TAO for delegate

Hey, Felasia, noone asked you to come by.

If any of z13 wanted to have a mindless debate with you, they'd go over to Westwind's forum.

Now, please go back to northpacific.info so you can have your mindless banter with the rest of the folks over there and talk about how great it is that you all agree on everything.
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Oww.... Khark wants attention.... My bad for stealing the light from him. :duh: Here have some cookies and sit like a good boy on the corner for a second will you? Grown-up needs to talk, okay?

Anyway, I was just voicing my opinion on the matter. I'm sorry if this offend anyone.

Yes I have seen change before this event, you are just blinb or it's just you think you are the only WORTHY people who can bring change? Come on, you know that with time the people will have obligated to change. You just made it faster and painful, and surely in vain. When the emotion will be down nothing will have change.
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Karastot, if you think making it faster is bad then you are surely misunderstanding the situation, painful it might be, miserable it might be, but necessary it is. Don't you think it is you who're blindly under the illusion of this "democracy" some of you create?
 
TAO:
Romanoffia:
I see in Kark's post that TAO posted that he was engaging in a cooperative effort with Gatesville - and did so on L&Cs rogue forum.

Please explain that to us, TAO.
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Wow ... first Lazarus and now TNP. :lol: TAO has been accused of many things in four years of game playing so nothing surprises me any more.

I guess I was ~hoping~ to cooperate with Gatesville. I had hoped the GV crew could move me a hundred or so endos closer to my 1K goal. If by helping me I was able to help them, that would be fair. And come on ... who outside The Pacific doesn't want to be the one known for taking The Pacific? As for TNP ... I was aware of what was going on (little passes by unknown to TAO) but not a participant. I even suggested to L&C his plan would take months (into years) to pull off if he tried while a Minnow.

I will also say that both Gates and L&C TGed me in game to apologize for tying up everyone and his brother in TNP during my Endo Events. I really do think I could have reached 750 or so had TNP not been all pouchy. Admittedly, 1000 endos was a dream ... but it was a good dream ... not like the dreams that others have.

Regardless of Polts' position regarding TAO, I would still be willing to serve TNP as a compromise delegate in a new (simpler, less bureaucratic) government. And I would guarantee I would serve ~at least~ three months and ~at most~ six months and then peacefully transition the region over to the next regionally selected delegate. The exact terms for such a compromise could be discussed later, if accepted. And if such a compromise could be negotiated, TNP would be saved months of stalemate.

Of course, TAO is just as happy not being anyone of importance. And I have to admit, I like the arcade games in the other forum. As silly as it sounds, I have never played such games online before ... they are kinda fun. Could a forum like this one host such a thing?
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Yeah, and what happened was that gatesville and L&C tried to use that as an excuse to weaken any opposition by drawing off endorsements from that opposition.

They tried to weaken Moo in TP by exactly the same tactic. IOW, they used you as a tool, or at least tried to.

You of all people should have realized that you never deal with gatesville in any meaningful fashion.
 
Don't you think it is you who're blindly under the illusion of this "democracy" some of you create?
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No I have FAITH! Like WW have faith in his action, did he his blind? Surely not.
We have all faith, GOD, in us, for other, in ideal and for hope. WW have the chance to make the difference with the democratic system there but he choose to broke all that have been accomplish in TNP, did he is wrong? only future will tell us but what I am against is how he made it. He think that only his hands and his power can change the situation....dont you see? You are just for him tools for his plan.

What you need is a exemple that Democracy can fonction and TNP can survive with the system he has. I told you this: I WILL WORK TO PROVE YOU, it's a promise, I will not stop until you see with your own eyes.
 
You call that a faith, I call that a blind follewer. I don't believe in god, but I respect the believers. (I'm a buddhist and.... I think a bit atheist although I graduate from Catholic School... weird huh?)

You see hunger for power, I see a decision to take action. We have different view of the situation. I feel that we should leave this Thread for TAO. This is getting way off topic. :)

TAO - Yeah, I like the arcade too. :D
 
Felasia:
Yes, but it doesn't mean that vice-delegate can takeover when the delegate is still here and it is aganist every democracy ideal you have in this region.
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First off, what would you know of our democratic ideals? Presumably what you've seen on whoopsnoadvertisingthatforum.info ...

