What shape of government?

Flemingovia

Flemingovia

TNPer
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My experience has been that ANY form of government works - if there is sufficient will (and goodwill) to make it work.

In TNP over the years we have tried all sorts, but for some years we have sought to maintain a constitutional democracy.

Is that the best pattern for the future?

Should we stick with the current constitution, or write a new one?

Are consitutions worth the pixels they are written with?
 
The most glaring issue with the current constitution IMO is that there are too many positions to fill. The CLO and judiciary are the obvious branches that could be cut. CLO is completely pointless and NS judicial systems always break down time and time again.

As for offsite delegate elections, I've never understood why people are so opposed to them. TNP's security concerns stem from 1) inactivity and 2) high endorsement caps. Further, a secure TNP is basically just another TSP.... security is somewhat overrated anyway.
 
Deciding on what shape the government should take is a tricky matter because everyone has their own opinion regarding every point that they feel is right.

Is that the best pattern for the future? - TNP holds tightly onto democracy at its core and this is probably something that will never change no matter what. So the question should really become not if a constitutional democracy is best for TNP but rather how large and technical of a government should TNP have. I feel that TNP should have a minimal government that is easily accessible with few but simple rules.

Should we stick with the current constitution, or write a new one? - The current constitution comes from a different age of NS and over the years and months had more and more piled into it. At this point I think that it is better to start from scratch for this different age. Yes, there are good ideas in the constitution and should be kept but that can be managed by carrying them over and simplified in a new document.

Are consitutions worth the pixels they are written with? - All constitutions start off with meaning and purpose that fits for the time they were written. However, this fades with age as the game itself changes and it grows too large for its own good. All governments are doomed to failure, the questions are how long will they be able to successfully last before that happens and how does it go out. This time we are given the chance to let this document gracefully fade away well after its time was up.
 
Everyone knows the Constitution is just a GD piece of, um, pixels! :)

Seriously, I do think the new government should be less convoluted than the old one.
 
Well, authoritarianism really wouldn't work. TNP natives are too unruly to do what they're told. :P
(Also, The Pacific has the name NPO trademarked, or something.)

A constitution is helpful in ensuring some consistency in what the delegate can or should do, but it should be shorter and more to the point. I don't even know for sure what exactly the current version contains, and I'm not sure who does except possibly Flemingovia and Eluvatar.
 
Simplification of the current Constitution is probably the best starting point. If you are going to tare down a house you had better know what kind of house you are going to build in its stead.

I think we can create a government with the appropriate branches and checks and balances and make it un-convoluted. Delegate as chief executive (who can create a cabinet to advise - note that I say 'advise' rather than over-rule a Delegate), a court and a legislative branch. Of course, as with any executive branch, the executive should be there to set policy and to 'execute' the Constitution and Law rather than to make law.
 
We can get rid of the CLO and simplify some of the constitution's clauses.

The really messy stuff is in the Legal Code, as usual.

What I think we need to keep:

1. Delegate, elected on forum. (I would support changing the election system if there were strong demand for it.)
2. Delegate-appointed executive government.
3. A citizen legislature, with the power to change the laws (and ratify treaties).
4. A functional court system, if at all possible.
5. An organ similar to the Security Council (including a Vice Delegate) to check the Delegate and support them.

The CLO can go. The legislature can be renamed but it really needs procedural reform to keep the Speaker from being the single lifeline. The registration process is regulated by TNP Law 28, poorly.
 
Good idea. Little discourages participation more than the 30-day rule. TNP natives are most encouraged to join the forum when something special happens that they can be part of, and elections are a regular major event.

Even when elections are announced well in advance, it seems silly to say "Come to the forum, something interesting is happening! Sorry, no, if you wanted to participate you should have joined a month ago. Come back in a couple of months. Have fun watching, though." It's not like a month of idling in the RA will improve them or weed unsuitable people out...
 
At the moment, it seems to me that it may be more important just to get something established through elections if possible. Making progress on this may take quite some time.

I'd generally say though, that Elu's outline is fine. Though I don't see cause for a Judiciary until there's enough activity to support one. And at that - one that doesn't take months to do something.
 
"1. Delegate, elected on forum. (I would support changing the election system if there were strong demand for it.)"

I'd actually support an in-game electorate.

