Motion to recall AJ Gaspo

Govindia

Govindia

TNPer
Mr. Speaker I hereby introduce a motion to recall Associate Justice Gaspo.

He has taken part in the recent coup against our ally, Osiris, helping to remove a legitimately elected government.

This is uncalled for and inappropriate, and it makes us look bad to our allies that a member of our regional courts, who is sworn to uphold all the laws and treaties of our region, took part in such an act, even if he was just "following orders".
 
As much as I may like to spout off in IRC, there is absolutely no evidence that Gaspo participated in the coup of Osiris. The fact that he endorsed Neo Kervoskia is certainly not evidence because the Kai Repat (Vice Delegate) of Osiris had approved the switching of endorsements to Neo Kervoskia believing that he was not behind a coup attempt, and people were told in the Osiris IRC to switch their endorsements.

Moreover, the actual individuals who organized and led the coup have not even been charged with a crime in Osiris let alone convicted. It would be inappropriate in the extreme for us to recall an Associate Justice for participating in a coup with no actual evidence that he participated and when the actual coup leaders have not yet even been charged. There may have been nations of The North Pacific involved in the coup and there may be an appropriate time for investigations and inquiries, but this is not that time and the witch hunt method is not the correct way to go about it.
 
Speaker Hat:

I will give this 72 hours for debate and to see if it finds a second. I do not think recall motions should be left hanging about, and 72 hours should be long enough for some clarity to be shed on this matter.

Should I think more time for debate is needed, I will extend the timeframe.

Should I think less time is needed, I shall bend this resolution around a black hole, close to the event horizon, until the motion ends up having been opened on November 16th, long before the coup in Osiris took place. Let's see the courts sort THAT one out.

You can do that sort of thing when you are god.
 
this seems really knee-jerk. It seems that there are more prominent members of this coup, if Gaspo was even a member, that we could attempt to vilify.

*yawn* ...i'm going back to bed.
 
My only comment on this matter is that I was in no way a part of this coup, and will document if necessary the orders from my government in Osiris, which I followed to the letter.
 
I second and motion for an immediate vote, despite the Speaker's want for a 72 hour discussion.

Let's not drag this farce out longer than necessary.
 
Gaspo:
My only comment on this matter is that I was in no way a part of this coup, and will document if necessary the orders from my government in Osiris, which I followed to the letter.
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Not from what I heard from others. You took part in the coup along with Neenee, Dalimbar, New Kervoskia, Biyah, Nevadar, members of Gatesville and the AC.
 
While there is not significant enough proof to take Gaspo to court, there are many suggestions that lead me to believe he was involved - namely the fact that his Osirisian nation endorsed NK, unendorsed him when confronted and then at the last moment reendorsed him before resigning WA after NK was in the delegates seat. Therefore I third or fourth or whatever stage we're at this recall.
 
I would note that the NPA and UDL also endorsed NK, and that the exact chain of events you describe as "suspicious" directly mirrors the orders given by Osiran leadership to the militaries of Osiris, TNP, and the UDL. So yes, if you wish to recall me for doing precisely as I was told as a citizen of Osiris, by all means go ahead. Just make sure you recall or indict every other UDL or NPA member, for following the exact same orders.
 
Blue Wolf II:
To vote!
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LAst time I looked, I was still speaker.

Blue Wolf, when you are speaker you can set the timetable of the assembly. Until then, I think that is my job?

I am accepting neither motions to table nor motions to vote. If you dislike that, then you of all people ought to know how a recall works.

But before this goes to vote, I think we will need more evidence than "that's what some bloke told me."
 
From what McM told me yesterday the NPA only endorsed Madjack. I'd like to have some proof that Gaspo was part of this coup. I'd agree with a recall if he was, but I think we need something more than what we have presently. I won't support this recall motion as it stands and would encourage my fellow RA members that should this come to vote with this limited 'evidence' they should also not support it when it comes to a vote.
 
Gaspo:
I would note that the NPA and UDL also endorsed NK, and that the exact chain of events you describe as "suspicious" directly mirrors the orders given by Osiran leadership to the militaries of Osiris, TNP, and the UDL. So yes, if you wish to recall me for doing precisely as I was told as a citizen of Osiris, by all means go ahead. Just make sure you recall or indict every other UDL or NPA member, for following the exact same orders.
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The NPA only endorsed madjack in Osiris.
 
While there is strong circumstantial evidence here that Gaspo was involved, it is just that: circumstantial.

