[Complete]At Vote:Repeal "Liberate NAZI EUROPE" [Complete]

Description: WA Security Council Resolution #109: Liberate NAZI EUROPE shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: The Security Council,

Prefacing the arguments herein with a disclaimer that the ideology followed and promoted by NAZI EUROPE and its inhabitants to be one of hate and intolerance and that this proposal does not amount to approval or acceptance of said ideology,

Believing, however, that every region should hold the right to self-protection in the way of Delegate-imposed password, should the natives of the region wish it, and that Liberations used in antithesis to this statute are in contradiction with the spirit of this council,

Aware that SC#109 was passed in hopes of misusing a Liberation to open up a region to attack from outside forces,

Stating that the multitude of attempts to forcibly take over the now-vulnerable region were utter failures in every aspect of the word, and that a combination of forces from many regions were unsuccessful in capturing NAZI EUROPE, to the amusement of the natives,

Fervently condemning that SC#109 not only produced free face time for such a despicable and Condemned region, but that the subsequent attempts to attack the region only had the effect of strengthening the region and its membership,

Therefore admonishing SC#109, its purpose, and effects as only promoting the region and ideology it attempted to destroy, and in fact doing more harm than good as well as abusing the power of the Liberation,

Hereby Repeals SC#109.

The ministry must apologise to the general userbase, this one sort of snuck up on us and seems to be passing at vote already, that said, a review is still warranted none the less.

As always the Ministry always weights the repeals arguments against the strength of the original text, and what strength remains once the repeal arguments are taken into consideration.

The language used in it is clunky, and complicated for the most part, the Minister had to read some mandates twice to get the point of what they were trying to say. That said, the crux of the argument is quite valid.

Regardless of ideology or agenda, the original liberation was used contrary to the designed purposes and intent of what a liberation should be. The Ministry firmly believes that opening up a region to attack in this manner is a gross misuse of the powers of the Security Council.


Considering the argument of this proposal coupled with the agreement of the intent of the original resolution, the Ministry is happy to suggest a FOR vote in relation to this proposal.

AS ALWAYS THIS IS A SUGGESTED VOTE ONLY, PLEASE VOTE FOR, AGAINST OR ABSTAIN AS DESIRED BELOW.

For

For the same reason that I voted for it's repeal last time here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7040533/2/#new

For

Against.

I change my vote considering that Nazi Europe is reprehensible and if a majority of their native population is in favor of 'liberation', they should have a go at it.

For

EDIT: check post #13

For

For

Current Tally:

5-0-0 FOR

Against

Are you serious? I'm 100% against this. We helped pass this proposal with an extremely strong vote in favour of it last time. I'm disappointed to see us voting for it's repeal.

Strongly against.

With this change in sentiment, I'm shifting my vote to Against.

Against

mcmasterdonia:

Are you serious? I'm 100% against this. We helped pass this proposal with an extremely strong vote in favour of it last time. I'm disappointed to see us voting for it's repeal.

Click to expand...

It's been utterly ineffective and remains an idiotic and stupid resolution to have on the books, which has done approximately nil to achieve its goals.

The whole crusade against Nazis in NS is ineffective at best - and contributory to a persecution complex and perhaps persuading people to actually side with the Nazi view on the world IRL at worst. It's certainly not going to change any opinions, whereas actually having a dialogue or simply just ignoring these people is the best response.

They're either trolls - who want a response, genuine Nazis - who're best either debated down or ignored or people taking part in a RP nation - which is their choice. Giving them all this attention is not helping anything! Neither is giving them a persecution complex.

Absolutely for.

I'll point out the Nazis have been using "Liberate NAZI EUROPE" as a recruitment point for sometime now - Abbey's point is very much correct: it's expanded their population and fueled the growth of other stronger Nazi regions as well as diplomatically united them.

I would also propose it has kept NAZI EUROPE safer even -- it keeps NAZI EUROPE at high alert and prevents any possible refound by invaders. The idea that an invasion of NAZI EUROPE couldn't be done behind a password is ludicrous: professional invaders raid passworded regions all of the time -- the password often makes these regions less safe by luring them into a false sense of security and blocking "defenders" ¹ from mobilizing into the region.



_{1. In regards to NAZI EUROPE, the most likely "defenders" against an invasion are Woodhouse and his goons -- I've seen Woodhouse react to an invasion at update. He is online and vigilant.}

Against

Against

For

Current Tally:

7-7-0 Deadlocked.


Correction, two changed votes:

8-5-0 Against if me and my fall guy are counting these correctly.

Also on taking my Ministers hat off here for a second I feel it relevant to point out a few things:

• Firstly, great to see great debate alive and well, if only we could always have it to this level.
  
• Secondly, Abbey pretty much echo's my personal sentiments as well as those of the Ministry, but personally, a password is easily by passed and if anything opens the region up to the destruction it deserves. The liberation was a gross over-reach of the council and I'm saddened to hear TNP so vehemently is endorsing this practice.

Therein is my two cents. And consider them slightly less than happy.

