out.

So I respectfully request you in turn to please stop hassling and cut us some slack. We are doing the best that we can and the decision will be made, but it will not come, probably, before the weekend. Perhaps it will take a lot longer depending on what evidence is produced for us to consider.
 
flemingovia:
So I respectfully request you in turn to please stop hassling and cut us some slack.
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Haha.. hassling the admin team (is that possible?), good one. I think you want to drag this out til all the petitioners renounce their stance. Punk D is a good admin, he deserves to stay. No evidence to the contrary has been presented, and likely won't be. He's got my vote , for what it's worth.

*Edit* oops..
 
falapatorius:
flemingovia:
So I respectfully request you in turn to please stop hassling and cut us some slack.
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Haha.. hassling the admin team (is that possible?), good one. I think you want to drag this out til all the petitioners renounce their stance. Punk D is a good admin, he deserves to stay. No evidence to the contrary has been presented, and likely won't be. He's got my vote , for what it's worth.

*Edit* oops..
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I doubt that that is Flem's intentions, really. From my experience, the people here really take these kinds of things pretty darn seriously, and they will go all the way into looking at these issues.

(Also explains why the judicial system here is so... unique.)
 
Lord Nwahs:
I doubt that that is Flem's intentions, really. From my experience, the people here really take these kinds of things pretty darn seriously, and they will go all the way into looking at these issues.

(Also explains why the judicial system here is so... unique.)
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I see your point, but the petition didn't give any concrete reasons to oust Punk D. Speculation at best. If I'm hassling anyone, I apologize. Once again, my eyes have read something they shouldn't have. :duh:

*Edit* You know Flem better than I do, but It's probably better if you let him speak for himself. Wouldn't want to attribute your opinion (which I respect) to lip service.. no offense.*
 
It's one of those "hanged if they do, hanged if they don't" scenarios. If we were to give a knee-jerk reaction quickly we would be accused of accepting (or dismissing) the issue out of hand. If we take time over it, we would be accused of dragging our heels and hoping the issue goes away if we delay long enough.

Rest assured that we will deliver a decision as quickly as we can while taking long enough to ensure it is the right decision.
 
flemingovia:
It's one of those "hanged if they do, hanged if they don't" scenarios. If we were to give a knee-jerk reaction quickly we would be accused of accepting (or dismissing) the issue out of hand. If we take time over it, we would be accused of dragging our heels and hoping the issue goes away if we delay long enough.

Rest assured that we will deliver a decision as quickly as we can while taking long enough to ensure it is the right decision.
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Much better explanation. Thank you.
 
I'll be totally honest here. I signed the petition for two reasons:

1. I'm not a fan of Punk. He knows this. Most people in TNP know this. Not a secret.
2. People who hold trusted positions in TNP, whether it be in government or in forum administration, should at the least have a nation in or be a citizen of TNP.

1 can't be helped, but I don't think 2 is asking much.
 
Dude...this is getting sig-a-fied...lol...classic.

"1. I'm not a fan of Punk. He knows this. Most people in TNP know this. Not a secret."
 
Rach:
If he continues to do admin work, does that not make him part of the community?
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Addressing this in the abstract - a generic person - I don't think that it does.

Adminship isn't just an honor or a noble title, but a position of authority over the rest of the community. When the total interaction one gets with a person is under the exercise of their authority, one is not able to form a relationship as equal members of the community itself. Whether that's a friendly or adversarial relationship doesn't matter - the point is being able to do so on a level playing field.

To give an example, it's a reassuring thing to be debating (and potentially arguing) about legislation in #tnp with flem, and also ask him as an aside if he could check out a recent post in the admin requests thread, and for him to then handle it cheerfully and get right back to arguing how the legislation in question is a terrible idea.

That sort of varied interaction deepens the way individuals are able to relate to one another, and builds trust that actions taken by the more powerful party will not be petty or abusive or based on personal feelings about the parties involved. If I only ever interacted with flem in his admin capacity, I wouldn't have tangible examples to point to of this being the case.