The most damning circumstantial evidence is that Gaspo resigned WA on his nation shortly after Neo Kervoskia seized the delegacy. He did not stick around to endorse Mad Jack as he returned.

The question is, should we recall on the preponderance of the evidence or beyond a reasonable doubt?
 
I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to recall Gaspo if Osiris takes no action toward him as a citizen of Osiris, no.
 
I resigned my UN because I needed it available for another project. Madjack had more than enough UNs to regain the delegacy, and NK had made his intention to leave quite clear. I had no reason to put my UN there. You'll notice, if you consider all the circumstantial evidence, not just the stuff that's convenient to recalling me, that I unendorsed NK as soon as the order to do so was given earlier in the day, and had been endorsing madjack since that nation joined the UN. I only removed my endo of madjack when ordered, legally, by the government of Osiris. And Madjack wasn't even in the region, to endorse, at the time I resigned. Operating on the (reasonable, at the time) assumption that he would move on time, my presence should not have been necessary. Please show me the logic whereby failure to do something which I was under no legal duty to do, and which was mechanically impossible, constitutes evidence of guilt. Please, show me.

As far as the NPA endorsing only madjack, that's fine, I may be mistaken. I am positive that the UDL did endorse NK, and that the legally elected and legally acting government of Osiris ordered all Osiran citizens, and everyone present in #osiris at the time of the incident, to endorse NK. I did that. Then NK couped, made his intentions clear, and madjack was unbanned. I did not have a UN in the region at the time madjack was there; failure to do something I mechanically incapable of doing falls far short of establishing a reasonable suspicion of guilt, or even a preponderence. Madjack wasn't in the region. I didn't want my WA there anymore, and I was under no orders at that point to endorse anyone else (that I was aware of). I dropped my WA, removing my endorsement of NK.

To tl;dr all of that: I followed orders I was given as an Osiran citizen. Then I dropped my WA. I was under, and remain under, no legal requirement either here or there to retain a WA nation, nor to keep it there, as at that time (as far as I am aware) no surrogate had been selected, and neither madjack nor quad were in the region. So again, if you want to take the broadly circumstantial evidence of me resigning my WA when I had noone I was ordered to endorse, as evidence of my complicity with this conspiracy, well, go right ahead. The "evidence" laid before me would get laughed out of court if you tried to file an indictment on that basis; why should a recall be any different?
 
I really wouldn't be comfortable moving ahead with a recall until Osiris has had an opportunity to investigate the matter fully and, following from that, completed any judicial action.
 
Eluvatar:
I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to recall Gaspo if Osiris takes no action toward him as a citizen of Osiris, no.
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You're the prosecutor there, Elu. Initiating legal action against in Osiris is your decision. You left out that minor detail.

GBM, madjack has indicated (last I heard) that he intends to release a statement tomorrow. So you'll have his perspective at that time, as far as I know.
 
One final note: for those of you who can see it (not sure if everyone can), Quad, the vice-delegate equivalent (silly Osiris titles) has posted a statement HERE. I have reproduced one key sentence below:
For any charges of treason, those charges lie strictly in the hands of Biyah, New Kervoskia, and Dalimbar.
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I would not that my name is omitted from that list, whose wording indicates a completely inclusive list of those responsible.
 
I, personally, feel that if Gaspo had really attacked Osiris he would be brought up on charges. This "recall" is nothing more than a ruse, since there is no evidence to support a trial.

Someone, whomever that might be, is trying to seek personal vengeance rather than actual justice.

I say we vote on it, shoot it down overwhelmingly, and be done with it. There is nothing further to talk about.
 
Gaspo:
Eluvatar:
I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to recall Gaspo if Osiris takes no action toward him as a citizen of Osiris, no.
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You're the prosecutor there, Elu. Initiating legal action against in Osiris is your decision. You left out that minor detail.

GBM, madjack has indicated (last I heard) that he intends to release a statement tomorrow. So you'll have his perspective at that time, as far as I know.
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I did not say legal action, I said [any] action.
 
Gaspo:
One final note: for those of you who can see it (not sure if everyone can), Quad, the vice-delegate equivalent (silly Osiris titles) has posted a statement HERE. I have reproduced one key sentence below:
For any charges of treason, those charges lie strictly in the hands of Biyah, New Kervoskia, and Dalimbar.
Click to expand...
I would not that my name is omitted from that list, whose wording indicates a completely inclusive list of those responsible.
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For the record, those titles aren't silly, I invented them with the others (but mostly it was my contribution) :P

I agree that there's need for the proper investigation in Osiris itself, and I would really like to see what George/Madjack will say.
Personally, I don't judge Gaspo until there's any solid evidence.
 