Abbey Anumia:

mcmasterdonia:

Are you serious? I'm 100% against this. We helped pass this proposal with an extremely strong vote in favour of it last time. I'm disappointed to see us voting for it's repeal.

Click to expand...

It's been utterly ineffective and remains an idiotic and stupid resolution to have on the books, which has done approximately nil to achieve its goals.

The whole crusade against Nazis in NS is ineffective at best - and contributory to a persecution complex and perhaps persuading people to actually side with the Nazi view on the world IRL at worst. It's certainly not going to change any opinions, whereas actually having a dialogue or simply just ignoring these people is the best response.

They're either trolls - who want a response, genuine Nazis - who're best either debated down or ignored or people taking part in a RP nation - which is their choice. Giving them all this attention is not helping anything! Neither is giving them a persecution complex.

Absolutely for.

Click to expand...

The constant attempts at repealing this liberation are what is giving NE so much more publicity.

NE was out raiding and attacking innocent regions when it could be sure that it's own home was secure from the invasion of others. Did you omit this intentionally or were you unaware of it?

Simply because this invasion has not been achieved yet, it does not mean that it will not be achieved in the foreseeable future. The last time I was in the chair, we had a meeting with most of the GCRs to discuss how best to handle Nazi's in nationstates. If this proposal is repealed, I would expect the region to be passworded instantly. WA nations involved in keeping it "safe" will return to serve in the Right Wing Uprising. Job well done folks!

Captain Woodhouse, perhaps the most notorious member of Nazi Europe is a clear example of the time of nation that resides within this type of region. I will note that there is absolutely no proof at how many of them are roleplay nations or not. I cannot believe that you're suggesting having a dialogue with a Nazi is the best way to solve this problem. I'm sure that neo-Nazi's around the world are absolutely open to discussing racial tolerance and are open minded enough to consider changing their opinions on that matter.

The core purpose of a liberation is to prevent a password from being put in place. I see no reason why this type of proposal should be limited to use for defenders. The liberation achieved it's purpose, it kept the region open and exposed - while at the same time preventing active Nazi Europe members from spewing their hateful ideology onto other regions.

If I'm reading this correctly, voting "For" would be to repeal previously passed legislation that called for the liberating of this region.

I'm voting "For".

As always, if a region is too fucking incompetent to protect itself it's their fault and they should be left to their own devices. I will never understand why so many people in this game are against region crashing. It separates the weak from the strong. If you're too weak to defend what you hold dear then either move and create a new region or just quit the game. Do not whine and petition others to save you from your failure. It's called "password protection" and they're too stupid to utilize it. No sympathy from me.

Haafingar and Hjaalmarch:

If I'm reading this correctly, voting "For" would be to repeal previously passed legislation that called for the liberating of this region.

I'm voting "For".

As always, if a region is too fucking incompetent to protect itself it's their fault and they should be left to their own devices. I will never understand why so many people in this game are against region crashing. It separates the weak from the strong. If you're too weak to defend what you hold dear then either move and create a new region or just quit the game. Do not whine and petition others to save you from your failure. It's called "password protection" and they're too stupid to utilize it. No sympathy from me.

Click to expand...

This is a repeal of a 'liberation' which was actually aimed at an attack against the particular region which password-protected themselves, and its passing basically allowing Nazis that we have tried to invade before to set up passwords to bunker down again. You miss the point entirely, and even further.

unibot:

I would also propose it has kept NAZI EUROPE safer even -- it keeps NAZI EUROPE at high alert and prevents any possible refound by invaders. The idea that an invasion of NAZI EUROPE couldn't be done behind a password is ludicrous: professional invaders raid passworded regions all of the time -- the password often makes these regions less safe by luring them into a false sense of security and blocking "defenders" ¹ from mobilizing into the region.



_{1. In regards to NAZI EUROPE, the most likely "defenders" against an invasion are Woodhouse and his goons -- I've seen Woodhouse react to an invasion at update. He is online and vigilant.}

Click to expand...

The argument that the liberation resolution made NE safer is completely absurd.

Without the original liberation resolution, the region would be protected from invasion attempts without even the need for the current state of high alert and vigilance. With much less effort than they have to put in now, its members could have a region that is nearly impervious to attacks. Then, they could use the time and resources freed up from not having to secure their region to, e.g., raid or continue spreading their message.

You argue that the fact that invasions of password-protected regions have taken place in the past proves that such invasions are not impossible. Yes, this is true. It is also beside the point, hardly relevant in fact. What is relevant is that such invasions, while possible, are significantly harder than invasions against regions without password protection. The correct figure to cite here is not the existence of past invasions of password-protected regions, but how rare those are compared to invasions of regions where there is no password; also, how much more planning and effort must go into the infiltration stage necessary for such an operation to become feasible.

The above demonstrate that NE is much less secure thanks to the liberation resolution, and to claim otherwise is preposterous.

mcmasterdonia:

Abbey Anumia:

mcmasterdonia:

Are you serious? I'm 100% against this. We helped pass this proposal with an extremely strong vote in favour of it last time. I'm disappointed to see us voting for it's repeal.

Click to expand...