Secondly, it has been the tradition of the Fourth Republic to have the Vice Delegate replace the Delegate when the Delegate tries to abolish the Constitution he was elected under.

In the past this was partly because the Vice Delegate was also elected. However, the basic concept of the Constitution is that by its very existence no one is supreme leader, no on is absolute monarch of TNP.

The key part of the Constitution (in this case the Bill of Rights) is the following section:

Bill of Rights:
11. No governmental authority of the region has the power to suspend or disregard this Constitution or the Legal Code[.] In the event of an actual emergency, the governmental authorities of the region, with the express consent of the Nations of the region or their representatives, is authorized to act in any reasonable manner that is consistent as practicable with the pertinent provisions of this Constitution.
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This clearly means:
1. No official (including the Delegate) can suspend or disregard the Constitution. That obviously includes abolishing, repealing, or destroying it.
2. In an emergency (i.e. now) governmental authorities (i.e. the Speaker, the Vice Delegate) are authorized to act in "any reasonable manner ... consistent as practicable ... with this Constitution". In other words, In order to save democracy in the region, the current officials are allowed some leeway in following the Constitution.
 
Felasia:
1. A bullshit democratic in my opinion then.... You claim that you are democratic yet you select peoples within your circle?

2. Calling me noobs... I'm flatter. :D This is clearly the answer for number 10. I might not have been in z13 forum very long, but my nations have been in TNP for 1+1/2 Years that I play NS and I've only play NS for 2 years and I still have much to learn. Building yourself up by tearing me down is something I really enjoy seeing people try, but that doens't mean I'm going to let you do it. <_<

He disregard the abolishes constitution that the delegate must be elected by the peoples and not by one man with the most authority in this z13 government.

3. Please don't tell me that your group of nations here are democratic when you selected the delegate and also appointed minister to position like we're.

4. The delegate abolishe your forum. It's just my view that I no longer recognize this forum.

5. Have you ever considered joining the "real forum" before answer this question? Our university is currently open with many course like NS history, Physics, Greek and a couple lessons had already start.

Our RDF have been in a defence mission with TITO unlike the NPA...........

HOL - check it before you talk

Activity - we have balls, HOL, "real" army, so compare it to the current state of your government...

7. Khark posted it because he's not happy that we decide to start on going a little more "democracy" because he want the power to himself.

8. ADN was at the peak when he is still a member. Can you claim that you're the one who lead the only successful feeder liberation in the history? He left the ADN before it decline.

10. Check #2 because that's the first name I'm going to give you.
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1. As pointed out, we didn't select people, we followed procedures. GBM was the Vice Delegate, and with L&C effectively leaving this government, that made her interim Delegate by the Constitution. None of your false bullshit.

2. I love how you ignored the part where I proved you wrong, and instead went for a word I reserve for "idiot" rather than "new person". Bravo, way to not focus on the issue at hand. It's ok, I know that it's really because you're wrong and you have no defense against it.

And no, he did not do what you claimed. He abolished the Constitution without following the procedure (aka, passing a vote with 75% of the populace in support).

3. We did NOT select the Delegate. The previous Delegate left this government, and Constitutional provisions went into affect. When the vast majority of government officials leave, the Delegate can appoint people to temporarily replace the ones who left.

You, on the other hand, will never have an election in your false government, ever.

4. The Delegate did no such thing. He established his own forum. We're still here, aren't we?

5. When you don't leave your institutions open to the public and yet claim that something is going on, then I can assume all I want.

6. Split:

a. Your army is still set up to raid.

b. As for your HoL- I'm looking at it right now. I see 2 threads dedicated to Khark, 2 for appointing a government position, 4 discussing setting up the government, one of which is discussing how the HoL isn't doing its job, and about 2 talking about this forum. Bright new ideas? Yeah right.

c. Your testicles are in your mouth. Oh, snap.

7. :rofl: You guys are about as democratic as North Korea is IRL. It STILL doesn't prove those documents false, and they clearly show WW's real intent.

8. Then your structure is still unstable, because the moment WW slacks off the least bit, no one else in your region will be capable of doing any part of his job.

