Court Jurisdiction Amendment Bill

I don't think this is a good idea. Flemingovia could request that each party do something absurd, if a claim were brought against a sitting Delegate he could request that they resign or enforce flemingovianism in the WFE. All that is required is the agreement of both parties that the rulings could possibly be incredibly absurd..... most of us might be aware of that side effect but potentially a new nation would not be...

I think it should be possible for us to allow Flemingovia to have his fun and grand stand on various issues without going down this path. I honestly hope that this amendment is not accepted.
 
Bear in mind that parties would still be guaranteed the protections of the bill of rights, including protection from abuse of power by governmental authorities of the region.
 
Crushing Our Enemies:
Bear in mind that parties would still be guaranteed the protections of the bill of rights, including protection from abuse of power by governmental authorities of the region.
Whoa back. Way to move the goalposts, Cochise.

Your proposal was quite clear and concise:

17. The official rulings of the Fiqh shall be legally binding upon the parties of cases brought before the Fiqh.

Now suddenly you are trying to chuck the bill of rights into the mix? your proposal was quite clear: the courts would enforce the rulings of the Fiqh. End of.

that is why you did not write...

17. The official rulings of the Fiqh shall be legally binding upon the parties of cases brought before the Fiqh, except when I prefer a ruling based on something else... er... sort of thing. You know what I mean, and if you don't the court can make shit up as it goes along.

The Fiqh's rulings are based on Flemingovianism, not the Bill of Rights. You do not take the shining beauty of Flemingovianism and shackle it to the intellectual cesspit that is the Constitution. It is like cutting the hamstrings of a prize race horse just before a race.

Please stop making stuff up on the hoof. You are making yourself look silly.

Now therefore fear the Lord Flemingovia and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the Constitution that your fathers served in the past, and serve the Lord Flemingovia. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the Constitution your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the Constitutional changes of those on IRC, in whose pocket you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord Flemingovia.

Do I hear an Amen, brothers and sisters?
 
I suggested this amendment as an amendment to the Legal Code of TNP, so naturally it would be subordinate to the constitution and bill of rights.
 
If this legislation has the intended or unintended effect of nullifying the preeminent protections and limitations provided by the Bill of Rights, the legislation should not go forward.

I also resent the attempt to impose a set of religious beliefs upon anyone who does not freely and voluntarily subscribe to them, such attempts are directly contrary to the protections given to all under the Bill of Rights.

If it weren't for the longstanding nature of the Bill of Right dating back to the earliest days of constitutional government in TNP, Flemingovianism wouldn't likely even exist.
 
No, no, no, no, no and no again! I'll elaborate more but it is patently ridiculous and against every fundamental part of how TNP should work to say that one person who isn't elected, appointed or accountable (not to mention the "religious" freedom mess) should be able to make legally binding decisions which could potentially then have to be challenged in the Courts anyway.

When I suggested that people consider using the Fiqh or something like it for arbitration should they not be able to work it out between themselves (rather than using the Courts for Civil cases) this is not what I meant!

May or may not elaborate more tomorrow.
 
Fiqh, being a staple of the Flemingovian Religion, would make even the mention of 'Fiqh' in the law unconstitutional under the grounds I stated earlier: Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State as detailed in the Constitution of TNP.

Hence, in response to the Fiqh request, I sarcastically and ironically submit the following:


Section 3.4: The Fiqh Court of The Cheese God
16. The Fiqh Court of The Cheese God shall have the legal authority to arbitrate disputes between citizens of The North Pacific.
17. The official rulings of the Fiqh Court of The Cheese God shall be legally binding upon the parties of cases brought before the Fiqh Court of The Cheese God.
18. The official rulings of the Fiqh Court of The Cheese God shall not be binding on any government body, nor shall they compel any government official to exercise the powers of their office in execution of the ruling.


REJECT THE FIQH! ACCEPT THE CHEESE!

0l7s.jpg
 
thus we see displayed the godless atheist agenda of the aggressive militant secularists who are happy to see a godless, humanist court but wish to extinguish all spiritual life from our great region.

The end result of this will be men lying with dogs in the street as if they were women, and women encouraged to fornicate with copies of the Bill of Rights. Eventually not a beast in the fields will be safe.