Here's a conversation between me and Jal where I talked about my idea..
01[16:37] <Uni> In my own much smaller region, we ran a system where we had electorate nations.
[16:37] <jal> Letting everyone vote would attract a lot more interest
01[16:37] <Uni> TNP could run the same system on a much bigger form.
[16:37] <jal> yus
01[16:38] <Uni> A nation has twenty telegrams to a box.
01[16:38] <Uni> Let`s say, TNP has four hundred nations. [In reality it has about two hundred]
01[16:38] <Uni> That means the TNP adminstration would have to manage twenty electorate nations whose main purposes is to basically count votes coming from people.
01[16:39] <Uni> They`d have a list of nations who apply to the electorate.
01[16:39] <Uni> An the nation gets a telegram telling them with electorate to vote using.
01[16:39] <Uni> The forums would be used for counting votes, and running campaigns, but the actual system is in-game.
01[16:40] <Uni> I think you`d see a much better turn-out, and the democracy wouldn't be such a joke.
[16:41] <jal> yeah in-game voting could be a good idea
01[16:43] <Uni> We could use NSdossier to rip a list of WA nations on a certain declared date, and then have our security ministers run through to make sure that the list don`t contain anyone who could be threat to the soverigntry of the region.
01[16:44] <Uni> And then seperate that list into twenty electorates and start sending out telegrams.
01[16:44] <Uni> Much better.
[17:30] <jal> yus
[17:30] <jal> also, IMO non-WA's should be able to vote as long as they can account for their WA somewhere else (to avoid fraud)
01[17:31] <Uni> Eh, I`m not such a fan of that, because if they know the date to be in the region when we`re going to rip the list of WAs, you just move temporarily.
01[17:31] <Uni> We`d just do it, half between updates so anyone could move there and not worry about updating.
[17:33] <jal> that's true
[17:33] <jal> and nobody actually uses their WA's for espionage anymore
01[17:33] <Uni> Like, if update is at 12 am and 12 pm, advertise in the WA that all legitmate WA voters have to be in the region at 5 pm (whatever timezone) on a certain day.
01[17:34] <Uni> Special allowances could be made for spies and soilders.
01[17:34] <Uni> They`d just need to be processed by the security team first.
[17:35] <jal> yea
01[17:35] <Uni> Maybe they`d need to be RA members..
[17:35] <jal> it'd be nice of people to tell us who they're spying on, too :P
01[17:35] <Uni> So RA members + all WA members in the region at a certain date, could vote.
01[17:35] <Uni> Just an elaborate pipe dream.
[17:35] <jal> haha
Click to expand...
 
[17:30] <jal> also, IMO non-WA's should be able to vote as long as they can account for their WA somewhere else (to avoid fraud)
Click to expand...

I think that would be an administrative nightmare.

I can see that it would be fairly easy to provide an electoral method to all WA nations in the region. A census would need to establish eligable WA's at the start of voting, to prevent new WA's from moving into the region to vote during the election.

That's not hard to do though, wouldn't take long.

The region has just over 200 WA's in it at present.

Just telegram each eligble nation for their vote. If they do not reply by the end of the election cycle, they're out of luck.
 
Westwind:
[17:30] <jal> also, IMO non-WA's should be able to vote as long as they can account for their WA somewhere else (to avoid fraud)
Click to expand...

I think that would be an administrative nightmare.

I can see that it would be fairly easy to provide an electoral method to all WA nations in the region. A census would need to establish eligable WA's at the start of voting, to prevent new WA's from moving into the region to vote during the election.

That's not hard to do though, wouldn't take long.

The region has just over 200 WA's in it at present.

Just telegram each eligble nation for their vote. If they do not reply by the end of the election cycle, they're out of luck.
Click to expand...
That would probably be a better way to go... I was thinking off the top of my head in the posted convo.
 
Westwind:
I can see that it would be fairly easy to provide an electoral method to all WA nations in the region. A census would need to establish eligable WA's at the start of voting, to prevent new WA's from moving into the region to vote during the election.

That's not hard to do though, wouldn't take long.

The region has just over 200 WA's in it at present.

Just telegram each eligble nation for their vote. If they do not reply by the end of the election cycle, they're out of luck.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Just set a date and put it in the WFE, "If you want to be eligible to vote or participate in the election, be in TNP at this *time/date* till *time* with your WA nation".

Then run a NSdossier scan at that time/date, or a simple script like the one I use to pull a list of WAs from a region ( a script would be real-time so it would be a better idea.. NSdossier works on files from last update I believe.).
 
Aye, and I have a endo scanner as well, so it's easily accomplished.

That provides the eligibility, then the method of accounting votes will need to be established.

The other issue that would arrise from this system, is the need for active folks to send telegrams to all the WA nations to request their votes. It's hard enough to get anyone to take the time to send out telegrams as it is.
 
Westwind:
The other issue that would arrise from this system, is the need for active folks to send telegrams to all the WA nations to request their votes. It's hard enough to get anyone to take the time to send out telegrams as it is.
Click to expand...
Well, I think everyone is somewhat frustrated about this failure of democracy. If we all channeled that frustration into running an election we'd be set for life (at-least for this election -- however -- part of the problem with the previous constitution was that it didn't anticipate political apathy in future generations).

I'd be willing to put forth my efforts to telegram half of that list.

I'd say the best system would be if, let's say we have 10 electorate nations.

When you send that standard letter to inform the voter how voting is going to proceed, send the letter as the specific electoral nation that is related to that electorate. So if you're in Group B of the 200 nations, send the letter to Group B members, logged in as Group B Elector. So the voter only has to deal with one nation, its elector in its 'principality'. Maybe a little complex to organize (really, it is simple if you think it through and list it out), but very simple for the voter.

Something we'd have to figure out is passwords, I think the passwords of elector nations would only be shared between the trusted election commissioner and the electorate coordinator of that elector principality. Anything else is a security issue.
 
I was thinking, several people will get the password from the election commissioner to send the telegrams as the elector nations, but after the telegrams are sent then the election commissioner changes the password for further security. Because one trusted person is all we need to tally and manage 10 electorate nation's voting boxes.
 
Was this conversation ever resolved elsewhere?

If not...

How are the nations that have never logged into the forums (or even the ones that haven't logged in recently) going to be able to make anything close to an informed decision?

Not necessarily a criticism just wondering how this doesn't become a contest based on whose name sounds funny or whose flag looks cooler?
 
No, it was not. It had stagnated and then we struggled to get through the last Delegate elections. Since then, we've worked with the present Constitution, while Flem has chosen not to form a government.

Some reforms are moving through the Regional Assembly to resolve issues and smooth regional operations. That would include the recent Election and Quorum amendments, and the CLO Removal now at vote.
 
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