10. This makes absolutely no sense.
 
1. As pointed out, we didn't select people, we followed procedures. GBM was the Vice Delegate, and with L&C effectively leaving this government, that made her interim Delegate by the Constitution. None of your false bullshit.

2. I love how you ignored the part where I proved you wrong, and instead went for a word I reserve for "idiot" rather than "new person". Bravo, way to not focus on the issue at hand. It's ok, I know that it's really because you're wrong and you have no defense against it.

And no, he did not do what you claimed. He abolished the Constitution without following the procedure (aka, passing a vote with 75% of the populace in support).

3. We did NOT select the Delegate. The previous Delegate left this government, and Constitutional provisions went into affect. When the vast majority of government officials leave, the Delegate can appoint people to temporarily replace the ones who left.

You, on the other hand, will never have an election in your false government, ever.

4. The Delegate did no such thing. He established his own forum. We're still here, aren't we?

5. When you don't leave your institutions open to the public and yet claim that something is going on, then I can assume all I want.

6. Split:

a. Your army is still set up to raid.

b. As for your HoL- I'm looking at it right now. I see 2 threads dedicated to Khark, 2 for appointing a government position, 4 discussing setting up the government, one of which is discussing how the HoL isn't doing its job, and about 2 talking about this forum. Bright new ideas? Yeah right.

c. Your testicles are in your mouth. Oh, snap.

7.  You guys are about as democratic as North Korea is IRL. It STILL doesn't prove those documents false, and they clearly show WW's real intent.

8. Then your structure is still unstable, because the moment WW slacks off the least bit, no one else in your region will be capable of doing any part of his job.

10. This makes absolutely no sense.
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1. GBM was never elected so your claim of a democratic region is nothing, but a lie.

2. Your Legal Code stated that the delegate must be elected and the fact that you speaker disregard this fact and act on his own power is disregarding the constitution.

3. Your Speaker of the RA selected the delegate.

4. He abolished this forum. The Constitution before it's abolished allow him to do that.

5. lol, register or login yet? Check it before you speak.

6. - RDF defend Central Amerca from invasion. (Talk to TITO if you don't believe them) Your NPA just sit and talk. Anyway; there is no tactical distinction between raiders and defenders, as anyone who's ever been on a liberation could tell you.

- HoL is far more active the RA in my opinion.

- Ball... RP? You know? You disregard the fact that the event happen and choose to mock my grammars.. It's like you said in your answer #2 : "I love how you ignored the part where I proved you wrong."

7. And you're very democratic. Your HoS was a puppet. Your government is non-existant. Your army likes to bad-mouth.

8. Unstable => Improvement => Activity No system is perfect and to think that they're means you're blind.

10. That makes sense, but you ignore it.

Anyway, PM me and not posted in TAO's thread. I like TAO so I don't want to make his thread become the place for a personal conflict.
 
Sorry I;ve not been involved long but it seems to me that anyone who is elected under a code only remains legitimate so long as they uphold that code. You cannot abolish the code, then claim legitimacy under that code. It is silly.

Felasia, you cannot have your cake and eat it.
 
Bottle of grog:
Sorry I;ve not been involved long but it seems to me that anyone who is elected under a code only remains legitimate so long as they uphold that code. You cannot abolish the code, then claim legitimacy under that code. It is silly.

Felasia, you cannot have your cake and eat it.
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You can if you have the power.

If Great Bights Mum retakes the delegacy, she can put back in place the constitution, and abolish everything Westwind/L&C put in place.
 
But at no point is Great Bights Mum going to be accepting Westwind's system now is she?

Westwind accepted and used this system.

We should really stop talking about this in this thread though. Perhaps a split's in order?
 
Eluvatar:
But at no point is Great Bights Mum going to be accepting Westwind's system now is she?

Westwind accepted and used this system.
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Accepted? It would seem obvious to me that he was just using it to his own
advantage, which was ridiculously easy for him.

Well, what exactly has WW introduced that's notable in any way?
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It would seem self-evident.

Edit: Put in quote since it's a new page, and reply to OK.
 