The Fiqh is based in Flemingovianism, and it makes its rulings on that basis. You can pick that glorious path, or you can choose to wallow in the mire that is the bill of Rights, and hope that you get a better looking sheep. But you cannot have both.
 
Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State as detailed in the Constitution of TNP.

Actually, I cannot see separation of church and state in the Bill of Wrongs or the Constitution.

I think the only relevant section is this:

2. Each Nation's rights to free speech, free press, and the free expression of religion shall not be infringed, and shall be encouraged, by the governmental authorities of the region.

Which simply says nations have the right to free expression. It says nothing about, say, a state religion.

I understand, in real life, how colonials tend to interpret things, but here is her glorious Britannic majesty's kingdom we manage to have a state church and at the same time freedom of belief and expression. The two are not mutually exclusive.

We could adopt Flemingovianism as the state religion without breaking the Bill of Rights, so long as nobody was forced to convert.
 
that is, I think, in the first instance up to the person who made the original proposal. He can decide to put the suggested amendment into his bill.

If he will not, then I think the amendment can still be adopted. I will need to look that up.
 
Everyone had better lock of their women, dogs and farm animals, the godless-atheist-aggressive-militant-secularists are on the loose! :P
 
I think in the long run, given that there is no law in place governing any form of civil claim other than recognizing in the Constitution that such exist, the best route is to authorize a generic form of mutually agreed binding arbitration, and only giving the court power to enforce such when both parties agreed to binding arbitration.

I dealt with civil cases as Chief Justice under earlier constitutions, and while Court rules adopted in that period tried to structure a system for civil claims, it was never tested. And unless there is a statutory code of what can be brought as a civil claim, it won't work. Binding mediation however may work with a lot less problems.
 
And who would appoint the arbitrators whose decisions would be enforced by the courts? At least our justices are elected and accountable to voters.

I prefer, personally, to have civil cases come before the courts we have, where the justices have some sort of standing.

The alternative is to have a perfect and omniscient god to take on the role. Either way works for me.
 
Well, civil trial procedure is up to the court. There's no reason we couldn't simply define civil trial rules to be a form of arbitration.

EDIT: That is, if this bill fails and civil trials remain part of the court system.
 
Who will serve as mediators/arbitators should be the least of the issues to be resolved. There can be a panel, maybe a panel that can also contribute THOs for the Court of people willing to serve when asked and chosen by the parties, or by the court.

I won't go along with a theocratic court in any form, thank you very much.
 
At the moment, those overseeing civil cases are justices who are elected and accountable. any system of unelected arbitrators, of any kind, whose decisions are nonetheless enforced by our courts, bring a real risk that it would descend into a kangaroo court at some point.

the more I read this the more I think that we are better off staying with the system we have, that the rare civil cases that come up are dealt with within our accountable justice system.
 
I might try and reply seriously to this thread when I've finished laughing. Possibly.

Y'know, I wish that I could have introduced this to the World Fair - maybe then we could have showcased the unique headcase that is TNP's Regional Assembly.

*goes off to laugh some more*
 
Again, the handling of Civil issues is under the purvey of the Court in general under the Constitution. To go about and create a whole separate court system to handle civil issues is just adding another layer bureaucracy and obfuscation to an already overly bureaucratic and obfuscatory system.

Put simply, in a Civil case, all we need to do is to add this simple set of items to Court Rules:

1.) Civil cases will be heard by the Court with a single Justice presiding; Litigants shall have the option of having Civil cases commuted to Binding Arbitration through a party mutually agreed upon by the litigants.

That simple. What could be more fair than giving the litigants the option of choosing their own mutually agreed upon judge?
 
Even with the Bill of Rights over the top of the Fiqh, we would end up in a situation where people would need to take their civil matter to the court for review. I would much rather keep the Fiqh as a fun part of the community and allow Flem to have a bit of fun and bring us laughs with it.

Including it as a legally recognised separate court is simply going to create more headaches.
 
Yus.

Simply put:

1. Without enforceable penalties, civil arbitration is a waste of time, or just for fun.
2. With enforceable penalties it needs to be dispensed by accountable officials, or it could quickly become a kangaroo court.
3. In order to do this, we either set up or adopt a new entitiy, or we leave things with the court.

I think we are better off leaving things with the court. And I move to table this motion indefinitely.
 
And now the meaning of tabling will no doubt be debated.

