Peanut Gallery - TNP vs Mesian

There's a distinct difference from insinuating/accusing someone of having a shady past, which is what my impression was of Gaspo's intent vs. deliberately accusing someone of being under orders and exposing a NPIA operation. NOONE except Mesian knew that he was supposedly under orders to go raise hell in the NPO.

Just because you know someone has been an idiot in another region doesn't mean you take it to all the region's they're currently in and wave it around saying don't trust them, don't trust them. But if you think it has an impact on the region they (and you) are in and care about, then it certainly seems right to raise the point.
 
Former English Colony:
There's a distinct difference from insinuating/accusing someone of having a shady past, which is what my impression was of Gaspo's intent vs. deliberately accusing someone of being under orders and exposing a NPIA operation.  NOONE except Mesian knew that he was supposedly under orders to go raise hell in the NPO.

Just because you know someone has been an idiot in another region doesn't mean you take it to all the region's they're currently in and wave it around saying don't trust them, don't trust them.  But if you think it has an impact on the region they (and you) are in and care about, then it certainly seems right to raise the point.
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It does seem right to raise the point. Was the election thread the best place? No I do not believe so. The NPO seems to have taken this personally, and maybe rightfully so. And all I am wondering is why didn't Gaspo ask one of the folks in the TNP government and go to them with his suspicions? It is still psosible to report something that you suspect right? Did he ever do that or was his only action posting a public statement in Mesian's election thread? He obviously cared enough since he posted publically.

If I felt that something shady was going down or someone was doing something that violated our law. but at the time I lacked facts and I cared enough I would have PMed the proper authorities.

And I was not saying that Gaspo was the one who had admitted Mesian into the RA. Gaspo at one point became MOIIA due to your resignation which is all I was saying in one of my previous posts.
 
Joshua:
It does seem right to raise the point. Was the election thread the best place? No I do not believe so. The NPO seems to have taken this personally, and maybe rightfully so. And all I am wondering is why didn't Gaspo ask one of the folks in the TNP government and go to them with his suspicions? It is still psosible to report something that you suspect right? Did he ever do that or was his only action posting a public statement in Mesian's election thread? He obviously cared enough since he posted publically.
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The best place for what? Lots of people knew Mesian was in the NPO, but I doubt anyone suspected that it was due to the NPIA.

Gaspo threw a little mud about Mesian's shady past and Mesian all but spilled the beans in what could be seen as an attempt to protect himself (something he denies, I feel I must add.)

If I felt that something shady was going down or someone was doing something that violated our law. but at the time I lacked facts and I cared enough I would have PMed the proper authorities.

And I was not saying that Gaspo was the one who had admitted Mesian into the RA. Gaspo at one point became MOIIA due to your resignation which is all I was saying in one of my previous posts.
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I think you're looking at this backwards. The only time the suspicion was raised was when Mesian himself implied NPIA activities. The Pacific is an unpopular region at times, and it's not uncommon for people to go make a fool of themselves on their forums. If everyone who has ever done that were brought before a judge then we'd have very few members left.

I feel I must reiterate: the only time serious suspicions were raised was after the question had been asked and Mesian became cagey about giving a proper answer.
 
Perhaps I have a different perspective on what was said and when it occured. And the fact that this only became a case when Mesian reported himself.
 
Joshua:
Perhaps I have a different perspective on what was said and when it occured. And the fact that this only became a case when Mesian reported himself.
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Well, any concrete evidence you have of it being any other way would be appreciated, otherwise it's probably better to deal with the facts in hand.
 
Mr. Knecht, would you please tell me more about your NationStates career outside of The North Pacific?
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Just seems like Gaspo might have had a fair idea of what was going on. But, maybe I am wrong.

I have asked Hersfold to prepare a statement and hopefully I will have that.
 
Blue Wolf II:
You might have to wait a while.
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I realized that, and I do have a rather informal PM from Hersfold at least supporting part of what Mesian has told us. I am waiting and hoping for something more formal to be put together. And I am going to ask Hersfold for permission to submit the parts of his PM that are relevant to this case.
 
Joshua:
Mr. Knecht, would you please tell me more about your NationStates career outside of The North Pacific?
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Just seems like Gaspo might have had a fair idea of what was going on. But, maybe I am wrong.
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I'm sorry, I don't believe you've read anything anyone has said on the matter carefully enough.

Gaspo knew that Mr Knecht was another identity of the player behind Mesian, as I'm sure a good number of people did if they cared to ask. TNP is mainly unconcerned with what a person does with their time when it doesn't hurt TNP — see the number of invaders we have, yourself included.

Gaspo intended to use Mr Knecht's behaviour in the Pacific as an example of why Mesian probably wouldn't be a good MoIIA; how could he have known that Mr Knecht was actually an intelligence puppet of the NPIA and therefore—in terms of Duality—actually Mesian of the North Pacific?
Suspicions to this end (and therefore the controversy) grew to being once Mesian became cagey and stated he could not respond to Gaspo's questions due to (TNP) legal restrictions; the only restrictions we have are those of the NPIA agents... it wasn't hard to put two and two together under the circumstances.

[edit: clarity]
 
I'm just curious...

As part of Byard's "offer" regarding my deposition, he offered me immunity from prosecution. I asked for clarification, and he said I could be prosecuted for exposing information on an NPIA operation, if it indeed turned out to be an NPIA operation. He also said I could be tried for "malfeasance" with regard to not reporting my knowledge of Futur Knecht's actions.

