Official Constitutional/Legal Code Convention Thread

Funkadelia

Funkadelia

TNPer
TNP Nation
Funkadelia Island
This is the thread having to do with the total reform of the government. So far, ideas have been tossed around that involve making the government less democratic in that it is not a direct democracy, but elected legislators who are forced to be responsive and honest with the other citizens who have avenues of making sure the legislators are. Otherwise there are no 100% solid ideas yet, but at this point the convention can just be a collective brainstorming of blueprint ideas that we can work off of. With the collaboration of everyone, I'd like to get something through that makes TNP's government efficient.
 
Great Bights Mum:
How about a military junta? That would be a different thing for us to try.
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You are great GBM.

I'm pretty sure I was accused of setting such a plan in motion during one of the cabinet meetings in Delegate Eluvatar's term. Of course it was actually Blue Wolf II's fault and I was simply the puppet. :lol:
 
It doesn't really matter to me what sort of a baseline people want, just as long as most people want it. This is probably the slower part, coming up with general ideas to set the game plan. However when we get into actually constructing a new Constitution etc. it will be less boring. Really though, I encourage you to toss out any other ideas you may have.

GBM, a military junta could work actually if other people wanted it.

What do you think of the idea I stated in the OP?
 
When you say "elected legislators," who is the electorate?

Election to the legislature implies there will be winners and losers. Losers will have to sit out and not be a part of the legislature. Right now, anyone who wants to be active in the RA can be. How is a representative democracy better?
 
Great Bights Mum:
When you say "elected legislators," who is the electorate?

Election to the legislature implies there will be winners and losers. Losers will have to sit out and not be a part of the legislature. Right now, anyone who wants to be active in the RA can be. How is a representative democracy better?
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I can see the concern there, certainly. The electorate are the citizens. People who have a nation in TNP who have registered to be citizens. The losers may have to sit out, yes, but there will be avenues to ensure responsiveness that we can add. I believe the problem with the free for all that we have now is that many things do not get addressed, unless they are real hot issues. When kneejerk legislation is passed due to these hot issues, it usually causes what we see now in TNP. A big mess of laws that makes things slower, less efficient, and confusing. Hopefully with an elected legislation, heads will be a little cooler.
 
One option might be to have a system in which anyone can submit a bill and then the elected "legislators" (and possibly the author) discuss, amend, and vote on the bill.

What I think often happens in direct democracies like we currently have with a relatively large number of members is that there are always enough people arguing against something for the majority to think the idea is unpopular and give up on it. My general experience in 6 years of NationStates across various regions is that a small group of people tasked with legislation is far more productive than a large group in free-for-all mode.
 
I'd like to try a purely representative system...whereby in order to vote within the legislature you'd need to have the support of a group of ingame nations. Perhaps a number like 10 of which 5 need to be WA nations...that would be neat.
 
punk d:
I'd like to try a purely representative system...whereby in order to vote within the legislature you'd need to have the support of a group of ingame nations. Perhaps a number like 10 of which 5 need to be WA nations...that would be neat.
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That would actually be a really cool idea, however it would be very very difficult to communicate between forums and the game.
 
As a variant that avoids the in-game/forum cross-over issue, we could have regular (monthly) "elections" in which anyone who is interested puts their name forward and members can "vote" for as many candidates as they wish, with anyone getting more than a threshold (10?) number of votes being included in the legislature for that month.

I'm not advocating that at this stage, just brainstorming, but I think it might work and be an interesting approach that I haven't seen tried before.
 
Wot 'bout an anarcho-syndicalist commune? We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs--but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more... oh, nevermind.
 
Malashaan:
One option might be to have a system in which anyone can submit a bill and then the elected "legislators" (and possibly the author) discuss, amend, and vote on the bill.
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I'd like to note, this structure is killing Osiris right now. There is no opportunity for new members to jump right in, and there is zero point to citizen drafting of bills when the tiny legislature can ignore them, or vote them down. What ends up happening is the region goes almost entirely inactive.
 
SillyString:
Malashaan:
One option might be to have a system in which anyone can submit a bill and then the elected "legislators" (and possibly the author) discuss, amend, and vote on the bill.
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I'd like to note, this structure is killing Osiris right now. There is no opportunity for new members to jump right in, and there is zero point to citizen drafting of bills when the tiny legislature can ignore them, or vote them down. What ends up happening is the region goes almost entirely inactive.
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Thank you for the input. Perhaps it is not the best idea.
 
