DISCUSSION: TNP vs Matt

Poltsamaa:
Haor Chall:
Ah, Polts, we've missed you.  :hug:
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I'm sure your aim will be better next time!! :P

Woo Woo!! All aboard the Judicial System..err..Express!! Woo!! Woo!!

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I assure you that this case will not languish and will be conducted with no undue delay.
 
Shouldn't it be the Constitutional Government of TNP versus Great Matthius? Technically, as Delegate of TNP he represents TNP as a whole, therefore it is misleading (to say the least) to state that any suit brought in this court reflects the power and opinion of the region as a whole. If he is found Guilty in this court will the ADMIN remove him from the Delegacy?
 
Emperor Matthuis is not recognized as the Delegate, therefore he has to be tried in a criminal proceeding.

If he were recognized, then he'd be subject to the recall process which is even quicker and doesn't require a trial, just a vote of the regional assembly.
 
Romanoffia:
I assure you that this case will not languish and will be conducted with no undue delay.
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Compared to previous "trials" you'd be hard pressed to be any slower!!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllll Aboooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrddd!!
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Emperor Matthuis is not recognized as the Delegate, therefore he has to be tried in a criminal proceeding.

If he were recognized, then he'd be subject to the recall process which is even quicker and doesn't require a trial, just a vote of the regional assembly.
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How can you not recognize the sitting Delegate as the Delegate? That makes no sense, logically, legally or otherwise.

 
Also, you failed to address my last question. If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
 
Pierconium:
Also, you failed to address my last question.  If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
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:hug: Welcome in the "I'm still not getting an answer to my questions, guys!" club, Pierconium...

... but remember. It's *me* the founding member of said club: look at the whole thread and you'll see i have A TON of unanswered questions! :lol:
 
Pierconium:
Also, you failed to address my last question. If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
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Of course not. The "legally recognized by the Constitutional Government of The North Pacific" bit goes without saying. Semantics, pah!
 
Great Bights Mum:
Pierconium:
Also, you failed to address my last question.  If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
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I'm sure they'll try like hell.
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The "try" would never be in question. I am well aware of the "try" in regards to disposing those that do not wish to be removed.

What I meant to say is overall, wouldn't it be to the betterment of the region as a whole to embrace the new Delegate as the actual Delegate in all aspects since any outcome put forth here would be seen as obvious and predetermined by one side and morally satisfying but ultimately neutered in effect by the other?
 
Pierconium:
Great Bights Mum:
Pierconium:
Also, you failed to address my last question.  If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
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I'm sure they'll try like hell.
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The "try" would never be in question. I am well aware of the "try" in regards to disposing those that do not wish to be removed.

What I meant to say is overall, wouldn't it be to the betterment of the region as a whole to embrace the new Delegate as the actual Delegate in all aspects since any outcome put forth here would be seen as obvious and predetermined by one side and morally satisfying but ultimately neutered in effect by the other?
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No.
 
Monte Ozarka:
Pierconium:
Great Bights Mum:
Pierconium:
Also, you failed to address my last question.  If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
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I'm sure they'll try like hell.
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The "try" would never be in question. I am well aware of the "try" in regards to disposing those that do not wish to be removed.

What I meant to say is overall, wouldn't it be to the betterment of the region as a whole to embrace the new Delegate as the actual Delegate in all aspects since any outcome put forth here would be seen as obvious and predetermined by one side and morally satisfying but ultimately neutered in effect by the other?
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No.
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No to which aspect? That is would not be better or that it would be an ineffective and ultimately unenforcable verdict?
 
We have already embraced a delegate of our own choosing. 1

Let's be honest Ivan, if you had the choice of embracing Emperor Matthuis or Great Bight's Mum you would choose Mum every time. Wouldn't you? I would.

:P
 
flemingovia:
We have already embraced a delegate of our own choosing. 1

Let's be honest Ivan, if you had the choice of embracing Emperor Matthuis or Great Bight's Mum you would choose Mum every time. Wouldn't you? I would.

:P
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The choice is not mine to make, regardless of what my choice may or may not be. Likewise, it is not the choice of anyone here outside he who sits as Delegate currently.

From what I have gathered in my one and a half day here is that the former Delegate was inactive for a period of time that left the region in potential jeopardy. Some might even go so far as to claim that could have been treason against this government and the nations of the region. Some.