I think many folks know me well. I've been around quite awhile. I'm one of the old farts. The newer folks certainly don't know me well at all, but they may not know many of the old farty admins.
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I addressed this tangentially before, but the ability of new people to get to know any admin is part of the issue (to me at least). Most of our admins do things within the region aside from their admin duties, which gives new TNPers a chance to interact with them within a different power dynamic. They might not know anybody when they join, but most they can get to know. That's a lot harder to do with an admin who isn't involved in the region at all - and a lot harder to explain when that admin is involved in other regions.
 
Sanctaria:
I'll be totally honest here. I signed the petition for two reasons:

1. I'm not a fan of Punk. He knows this. Most people in TNP know this. Not a secret.
.
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Thank you for the refreshing note of honesty.
 
I signed in support of the petition. *waits for the tomatoes*

The reasons I done so stem from my own views on how a community administration team, and the members of such a team should be involved within a community. I feel that they should be actively engaging in all aspects of the community and should also be in line with all relevant rules of said community.

It's brilliant that someone is insanely active on the admin side, great. But the administration team isn't the community, it's part of the community and there are many other aspects of TNP that PunkD could be involved in.

I do not think it is wrong for members of the community to think that there are concerns over PunkD's administrative position due to lack of involvement in the current TNP community, nor do I think that it would be too difficult or time consuming for PunkD to be more involved in the other aspects of this region.

Administrators need to be visible in the community, as do Global Mods (Flemingovia and DD do this particularly well) and it is important, I feel that new members to the community need to know who the administrators are to lessen the gap between Admins and normal users. I remember when I was new to NationStates that I felt a considerable sense of trepidation when it came to contacting administrators of the regional forums I was part of, simply because I was new and didn't think I'd be listened to.

Another such method would be to ensure that new citizens are actively aware of the Admin team; its role within the North Pacific, as well as the various histories that each Administrator has. I believe that it will help humanise the admin team and show them to be the same players as Joe Nation, or Sam Delegate.

Having the Administrators be more involved in a community, seen to be more approachable and friendly would go a long way to changing that sense of trepidation and hopefully seeing an increased retention rate in new members, as TNP can be vastly difficult to understand when you first join.

I have no personal vendettas here, nor do I have any personal reasons for adding my signature to the petition, and apologise to PunkD for any hurt feelings caused, it was not my intention.

-Raven
 
I was under the impression that this was what PunkD wanted. I'd asked about addressing him directly and was told he was aware of the complaints and was encouraging just this kind of public discussion. I also had some quibbles with the language of the thing(as I don't think his military alignment has any bearing on this, and need not be mentioned). I saw this as more of a declaration of concern rather than an outright indictment of PunkD's intent.

That said, this thread has since ballooned, and I need to read it all to figure out what's going on. ;)
 
Since the administrative team is fine with non-citizens who have no nation in the region serving as administrators, I wholeheartedly sign this petition as a non-citizen with no nation in the region and no vested interest in the region.

See how absurd that is? Exactly.
 
Cormac:
Since the administrative team is fine with non-citizens who have no nation in the region serving as administrators, I wholeheartedly sign this petition as a non-citizen with no nation in the region and no vested interest in the region.

See how absurd that is? Exactly.
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A petition is not a legal document. Whether your name is added to the list of petitioners is very much up to the ones circulating it.
 
I might as well add my two cents here seeing as my name is alphabetically first last I looked.

I have nothing against PunkD, last I checked he and I haven't really had much-any interactions, so this can as a result be no way personal, and if it has been taken in any other way way I apologize both for that and the time it took me to clarify this.

My interest in this lies with keeping forum Admin as members of the community they administrate. I would be happy to expand on my thoughts on this if required, but for now I think it should speak for itself as to why, no?

Again, apologies for any insult that may have arisen as a result of this.
 
Does administering the community, which takes far more time on forum than most people spend, not make a person a member of the community?

It's amazing how so many people who have nothing, absolutely nothing, honest guv'nor, would I lie to you? against PunkD were perfectly happy to sign a petition which labelled him a security risk and majored on the likelihood of his screwing us over.