@Silly String - yeah I've been a citizen of Osiris for months...and have done just about nothing as there seems no point to anything.

We could also try a bicameral approach. I think TNP has enough people to actually try something like that.
 
@Silly String: Plenty of highly successful regions have or have had a small, all elected legislative body as well. I'm not saying it's what is right for TNP, but it does work, as long as there are things for newer members to do besides legislate.

It's also worth considering that, based on the discrepancy between the number of members online at any given time here and the number who make regular contributions to the RA, maybe legislating isn't something that is of interest to a lot of members, new or old alike.

@punk d - a bi-cameral approach could work here I think, maybe a small (3-5) memb elected "review" chamber and a "drafting" chamber made up of anyone other than the review chamber members who wishes to join?
 
IndieGirl:
Wot 'bout an anarcho-syndicalist commune? We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs--but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more... oh, nevermind.
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Lol I like it xD
 
punk d:
@Silly String - yeah I've been a citizen of Osiris for months...and have done just about nothing as there seems no point to anything.

We could also try a bicameral approach. I think TNP has enough people to actually try something like that.
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That could work out quite well. Have the essential makeup of say the United States government, but adapt the rules, processes, and bylaws to be suitable for NS. I could see some epic disagreements between the two houses that could make for just plain interesting stuff. This, perhaps we could work off of.
 
Oh... But... Why not an unelected second House of limited power, so it can't outright defeat the elected House, presuming an elected legislature is desired, in which membership is appointed by the delegate, but with approval by the other House and the ability of the other House to remove its members.
 
punk d:
@Silly String - yeah I've been a citizen of Osiris for months...and have done just about nothing as there seems no point to anything.

We could also try a bicameral approach. I think TNP has enough people to actually try something like that.
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In order for something like that to work, you would have to have each house of the legislature perform a slightly different function which would essentially boil down to one house or the other being an advise-and-consent house.

It would probably result in an overly-complicated mess, but you could limit membership in the upper house to those nations with a minimum level of influence and/or population. But again, it might overly complicate things. The is TNP we are talking about running, not a massive bureaucratic clusterf*ck. Oh, wait, never mind. :P
 
Romanoffia:
In order for something like that to work, you would have to have each house of the legislature perform a slightly different function which would essentially boil down to one house or the other being an advise-and-consent house.

It would probably result in an overly-complicated mess, but you could limit membership in the upper house to those nations with a minimum level of influence and/or population. But again, it might overly complicate things. The is TNP we are talking about running, not a massive bureaucratic clusterf*ck. Oh, wait, never mind. :P
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I can also see that. I don't want a bureaucratic mess but a bicameral legislation would be quite interesting.
 
I think every former cabinet member should get together, organize a false flag operation in which GBM coups, and then surrender the entire region to TBH. Boom! All your equal representation qualms are gone, if because no one is represented by anyone. No imbalance of power!
 
Malashaan:
@Silly String: Plenty of highly successful regions have or have had a small, all elected legislative body as well. I'm not saying it's what is right for TNP, but it does work, as long as there are things for newer members to do besides legislate.

It's also worth considering that, based on the discrepancy between the number of members online at any given time here and the number who make regular contributions to the RA, maybe legislating isn't something that is of interest to a lot of members, new or old alike.
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From what I've seen it works effectively in UCR regions. I am yet to see it work effectively in a GCR, most that I have been involved in that had that system abandoned it for the reasons that SillyString has said. It doesn't work. It's an instant way for people to get involved in.

Without the RA new members would be limited to spam and voting on WA resolutions?

The point you raise about legislating not being everyones interest is probably true. That is why some people raise proposals and others do not. But I think it's very important that we have people involved in the process even if they are simply voting on the proposals - if not writing them. I won't support any changes to make the legislature elected, I just don't think it's right for TNP.
 
Iro:
I think every former cabinet member should get together, organize a false flag operation in which GBM coups, and then surrender the entire region to TBH. Boom! All your equal representation qualms are gone, if because no one is represented by anyone. No imbalance of power!
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If you're going to say something silly like that, I'm going to ask that you refrain from posting.