Whatever the case may be, the simple fact is that a more active personage has taken the reigns of the Delegacy and has secured this region against hostile invasionary forces. If anything, you should be hailing the current Delegate as a Hero of the North. Without his vigilant action who knows what havoc might have befallen the unsuspecting multitudes outside these halls.
 
Well, spin me around! Who would have thought a trusted member of the cabinet would call in Gatesville to grab control of the ban button?
 
Great Bights Mum:
Well, spin me around! Who would have thought a trusted member of the cabinet would call in Gatesville to grab control of the ban button?
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I daresay the Gatesville Militia is simply assisting the sitting Delegate, if it has truly officially deployed here at all, in stabilizing the region and helping to prevent any would-be opportunists from taking the reigns and causing havoc.
 
Great Bights Mum:
You gotta love the bit about "causing havoc." Like we can imagne a worse alternative... oh wait, we can! :duh:
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Yes, I speculate that there are several levels of turmoil above where you stand now, which is why it baffles me that so many would be so unhappy with this turn of events.
 
Pierconium:
Great Bights Mum:
Well, spin me around! Who would have thought a trusted member of the cabinet would call in Gatesville to grab control of the ban button?
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I daresay the Gatesville Militia is simply assisting the sitting Delegate, if it has truly officially deployed here at all, in stabilizing the region and helping to prevent any would-be opportunists from taking the reigns and causing havoc.
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I dare say that it was the Gatesville Militia that enabled a would-be opportunist to take the reigns and cause havoc. :fish:

Oh, I granted you Motion I in your petition and have passed the case to the next justice of the court. Pitty, though, I was fully intent upon making sure that the defendant got a fair hearing under he laws and constitution of TNP.

Incidentally, and I suppose you didn't think of this one at all ( :lol: ) but your theory that the Delegate is not subject to the Government of The North Pacific and that this Government is irrelevant is shot straight to hell because of one tiny little detail. You know what that detail is? And you and your client shot yourselves in the foot. ;)

Oh, I can't keep this one under my hat any longer! It's simply just too funny.

From the Courtroom:

EM:
In light of this, Emperor Matthuis has decided to renege on his earlier declaration and appoints PPI Legal Services to represent him.
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.

This was in reference to his earlier statement to the court:

As this is not the legitimate government of The North Pacific, anything it decides to do is completely irrelevant.
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Essentially, EM first claimed the 'irrelevency' of the Court and by logical extention, the legitimacy and existance of this government.

Therefore, EM, by entering a plea with the court and hiring council in a court of the very government he claims has no relevence, has recognized the legitimacy of this court, this government and its juridiction over himself. :duh:

And, by logical extention, he recognized that he is now subject to this court and government. Which means that he is bound by the Constitution by his own admissions.

So, if your client is found guilty will he accept and obey the penalties set by the court in that event? Or is he is removed by vote of the RA will he obey that vote considering he has recognized the legitimacy of this court by his latest actions and statements?

And here's the irony of it all - you asked a sitting judge who may or may not have been sympathetic to his reasons for doing what he did. And that's the reasoning behind my prodding him with a potential summary judgment - to force into recognizing the legitimacy of this court, this government and to submit himself to the oath he took as a cabinet minister. Worked like a charm. ;)

Think about it.

:D
 
No.

As I stated in my comments here and in our statements to the Court, we recognize the legitimacy of the Court as it pertains to this governmental structure but not as it supposes to pertain to TNP as a whole. The Court is a structure of the Constitutional Govt of TNP, not of The North Pacific itself. The only structures held within The North Pacific itself is the office of Delegate and the daily regional rankings and by extension the representation to the global United Nations. Beyond those constructs there is no existant structure to TNP proper. So far as anyone here knows there could be several constitutional monarchies running concurrently within the region at any given time, established by like-minded nations and run completely different than the one here, however, this government used the office of the Delegacy in order to grant it a certain credibility, i.e. the control of the WFE. However, now that credibility has been lost so this government structure has no more power than any other government structure within the region outside the office of the Delegate.

Think about it. ;)
 
Pierconium:
No.

As I stated in my comments here and in our statements to the Court, we recognize the legitimacy of the Court as it pertains to this governmental structure but not as it supposes to pertain to TNP as a whole. The Court is a structure of the Constitutional Govt of TNP, not of The North Pacific itself. The only structures held within The North Pacific itself is the office of Delegate and the daily regional rankings and by extension the representation to the global United Nations. Beyond those constructs there is no existant structure to TNP proper. So far as anyone here knows there could be several constitutional monarchies running concurrently within the region at any given time, established by like-minded nations and run completely different than the one here, however, this government used the office of the Delegacy in order to grant it a certain credibility, i.e. the control of the WFE. However, now that credibility has been lost so this government structure has no more power than any other government structure within the region outside the office of the Delegate.