It's been utterly ineffective and remains an idiotic and stupid resolution to have on the books, which has done approximately nil to achieve its goals.

The whole crusade against Nazis in NS is ineffective at best - and contributory to a persecution complex and perhaps persuading people to actually side with the Nazi view on the world IRL at worst. It's certainly not going to change any opinions, whereas actually having a dialogue or simply just ignoring these people is the best response.

They're either trolls - who want a response, genuine Nazis - who're best either debated down or ignored or people taking part in a RP nation - which is their choice. Giving them all this attention is not helping anything! Neither is giving them a persecution complex.

Absolutely for.

Click to expand...

The constant attempts at repealing this liberation are what is giving NE so much more publicity.

NE was out raiding and attacking innocent regions when it could be sure that it's own home was secure from the invasion of others. Did you omit this intentionally or were you unaware of it?

Simply because this invasion has not been achieved yet, it does not mean that it will not be achieved in the foreseeable future. The last time I was in the chair, we had a meeting with most of the GCRs to discuss how best to handle Nazi's in nationstates. If this proposal is repealed, I would expect the region to be passworded instantly. WA nations involved in keeping it "safe" will return to serve in the Right Wing Uprising. Job well done folks!

Captain Woodhouse, perhaps the most notorious member of Nazi Europe is a clear example of the time of nation that resides within this type of region. I will note that there is absolutely no proof at how many of them are roleplay nations or not. I cannot believe that you're suggesting having a dialogue with a Nazi is the best way to solve this problem. I'm sure that neo-Nazi's around the world are absolutely open to discussing racial tolerance and are open minded enough to consider changing their opinions on that matter.

The core purpose of a liberation is to prevent a password from being put in place. I see no reason why this type of proposal should be limited to use for defenders. The liberation achieved it's purpose, it kept the region open and exposed - while at the same time preventing active Nazi Europe members from spewing their hateful ideology onto other regions.

Click to expand...

Whoosh, my point. Yes - it makes it harder for them to raid others and easier for them to be raided. I sense a double standard here. It's not about stopping them raiding - it's about the fact that the region is Nazi Europe and to suggest otherwise is quite frankly bullshit. Why are they suddenly worthy of a Liberation proposal in order to stop them raiding? I'd be absolutely shocked if them raiding a region enamoured any person with the Nazi point of view, so they're not "spreading their views", and quite frankly, from a RL point of view, it's just a stupid position to take - I don't want to live in a world, and I certainly don't want to play a game, where people are unable to air their views just because they subscribe to a certain ideology. Yes, outright and publicly calling for people's death and extermination is bad and always will be bad, and should be (and is) punished according to the rules and laws of the game and society. But deciding that they're nothing better than scum isn't going to change their minds either - yes, they hold an idiotic set of ideals and beliefs but they're still human, and capable of independent thought like anybody else. Especially as it may well be possible that we're dealing with people who aren't all that old. So, to answer the question you pose later on, I think the best way of dealing with them is to have a dialogue with them.

Also, yes, I understand the attempt to repeal give it publicity. I wouldn't have proposed a repeal personally for this reason - but now it's at vote it's daft to suggest that I should vote against the repeal...so that the resolution can stay on the books and continue to be attempted to be repealed.

The Liberation is being used by both defenders and raiders here - defenders in order to stop NE from raiding, and raiders in order to give themselves a region which they have an "excuse" to raid.

Against.

I did not miss your point, I just didn't agree with it. But that sets an interesting tone for your post.

Raiding a region and refounding it, or spraying the WFE with Nazi nonsense is the very definition of spreading their views and influence further. The natives that were removed from that region may be filled with a stronger anti-nazi sentiment, but it is allowing nazi's and their military power to be spread across multiple regions rather than being focused in one. The raiders involved in Right Wing Uprising specifically target certain regions to take them as trophies to the National socialist cause.

I would counter that it may well be possible that the nazis are not young people. So with that said, either of us arguing that point is pointless as there is very little guarantee that either of us are correct (or wrong).

As I said, I have seen very little evidence that it is is RP based. There was one user who admitted to roleplaying it relatively recently, though I forget his name - but he was the founder of Reich.

Defenders and raiders may be using this proposal to their own end. That isn't surprising, all liberation proposals are framed in that way.

Vote FOR if you like, as you have done so. You have the right to express your opinion as do I. Nobody is going to be punished for voting FOR. I felt strongly on this resolution and saw it necessary to give my view on it, I am not expecting you to change your vote Abbey as frankly I know you better than that, but there is nothing wrong with a healthy debate.

Voting on this resolution has ended.

Thanks to those nations who cast their votes. Your participation is a great help to the region.

This topic has been locked and sent to the Archives for safekeeping. If you would like this topic to be re-opened for further discussion, please contact the WA Delegate, a Global Moderator, or an Administrator for assistance. Thank you.

Voting on this resolution has ended.

Thanks to those nations who cast their votes. Your participation is a great help to the region.

This topic has been locked and sent to the Archives for safekeeping. If you would like this topic to be re-opened for further discussion, please contact the WA Delegate, a Global Moderator, or an Administrator for assistance. Thank you.