In any case, the amendment has not been accepted by the author of the proposal and I doubt that it will be.
 
I perhaps should have been clearer. My motion was to table the original motion, not any amendments. I think the flaws have been adequately demonstrated.

Oh, and I was using "table" in the American sense of the word: "postpone consideration of."
 
Wait...okay, let me try to understand what's going on here. First, is there a motion to table due to a disagreement over one (not all) of the elements of the bill?

The rest of the bill is aimed at /curbing/ the power of the Court that sometimes seems so hated in this region - it certainly isn't trusted to do anything "right" if their decisions aren't what is politically convenient. I'd have thought that a slight curbing on the Court being the go-to place to resolve all regional disputes about everything would have been appreciated.

I don't see why there is any need for there to be a Court or officially sanctioned method of doing anything - having a trial that cannot have any consequences is stupid, but having people work things out between them is always not going to have consequences and that's kinda the point. We should surely be able to talk things out between ourselves?
 
In the absence of Cormac, I have to remind you there is no basis in law or RA procedure for a motion to table.

To terminate the discussion the proponent has to withdraw it.

If you want to terminate it against his will then you have to do it at schedule stage (i.e. when a vote has been scheduled and the vote has not yet begun)
RA procedure: Proposals:
3. If, before a vote on a proposal begins, at least three members of the Regional Assembly object to the decision of the Speaker to schedule it, the Speaker must cancel the scheduled vote.
 
Chasmanthe:
In the absence of Cormac, I have to remind you there is no basis in law or RA procedure for a motion to table.

To terminate the discussion the proponent has to withdraw it.

If you want to terminate it against his will then you have to do it at schedule stage (i.e. when a vote has been scheduled and the vote has not yet begun)
RA procedure: Proposals:
3. If, before a vote on a proposal begins, at least three members of the Regional Assembly object to the decision of the Speaker to schedule it, the Speaker must cancel the scheduled vote.
My apology, Mr Speaker, if I am not allowed to motion to table, I am not allowed.

in that case I move to vote.
 
I note with regard to motions to table: as has been helpfully pointed out by Chasmanthe, neither the RA Rules or the Standing Orders allow for motions to table, the closest they come to that is objecting once a vote has been scheduled, therefore a motion to table, as has been made, cannot be accepted.

My apology, Mr Speaker, if I am not allowed to motion to table, I am not allowed.

in that case I move to vote.

With regard to this motion to vote, motions to vote may only be made by the individual that brings the proposal before the Assembly and therefore this motion, also, cannot be accepted.
 
Abbey Anumia:
The rest of the bill is aimed at /curbing/ the power of the Court that sometimes seems so hated in this region - it certainly isn't trusted to do anything "right" if their decisions aren't what is politically convenient. I'd have thought that a slight curbing on the Court being the go-to place to resolve all regional disputes about everything would have been appreciated.
That makes it sound as if this piece of legislation is motivated be a vindictive desire to curb the power of the court.

Our courts have not always worked as well as they ought, but it is far better than some of the alternatives we have had in TNP in the past.
 
With regard to this motion to vote, motions to vote may only be made by the individual that brings the proposal before the Assembly and therefore this motion, also, cannot be accepted.

Then can I humbly and respectfully implore the Speaker to schedule a vote at his earliest convenience?
 
Zyvetskistaahn:
I cannot schedule a vote as no motion to vote has been made by the bill's sponsor.
I think you are wrong on this. All the law says is:

2. The Speaker may schedule a vote on any proposal being discussed by the Regional Assembly as permitted by law.

It does not say that you have to have the bill sponsor's go ahead.
 
The law, with regard to this matter, is the Standing Orders with relation to Legislative Proposals, which specify that such a proposal may be moved to vote by the person proposing it and by specifying that person excludes others from doing so, I note that while it is not beyond my power to amend the Standing Orders so as to allow any member to move any proposal to vote, including myself, I shall not do so for the sake of this one bill and without significant change in the law to necessitate such a change.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
"...And unless there is a statutory code of what can be brought as a civil claim, it won't work...
But there's a solution to that problems, and we don't need statutory law - and that's the beauty of the principle of the Common Law system. The actual court rulings produce the precedent which, in essence forms the basis of statute whether or not it is written or not. Great Britain and virtually every English speaking nation in the world operates on this legal principle (Common Law/Anglo Saxon Positive Law) which has developed over the past 1500+ years and continues to develop.