Did you people not read what you were signing or something?
 
I'd ask those that signed this petition to put themselves in my shoes. I read this petition and think 23 people (now 22) believe I'm a security risk and that I'm not a member of this community. These 23 people also want me out as an administrator despite my service to the region and apparent good service as an admin.

That is what the petition says but it's been puzzling reading people saying that certain parts are not their concern. I just want you to keep in mind that when you affix your name to something and you're making statements about a person, you're accepting responsibility for what the petition says.

What's more, when I retired the only thing I didn't retire from was being an admin.

If you're wondering why that is, it's because I really thought and wanted to be a pretty darn good admin and felt that unfettered from any time constraints from the game, I could do so. I asked the admin team if I could continue to admin if I retired. Again - I believe it's best to be up front with people and I did so with my co-team. I told them I would be active. I have been active and no one has said i've done a poor job so I believe I've been successful in this. That is part of why hearing the comments is hard because I want to do exactly what I'm being questioned about and believe I've been doing.

In other words, my objective is to maintain the community trust and to perform this job well. The petition questions the former but most have said I'm doing the latter. Where I struggle is in understanding why the two are out of alignment.
 
I have to disagree with those who want to claim that Punk D, or any of the others who are or have been admin here are not part of the community. Take a look at Punk D's join date as a member of this particular home of the TNP Community. It was the same time we moved here from Old Blue. The fact that he has chosen to remain active on these forums as an admin more than as a off-site game player in TNP does not make him any less a member of this community.
The emphasis here should be on participation in this community, and a demonstration of commitment and trustworthiness to the community more than game play. When I've discussed forum policies as an admin, I've always put it in the context of the community and not just the sub-group of those who are playing the game off-site in these forums. No one is going to earn the privilege of being an admin at these forums who isn't committed to the TNP Community. And many of our current admin have been part of that community for more than a decade now going back to when we were all at Old Blue.
This is something I'm not sure the signatories to this petition fully grasp. And they should. The obligation of the admin team and the global mods (both current and in the past) is to the community and not to any subset of that community. And it's a very important factor that shouldn't be overlooked.
 
Hello.
I want to point out something.
I do not have any evidence against Punkd.
However, I find it suspicious that a player from another region that's not allied to us having a high status as his.
I am not saying he betrayed us. I never did. But I believe that his job should be given to someone who is part of our region.
I think this would be fairer for everyone. And it would be safer, because if any leak happens in the future, Punk is going to be the one suspected immediately.
So therefore, the reason for my petition is for the security of our region and the social equality for our players.
Of course, if he is doing his job and if he is trusted by the Delegate and his government, then in my opinion let him be an administrator. That's where I stand in this point.
My signing of the petition is not mean to remove him. It's just a suggestion of my opinion on this issue.
 
As an update to those concerned that progress is made on this issue:

A PM has been sent to all those who signed this petition requesting that they present any concrete evidence they may have that PunkD has, will, or might well betray this region.
 
It represents an incredible level of missing the point in order to send that PM out. The argument is not that punk necessarily will do these things, but that the motivation could be there. Being an admin does not automatically make someone a part of the community, and having an admin team removed from the operation of the region is not beneficial for it. It is built on trust and friendship and working with them, fundamentally.

You cannot provide evidence for a possibility!
 
everything is a possibility. It is possible that one day someone on the forum will tell me to piss off and, in a fit of pique I will decide to delete the entire forum.

Now that is not going to happen, but it is a possibility. Everyone has their breaking point.

Every time we make someone an admin we take a risk. Risk that our data will be stolen, risk that the forum will be harmed. We live with that risk on the admin team, and we manage that risk. That is why we are so careful who we make admin.

The question is, can PunkD be trusted? Some here say no. But I have known him for years and years on this forum and S2, and watched him for eight months as admin. I have gone over every action he has logged as admin, and I have never had the slightest indication that he cannot be trusted.

Now I may be badly wrong in that trust, but without solid facts I have not been given any reason to change my mind.
 
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