@Mcmaster That's fine, I'm certainly fine with a joinable RA as well.
 
Streamlining always leads to hurt feelings. Ask Hersfold or read my signature if you disagree.

The whole purpose of the bureaucracy is to give people that are not exactly excited about the prospects of answering in-game issues as the sole means of governance in Nation States something to do. If you make the government easy and smooth then people either 1. get bored and leave or 2. form little annoying resistance groups so that they can talk about rebuilding the bureaucracy (ask Flemingovia about this if you need a reference point).

While I do not necessarily agree with the current trend of trying to make every avenue within TNP governance a mirror image of real-world political operation, I do see the value, from a gameplay point of view, in having somewhat longish steps in the process.

I believe the general dissatisfaction that has been expressed by some stems more from individuals failing/overreaching/nitpicking/etc. in their specific roles more than the actual apparatus itself.

Perhaps a convention isn't necessary. Perhaps more conscientious voting is the solution here.
 
Gracius Maximus:
Streamlining always leads to hurt feelings. Ask Hersfold or read my signature if you disagree.

The whole purpose of the bureaucracy is to give people that are not exactly excited about the prospects of answering in-game issues as the sole means of governance in Nation States something to do. If you make the government easy and smooth then people either 1. get bored and leave or 2. form little annoying resistance groups so that they can talk about rebuilding the bureaucracy (ask Flemingovia about this if you need a reference point).

While I do not necessarily agree with the current trend of trying to make every avenue within TNP governance a mirror image of real-world political operation, I do see the value, from a gameplay point of view, in having somewhat longish steps in the process.

I believe the general dissatisfaction that has been expressed by some stems more from individuals failing/overreaching/nitpicking/etc. in their specific roles more than the actual apparatus itself.

Perhaps a convention isn't necessary. Perhaps more conscientious voting is the solution here.
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Brilliantly stated point of vie, GM. In all honesty, I would have to agree with it and your analysis of the underlying causes and attitudes.
 
mcmasterdonia:
Malashaan:
@Silly String: Plenty of highly successful regions have or have had a small, all elected legislative body as well. I'm not saying it's what is right for TNP, but it does work, as long as there are things for newer members to do besides legislate.

It's also worth considering that, based on the discrepancy between the number of members online at any given time here and the number who make regular contributions to the RA, maybe legislating isn't something that is of interest to a lot of members, new or old alike.
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From what I've seen it works effectively in UCR regions. I am yet to see it work effectively in a GCR, most that I have been involved in that had that system abandoned it for the reasons that SillyString has said. It doesn't work. It's an instant way for people to get involved in.

Without the RA new members would be limited to spam and voting on WA resolutions?

The point you raise about legislating not being everyones interest is probably true. That is why some people raise proposals and others do not. But I think it's very important that we have people involved in the process even if they are simply voting on the proposals - if not writing them. I won't support any changes to make the legislature elected, I just don't think it's right for TNP.
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Romanoffia:
Gracius Maximus:
Streamlining always leads to hurt feelings. Ask Hersfold or read my signature if you disagree.

The whole purpose of the bureaucracy is to give people that are not exactly excited about the prospects of answering in-game issues as the sole means of governance in Nation States something to do. If you make the government easy and smooth then people either 1. get bored and leave or 2. form little annoying resistance groups so that they can talk about rebuilding the bureaucracy (ask Flemingovia about this if you need a reference point).

While I do not necessarily agree with the current trend of trying to make every avenue within TNP governance a mirror image of real-world political operation, I do see the value, from a gameplay point of view, in having somewhat longish steps in the process.

I believe the general dissatisfaction that has been expressed by some stems more from individuals failing/overreaching/nitpicking/etc. in their specific roles more than the actual apparatus itself.

Perhaps a convention isn't necessary. Perhaps more conscientious voting is the solution here.
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Brilliantly stated point of vie, GM. In all honesty, I would have to agree with it and your analysis of the underlying causes and attitudes.
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:agree:

I wrote a post as well, but to help speed up the convention I snipped it. :)
 
There are a lot of great ideas that have been bandied about on this thread. McM raises some good points about the RA and newer nations. If we were to take any real-life legislature, there are always some legislators that really love the law and are excellent at details and writing legislation, while some are more content to look at the big picture and use their vote as leverage. To tell the truth, I'm still getting my "sea legs" here so I think proposing legislation would be premature.
 