Outer Kharkistania:
Well, what exactly has WW introduced that's notable in any way?
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That's easy to answer - he introduced a dictatorship and he actually realized that he has to suck up to the very people to whom he did a big fat nasty in order to stay in power. Fat chance of his survival. :yes:


R

[edit: silly grammar correction. I call that 'correctile dysfunction' ;D ]
 
Heh.

Err...that plot you were involved in hatching with the Lexiconian High Council of which you were a member? With Limitless Events, The LWU, Shoeless Joe gave the information to Flem? Ring any bells? No? ;)

Not that I'm trying to make any other point that everyone here isn't as morally righteous as they might like to make out.
 
Emperor Matthuis:
Heh.

Err...that plot you were involved in hatching with the Lexiconian High Council of which you were a member? With Limitless Events, The LWU, Shoeless Joe gave the information to Flem? Ring any bells? No? ;)

Not that I'm trying to make any other point that everyone here isn't as morally righteous as they might like to make out.
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Yes it does ring a bell. I remember reading about it when Flemingovia made his announcement after banning Limi.

I have repeatedly made clear on this forum that I only became part of the Lexicon High Council after the event. At the time I simply joined the RA because I was told it would be allowed and I wanted to.

Now I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I don't believe I've ever ever ran for a position under a constitution and then voided that constitution.

Finally your point is no longer that what L&C did was good, you're now basically saying "It's bad but everybody does it." Am I right?
 
Eluvatar:
Yes it does ring a bell. I remember reading about it when Flemingovia made his announcement after banning Limi.
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Heh, okay, the following is quoted from here, and is written by Sovereign Dixie, a former delegate of The Lexicon.

I have bolded some of the relevant parts.

Sovereign Dixie:
Propaganda posters were being cranked out regularly, Elu did some great ones as i recall. The first phase of the war was a massive RMB (Regional Message Board) spam campaign.

It was about this time that one of us (I dont recall if it was me or someone else, to be honest) made a post behind closed doors expressing their frustration with the conduct of the war, and how we basically needed to get our asses in gear. This was the genesis of a long brainstorming session in which TCM, PoD, TGR, Eluvatar, and myself, all Directors at this juncture. Worked with the founders to concoct various scenarios in which The Lex could at least get a symbolic or temporary victory. Holding the Delegacy for at least one day.

It was from this session that the Endo Tarting campaign was conceived. The idea was to send several of us into TNP to endotart for as long as possible before suspicion was raised. The goal was to get close enough to the sitting Delegate (at this time, I think it was GBM, who had been preceeded by FEC at the wars outset) so that a blitzkrieg of about 30 or so UN's could be launched and sieze the Delegacy.

There were, I believe, five of us. TCM, Myself, Elu, Pragmia, and Akka Wakka though I may be missing a name or including someob]ne who wasn't there. I am at least certain of mine, TCM's and Elus participation[/. To protect those not party to this disclosure, I shall not be listing the names of the puppets used, save for mine, which was Psychotic Lightbulb.
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Eluvatar:
I have repeatedly made clear on this forum that I only became part of the Lexicon High Council after the event. At the time I simply joined the RA because I was told it would be allowed and I wanted to.

Now I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I don't believe I've ever ever ran for a position under a constitution and then voided that constitution.
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Heh.

It then goes onto to mention the Shoeless Joe/Limitless Events incident, and considering that Eluvatar was a key player in the earlier attempts to take the TNP delegacy, and joined the RA in order to have Limi elected, it is obvious that he was involved in the later attempt. There is a post by BW that details the plot as well, but I cannot find it.

Anyway I digress, if only to prove my point.

Finally your point is no longer that what L&C did was good, you're now basically saying "It's bad but everybody does it." Am I right?
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No, I think you may be confused here.

I think that L&C did good, I admire him for his planning and ruthless execution. His new government has attracted significant support and whatever members of this forum may say, every day that passes is another victory for him, and will only demoralize his opponents. Yes, it is not proper to betray those who supported you, but yes everyone does it, I did it. But what this has to do with anything I am not sure.
 
Then again, everyday we are still here is a defeat for the Crimsons, based on how badly they want to pacify us, either by bringing us into the fold and marginalizing us or crushing us.