Eluvatar:
Gaspo:
Eluvatar:
I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to recall Gaspo if Osiris takes no action toward him as a citizen of Osiris, no.
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You're the prosecutor there, Elu. Initiating legal action against in Osiris is your decision. You left out that minor detail.

GBM, madjack has indicated (last I heard) that he intends to release a statement tomorrow. So you'll have his perspective at that time, as far as I know.
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I did not say legal action, I said [any] action.
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<lawyer> So legal or illegal, either is fine? </lawyer>



Seriously though, the point is that zero action has been taken. Georgie's own statement, where he very questionably twists Osiris' laws, doesn't mention me either. I'm not involved, simple as that. Gov and perhaps others might wish it were true, but it isn't. Simple as that.
 
This witch hunt is silly. No one has been more outspoken against the coup and those responsible for it than I have, but there's no solid evidence of any kind that Gaspo was involved. He did nothing with his endorsements that a multitude of others didn't do under direct orders and as a result of trickery, and his resignation of WA after the coup proves nothing. It could be that he resigned because he was part of the coup but it could just as easily be that he resigned for the reasons he has stated, and we shouldn't recall someone based on our gut -- and nothing more -- telling us it was the former rather than the latter.

I do agree that this isn't worth a vote, but I think it should go to a vote anyway so that the Regional Assembly can clearly and unambiguously reject witch hunts and rogue justice as a means of dealing with this situation.
 
Govindia:
Gaspo:
My only comment on this matter is that I was in no way a part of this coup, and will document if necessary the orders from my government in Osiris, which I followed to the letter.
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Not from what I heard from others. You took part in the coup along with Neenee, Dalimbar, New Kervoskia, Biyah, Nevadar, members of Gatesville and the AC.
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Somehow I missed this post previously. Apart from a brief period when I was a Pacific Senator (during which time our relationship with Gatesville was awful) I've never even been friendly with Gatesville. Are you suggesting I'm involved with Gatesville? A co-conspirator with people I've never even liked? Such accusations are baseless and the slander on my good name will not be taken lightly.

As for these "others" you mentioned, please by all means produce some evidence of this. Give us names, give us a log, give us an email, a PM, video of a smoke signal. Anything! If I'm guilty, by all means prove it!
 
Speaking of which, how is Gatesville even still alive? They were scattered to the four winds when Gates went all emo kid and destroyed the region. By all logic, they should be more wreck than Lindsay Lohan's career.
 
I would like Govindia to please present us with some evidence that Gaspo was involved in the coup beyond doing what everyone else did at the time.
 
Gaspo:
Eluvatar:
Gaspo:
Eluvatar:
I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to recall Gaspo if Osiris takes no action toward him as a citizen of Osiris, no.
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You're the prosecutor there, Elu. Initiating legal action against in Osiris is your decision. You left out that minor detail.

GBM, madjack has indicated (last I heard) that he intends to release a statement tomorrow. So you'll have his perspective at that time, as far as I know.
Click to expand...

I did not say legal action, I said [any] action.
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<lawyer> So legal or illegal, either is fine? </lawyer>



Seriously though, the point is that zero action has been taken. Georgie's own statement, where he very questionably twists Osiris' laws, doesn't mention me either. I'm not involved, simple as that. Gov and perhaps others might wish it were true, but it isn't. Simple as that.
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If someone can please quote George's and This "Quad"s statements here I'd appreciate that seeing as I have access to neither statement in Osiris. Thanks.

And wasn't the Vice Delegate called the Kai Repat?
 
Govindia:
*points to Eluvatar's information*

It's all too much of a coincidence.
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What information? All Eluvatar said was that there existed, at best, only circumstantial evidence that Gaspo was involved and that that wasn't enough to prove anything at all. I must agree with Joshua, if that's all you got, Gov, it's complete mudslinging rubbish.
 
A recall motion does not actually need reasons or evidence. However, in a society like ours I would like to think that a recall would need something beyond circumstantial evidence in order to actually pass.

This has been proposed by Gov and seconded by Blue Wolf. in 24 Hours it goes to vote, unless one of them withdraws.
 
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