Not quite sure what makes this "official". But anyway...

I have a great idea. why don't we try a Theocracy? that has never before been tried in Nationstates feeders, leads to huge roleplay possibilities, removes bureaucracy, gives a workable form of government, and is a lot of fun. I see no downside.

The arguments against it?

"It hasn't been tried before, and trying something different it BAD."
"the constaytooshun won't let us. And we must obey the constaytooshun."

I am pretty sure there is a draft theocratic constitution lying around somewhere we can make use of....
 
Romanoffia:
The problem with a theocracy that God, being omnipotent, tend not to work well with others in groups. :P
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Your post shows that you misunderstand the nature of God. Although God is, by nature, transcendent and therefore unapproachable, God is also by nature inclined to seek the well being and fulfilment of mortals. Or at least ... the God of TNP is.

Therefore Flemingovia works excellently in groups, since he sees that by working together his worshippers are fulfilled, happy and reach their potential.
 
flemingovia:
Romanoffia:
The problem with a theocracy that God, being omnipotent, tend not to work well with others in groups. :P
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Your post shows that you misunderstand the nature of God. Although God is, by nature, transcendent and therefore unapproachable, God is also by nature inclined to seek the well being and fulfilment of mortals. Or at least ... the God of TNP is.

Therefore Flemingovia works excellently in groups, since he sees that by working together his worshippers are fulfilled, happy and reach their potential.
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You are assuming that God is 'personal' (in the form of a 'person') and not some indifferent, natural entity or other anthropomorphic personification of natural forces collectively.

Last time I spoke to God all I got was a cosmic "out to lunch" sign and an answering machine message that said, "you have reached a number that has either changed or been disconnected. We apologize inconvenience. Good night, you're on your own."
 
Romanoffia:
flemingovia:
Romanoffia:
The problem with a theocracy that God, being omnipotent, tend not to work well with others in groups. :P
Click to expand...
Your post shows that you misunderstand the nature of God. Although God is, by nature, transcendent and therefore unapproachable, God is also by nature inclined to seek the well being and fulfilment of mortals. Or at least ... the God of TNP is.

Therefore Flemingovia works excellently in groups, since he sees that by working together his worshippers are fulfilled, happy and reach their potential.
Click to expand...
You are assuming that God is 'personal' (in the form of a 'person') and not some indifferent, natural entity or other anthropomorphic personification of natural forces collectively.

Last time I spoke to God all I got was a cosmic "out to lunch" sign and an answering machine message that said, "you have reached a number that has either changed or been disconnected. We apologize inconvenience. Good night, you're on your own."
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Roman ... I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you pray to cheese. I am not surprised you get a limited response.
 
flemingovia:
Romanoffia:
flemingovia:
Romanoffia:
The problem with a theocracy that God, being omnipotent, tend not to work well with others in groups. :P
Click to expand...
Your post shows that you misunderstand the nature of God. Although God is, by nature, transcendent and therefore unapproachable, God is also by nature inclined to seek the well being and fulfilment of mortals. Or at least ... the God of TNP is.

Therefore Flemingovia works excellently in groups, since he sees that by working together his worshippers are fulfilled, happy and reach their potential.
Click to expand...
You are assuming that God is 'personal' (in the form of a 'person') and not some indifferent, natural entity or other anthropomorphic personification of natural forces collectively.

Last time I spoke to God all I got was a cosmic "out to lunch" sign and an answering machine message that said, "you have reached a number that has either changed or been disconnected. We apologize inconvenience. Good night, you're on your own."
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Roman ... I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you pray to cheese. I am not surprised you get a limited response.
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I don't pray to cheese. I eat cheese in the ultimate expression of transubstantiation and 'at-one-ment' with one's deity.

I eat cheese and therefore become one with the Cheese God. Cheese itself, is just a part of the Cheese God's distributive nature.

That said, Governments dispense cheese and therefore Cheese is the God of Governments. Just ask anyone running for office!

ALL HAIL THE CHEESE GOD! ALL HAIL THE OMNIODORIFEROUS EMANATIONS OF THE CHEESE GOD! :P
 
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