Of course, this also show's that the Crimsons are evolving into the 2nd form of dictatorship, a much more dangerous one that attempts to bring its enemies into the government and either corrupt them or strangle them once they are there.

Real World Parallels: PRI Mexico and Gabon

To quote a fellow from an excellent article on Gabon: The Crimson Order "attacks his opponents by bringing them into his fold, offering them top posts, giving them a piece of the pie. He's like a boa constrictor. He suffocates his prey until it's weak, then swallows it."
 
Outer Kharkistania:
Then again, everyday we are still here is a defeat for the Crimsons, based on how badly they want to pacify us, either by bringing us into the fold and marginalizing us or crushing us.

Of course, this also show's that the Crimsons are evolving into the 2nd form of dictatorship, a much more dangerous one that attempts to bring its enemies into the government and either corrupt them or strangle them once they are there.

Real World Parallels: PRI Mexico and Gabon

To quote a fellow from an excellent article on Gabon: The Crimson Order "attacks his opponents by bringing them into his fold, offering them top posts, giving them a piece of the pie. He's like a boa constrictor. He suffocates his prey until it's weak, then swallows it."
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Ironically, WW's tactics along those lines are a sign of weakness - meaning that he knows he's going for a spiral ride down the old crapper and it's just matter of time.

Trying to con people by an amnesty is just a way of eliminating one's enemies by other means. Funny, isn't it? Someone commits a criminal act by going rogue and then he is going to offer his victims 'amnesty' for the crime of not being traitors and collaborators?

Hehe.
 
Then again, everyday we are still here is a defeat for the Crimsons, based on how badly they want to pacify us, either by bringing us into the fold and marginalizing us or crushing us.
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It's "us" now huh? Quite fast that you jump from us when we're not going to turn TNP into "Raider Paradise" like you want.....

Trying to con people by an amnesty is just a way of eliminating one's enemies by other means. Funny, isn't it? Someone commits a criminal act by going rogue and then he is going to offer his victims 'amnesty' for the crime of not being traitors and collaborators?
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We offer you amnesty because we do care about TNP future. The different between you and the Crimson Order is that we recognized the past, but we don't cling to it. About going Rogue... check Taijitu and tell me if that is another delegate going rogue or not.
 
I stand by my statement. I was not in the Lexicon High Council.

I was a footsoldier in the early attempts to fill TNP with endotarts and try and take the delegacy. These attempts failed. I also made a bunch of nice-looking pictures for the Lexiconian side as propaganda: I have put them available for you to look at here

I was not however on the Lexicon High Council. I did not know of the Limi plot until after it was blocked. I was involved in it-- again, as a pawn. I was told I could register in the RA, and asked to. I was not involved in planning at that time, and had no knowledge of the purposes.

When Blue Wolf earlier mistakenly listed me, I mentioned I actually wasn't in it and he acknowledged that.

I'm actually slightly offended now that on the simple point I am stating, that I was not in the High Council, that I did not actually know of any plot to have Limi become TNP Delegate, you are calling me a liar. Your evidence states only that I was involved in the early-war efforts as basically a pawn-- this I was. Nothing you have said demonstrates I was on the Lexicon High Council at that time. Why? Because I simply wasn't.

I'm not arguing that I am a perfect example of righteousness, but I, Eluvatar, am no liar, and I was not a responsible party in the incident you are smearing me with.
 
check Taijitu and tell me if that is another delegate going rogue or not.
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You surely not compare the two situation! :eyebrow: because is not really the same, you know it? <_< We talk about a feeders region who the power are given in the Hand of one man, and a region who has is Founders to protect the legitimity of his people. Region and Feeders politic are not the same.

Dont compare the two.
 
because is not really the same, you know it?
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But the similarity exist in both regions situation, both Taijitu and TNP delegate sees the inactivity of the region and decide to do something about it. TNo by shifting into new forum and abandone the flaw of the old constitution. Taijitu by looking into the system and try to find the way to make it better.

Region and Feeders politic are not the same.
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While I agree that UCR and Feeders politic aren't the same, however both region have same problem. Inactivity is slowly coming in and some peoples are too comfortable with their position that they don't or don't want to worry about the situation of the region as a whole.
 
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