Think about it. ;)
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You're parsing words in a manner unbecoming of your intellect. You cannot recognize the legitimacy of this court in any degree without recognizing the government of the region. If this government is irrelevent or not binding over the region, why even bother with the court?

Oh, wait, I know why, if on the minescule chance your client isn't found guilty, you can claim legitimacy over the goverment? And if he does a tyburn jug at the hands of a joury, you can simply ignore the results and do as you please. Hmmmm, the makings of a second rate dictator. Only recognize the legitimacy of the government if it bows to your coercion.

The veery fact that your client recognizes the court and government in any capacity at all indicates that this government has a great deal of credibility. If it didn't, your client would just thumb his nose and tell us all where to get off, which, frankly, if he was a fascist of any real value instead of an inept puppet doing someone else's bidding, he would do as much.

Or does he simply act as a lap-dog for those who put him in power? I think that's the very real answer.

Think about that.
 
Romanoffia:
Pierconium:
No.

As I stated in my comments here and in our statements to the Court, we recognize the legitimacy of the Court as it pertains to this governmental structure but not as it supposes to pertain to TNP as a whole.  The Court is a structure of the Constitutional Govt of TNP, not of The North Pacific itself.  The only structures held within The North Pacific itself is the office of Delegate and the daily regional rankings and by extension the representation to the global United Nations.  Beyond those constructs there is no existant structure to TNP proper.  So far as anyone here knows there could be several constitutional monarchies running concurrently within the region at any given time, established by like-minded nations and run completely different than the one here, however, this government used the office of the Delegacy in order to grant it a certain credibility, i.e. the control of the WFE.  However, now that credibility has been lost so this government structure has no more power than any other government structure within the region outside the office of the Delegate.

Think about it. ;)
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You're parsing words in a manner unbecoming of your intellect. You cannot recognize the legitimacy of this court in any degree without recognizing the government of the region. If this government is irrelevent or not binding over the region, why even bother with the court?

Oh, wait, I know why, if on the minescule chance your client isn't found guilty, you can claim legitimacy over the goverment? And if he does a tyburn jug at the hands of a joury, you can simply ignore the results and do as you please. Hmmmm, the makings of a second rate dictator. Only recognize the legitimacy of the government if it bows to your coercion.

The veery fact that your client recognizes the court and government in any capacity at all indicates that this government has a great deal of credibility. If it didn't, your client would just thumb his nose and tell us all where to get off, which, frankly, if he was a fascist of any real value instead of an inept puppet doing someone else's bidding, he would do as much.

Or does he simply act as a lap-dog for those who put him in power? I think that's the very real answer.

Think about that.
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You are incorrect on several levels. Recognizing the "legitimacy" of the Court as it pertains to this government structure itself does not automatically carry over to recognizing the government as the actual and in force government of the region, even if the government itself chooses to claim it as such. We are simply recognizing the proceedings of the Court as it pertains here, not as it pertains, or doesn't, as the case is, to the region as a whole.

I carry no false hopes in regards to what the outcome of the trial will ultimately be, regardless of which Judge is presiding, but I do have an interest in seeing it to the end. When the expected verdict is passed and the office of the Delegate remains as-is we will see the ultimate strength of this government, correct?
 
Incorrect. He will be seen as a thug and dictator who ejects or bans anyone who might be critical of his inept thugishness and total lack of finesse. He is an rank amateur who is an opportunists who is now being used by the people he tried to use. And that is symply the funniest part about it all.

But, what you don't realized is that EM has just made himself the most hated person in this region and around the globe. He's a scared little boy who has to play with his eject button because he can't handle the truth.

But let me tell you how I really feel. Well, maybe not. EM might have a tantrum and accidentally banject himself in an act of total self-abusement never before seen in the history of the world. :lol:

But seriously, I'm not taking this seriously. I just like pushing his buttons.
 
Incorrect. He will be seen as a thug and dictator who ejects or bans anyone who might be critical of his inept thugishness and total lack of finesse. He is an rank amateur who is an opportunists who is now being used by the people he tried to use. And that is symply the funniest part about it all.
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What is wrong with opportunism?