For instance, while there is in North Carolina, various statutes that raise certain civil issues like slander and libel to the position of a criminal offense, those particular cases which are not criminal and do not exist, per se, in a Civil Code, are nonetheless, despite no legal code pertaining to civil slander/libel, such conflicts can be and are adjudicated in Civil Courts provided that the offended party has suffered some kind of damage as a result.

As an example, there is nothing in the Statues of North Carolina that particularly lists anything concerning civil disputes (civil offenses being statutes in which the state/people are the victims, i.e.: disorderly conduct, etc.,,,). All that someone has to do is to prove that they have been damaged due to someone's actions which were accomplished with malice of forethought or negligence or under the Common Law Principles of Strict liability.

For instance, there is nothing illegal about shooting a dog in any legal codes anywhere. There is no statute that specifically prohibits that specific act. But, if you go onto someone else's property and shoot their dog you have inflicted pecuniary damages upon the owner of the dog despite there is no law about shooting a dog. Hence, the damages are real in terms of loss to the owner of the dog and said owner can recover.

But in TNP, we have no means, lacking a medium of economic exchange, or even an economy, damages can still be inflicted by one person upon another, and, like Criminal offenses in TNP, a penalty can be levied in an as effective way for Civil complaints as for Criminal complaints. All we do is to simply use the term 'damages'.

The big problem here is that the Criminal Code of TNP uses a lot of pseudo-legalize mixed metaphors in terms of legal 'definitions' that under most instances, the laws we have are almost self-defeating in terms of the logic in constructing those laws.

For example, one can literally get away with anything that falls short of a forum TOS violation when it comes to saying crap about other people because slander and libel (a civil dispute between two individuals) is not covered under the Criminal Codes. Nevertheless, a 'Civil' conflict would be afoot in such an instance and real damages to one person's or another's reputation has indeed occurred.

The question is, how do you get equity in a Civil matter between two people? Very easily.

If someone does something particularly excremental and nasty to someone else and is found liable for their transgression, it can be punished in like-wise fashion. Either a required 'forfeit' (such as reduced posting privileges on the forum or the wearing of a 'badge' depicting a jackass in the offender's signature, etc.,,,) imposed by the court that the liable party must adhere to, and if they don't it becomes a criminal offense (which essentially would be expressing a total disregard for the law and contempt for the Court) and punished as such.

Point being, we have a legal system in TNP which is all or nothing, criminal or nothing. And this results in penalties that are extreme rather than suitable for various transgressions and tend to drive people away. This is why we need an element of Common Law in civil conflicts.
 
Even in those real life jurisdictions (in the US) that adopted the common law as the law of decision for their state courts, they had to adopt a statute to do so.

Here is an example of the adoption of common law principles by a state of the United States:
Florida Statutes §2.01, which provides:
The common and statute laws of England which are of a general and not a local nature, with the exception hereinafter mentioned, down to the fourth day of July, 1776, are declared to be of force in this state; provided, the said statutes and common law be not inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States and the acts of the [l]egislature of this state.

The region of The North Pacific has a history of trying to follow common law principles although, of necessity, it has to use a civil code approach since we have no history of common law jurisprudence that can be adopted. This includes any non-criminal claim since the Regional Assembly would have to adopt a substantive code on available civil claims that the Court can use to adopt rules to try.

As it stands at the moment, any civil case should fail because there is no source of law that TNP Court can enforce as the substantive cause of action brought by one party as a civil case against any other party. And any attempt to define something as a civil claim after the fact would run into problems in the Bill of Rights as to no ex post facto law or bill of attainder.

Until that brain work has been done so people know beforehand what can trigger a civil case and what liability might attach, it is inherently impossible for a civil case to be successful. Otherwise stated, there's no there there for a court to have a civil case on. Even the use of mediation/arbitration is still going to have to require some statement of what sort of claims can be brought and what liability can be attached to the losing side by the arbitrator/mediator.
 
If what Grosse says is true, that is very good news for anyone subject to a civil indictment at the moment.

Almost tailor made.

Good job there is nobody at the moment that this ... could ... apply .... to .... hang on .... wait a moment.....
 
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