But, what you don't realized is that EM has just made himself the most hated person in this region and around the globe. He's a scared little boy who has to play with his eject button because he can't handle the truth.
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Sure, I'm young, probably half or even a third of many of the people here, some of you probably have children older than me. But it just makes me more satisfied that right now, I have you all beat.

But let me tell you how I really feel. Well, maybe not. EM might have a tantrum and accidentally banject himself in an act of total self-abusement never before seen in the history of the world.
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Yup.
 
Roman, you need to make a template for these rants of yours!! It must be tiresome typing the same thing out every time a "rogue delegate" appears!!
 
TNP Leader 1: A evil dictator delegate?

TNPL2: Yes! Again!

TNPL1: No, Battlestations! I'll start the trial!

Come on.

Your both ignoring history, game rules and mechanics and the little common sense there is. The GiE died in vain.

Also, you failed to address my last question. If this court finds him Guilty will ADMIN remove him from the Delegate position?
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Of course not. the Lord our Admin will simply say what is always said "Your consti-what-now?" and in 42 weeks someone will realise this was wasted time.

If there was a defined scoring system, does anyone think EM isnt winning by a large margin atm?
 
Regardless, while he was sitting Delegate he had the right to do as he chose in regards to the governing, or lack thereof, within the region and he chose not to support this form and acted accordingly.

Tomorrow morning will most likely see a return of a Delegate that does support this form of government for the region, thus reaffirming this communities role as "chief governing body" because it has the support of the sitting Delegate.
 
Pierconium:
Regardless, while he was sitting Delegate he had the right to do as he chose in regards to the governing, or lack thereof, within the region and he chose not to support this form and acted accordingly.

Tomorrow morning will most likely see a return of a Delegate that does support this form of government for the region, thus reaffirming this communities role as "chief governing body" because it has the support of the sitting Delegate.
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Oh, P, what a cop-out!

Changes the complection of the case now, doesn't it?
 
Romanoffia:
Pierconium:
Regardless, while he was sitting Delegate he had the right to do as he chose in regards to the governing, or lack thereof, within the region and he chose not to support this form and acted accordingly.

Tomorrow morning will most likely see a return of a Delegate that does support this form of government for the region, thus reaffirming this communities role as "chief governing body" because it has the support of the sitting Delegate.
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Oh, P, what a cop-out!

Changes the complection of the case now, doesn't it?
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How so?

The only aspect of the trial it alters is that when the expected verdict is delivered the government, since it has the support of the sitting Delegate, might have recourse to actually inforce the sentence provided the Defendant ever returns to the region.
 
Pierconium:
The only aspect of the trial it alters is that when the expected verdict is delivered the government, since it has the support of the sitting Delegate, might have recourse to actually inforce the sentence provided the Defendant ever returns to the region.
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Incorrect.

Any judicial penalty may extend to access or the limitation of access to this forum. Inasmuch as EM chose to use this forum during the week in question, and posted statements in the UN Delegate subforum, such activities clearly implied his acceptance of these forums as the official forum of TNP before, during and after the week in question.
 
Though of course as Admins have proved there needs be no legal procedure to ban people from the forums. Or indeed from the RA or anything else!
 
Who will be the presiding Justice in this case?! From my understanding, it will be Romanoffia!! In which case, I'd certainly be looking at a replacement due tot he comments on this forum that question his impartiality in this case!!
 
Poltsamaa:
Who will be the presiding Justice in this case?! From my understanding, it will be Romanoffia!! In which case, I'd certainly be looking at a replacement due tot he comments on this forum that question his impartiality in this case!!
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Mr. Gaunt will preside.
 
It seems to me that this discussion arises because as NS players we are subject to a number of different sets of laws.

We are subject to the TOS of the various media in which we post. If we overstep the mark, for example, on IRC then the IRC cops deal with that.

We are subject to the rules of NAtionstates. If we break the game rules of NS, then the game mods deal with that.

There are also the various constitutions, laws and rules of the regions we play in, which are player created.

Ivan is arguing that EM was the "legitimate" delegate of TNP, therefore everything he did as delegate is allowable. In the strict terms of the game rules, he is right.

However, we are not putting EM on trial for breaking the game rules (the mods deal with that). He is on trial here for breaking the consitution and laws of TNP. Laws he swore an oath to obey and uphold. It does not matter whether he was within the game mechanics or not - that is neither our interest nor our juristiction.

The question for this court is whether EM broke OUR rules. His rights under the game rules are irrelevant. We are discussing his rights, and responsibilities under the rules of this region as decided by the regional assembly of this region.
 
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