Quite frankly, I find that absolutely ridiculous, and was more than a bit insulted. I felt as though I was being threatened into giving a deposition. I didnt' want to derail the trial with this issue, but I feel it needs to be raised somewhere.

So, to sum it all up...

What the f**k?
 
Now that's interesting. IRL, if a court subpoenas a witness to testify, they have to appear. The witness may be uncooperative or "hostile." He may plead the 5th and decline to answer any questions deemed by either he or his counsel as self-incriminating. He may "have no recollection" of the events about which he is being questioned. But he has to show up at the time and place for which the subpoena is issued.
 
I was not served with a subpoena. I was asked to provide a deposition, and given the behavior of Byard and his approach to the discussion, I declined to provide one.
 
With that in mind am I able to issue subpoenas? Or does it have to be done by the judge or one of the justices?
 
There really isn't anything in the legal code dealing with summoning witnesses to testify. Practically speaking, it's really impossible to compel someone to testify in TNP Court. An online subpoena is infinitely easier to duck than a RL one... which, speaking from RL experience, isn't at all difficult. :ADN:
 
I would like to take this opportunity to violate my personal code of never commenting outside the Court on a trial in which I am participating, in order to address a point that has been raised.

Gaspo, I fear, has completely missed my intent. Depending on your masking, you may or may not have noticed that the issue of the "malfeasance" has been raised, at least in passing, elsewhere - I was merely attempting to assure him that admitting he had known about the issue for some time and not come forth would NOT have any legal backlash. Same thing with the NPIA operational disclosure provision. If it was interpreted as anything but a demonstration of good faith on the part of the prosecution, then I apologize for being unclear. I simply felt that demonstrating that I was more interested in finding out what happened than hunting down people to charge with stuff would help assuage any concerns witnesses might have. Again, I do wish to apologize to Gaspo if I made him at all uncomfortable - this Ministry will NOT intimidate any person, except possibly with its application exam.

And, to put any idle speculation to rest, the Ministry of Justice (i.e. Me) has no intent, and never has had any intent, of pursuing the charges to which I referred. But ignoring the possibility that someone else would say to themselves -

Hurgle blaagh - this ruling indicates Gaspo knew about it and should hang by his toenails hurr hurr.
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is silly, especially in the somewhat polarized climate nowadays. My SOLE purpose was pointing out that the Ministry would not pursue any such charges that may be pressed by any member of the Region as a result of his testimony.

So, in closing, mea maxima culpa. You may return to your armchair litigating.


EDIT - that was one long-assed sentence. Let's get a comma in there so people can read it. Also, we need to finish all of our sentences.
 
Thank you for the clarification, Byard. No apology was necessary; miscommunication on both sides I believe.

Regardless, the issue is sorted now. I will reconsider giving a deposition.
 
Great Bights Mum:
There really isn't anything in the legal code dealing with summoning witnesses to testify. Practically speaking, it's really impossible to compel someone to testify in TNP Court. An online subpoena is infinitely easier to duck than a RL one... which, speaking from RL experience, isn't at all difficult. :ADN:
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Actually, that isn't the case, GBM.

There are several different elements of the Constitution and the Legal Code that present a basis for the Court to issue an order to anyone with regional assembly status to appear to give testimony in preparation for trial. Take a look at the RA oath (and the oath of office in Law 1), the provisions of Law 4, and the provisions of Article V of the Constitution.

The bottom line is that a refusal by a member of the RA to obey the lawful order of the Court to give testimony in preparation for trial would be grounds for sanctions imposed by the Court. It could also be grounds for prosecution on criminal charges or for impeachment thereafter.
 
IF you want to call people hardlinders in the name of democracy, liberty, and the rule of law, then so be it.
At least I can say absolutely and without any mental reservation or evaision that my first loyalty has always been to The North Pacific, without any hint of a conflict, unlike some i could name.
So do not push me on it.
 
Grosse I see nothing in Article V of our constitution that supports what you have said. I alos see nothing under TNP legal code 4 that supports the claim and in regards to Law 1 I see no where in the oath of office that if you are asked to submit a deposition you must do so.

And I feel this statement made by you is very loosely supported by our laws:

The bottom line is that a refusal by a member of the RA to obey the lawful order of the Court to give testimony in preparation for trial would be grounds for sanctions imposed by the Court. It could also be grounds for prosecution on criminal charges or for impeachment thereafter.
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Maybe I fail to have any understanding of our legal code and constitution.

IF you want to call people hardlinders in the name of democracy, liberty, and the rule of law, then so be it.
At least I can say absolutely and without any mental reservation or evaision that my first loyalty has always been to The North Pacific, without any hint of a conflict, unlike some i could name.
So do not push me on it.
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Democracy and liberty? I would liketo think this region and the folks care about these ideals. But, the NPIA and the fact they far exceeded any reasonable scope in regards to how they should conduct themselves is what caused this mess. And the NPIA did not arrive at this point all by themselves either.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
IF you want to call people hardlinders in the name of democracy, liberty, and the rule of law, then so be it.
At least I can say absolutely and without any mental reservation or evaision that my first loyalty has always been to The North Pacific, without any hint of a conflict, unlike some i could name.
So do not push me on it.
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What about the IDU? How do we know that your turning TNP into a sprawling bureaucracy was not some secret plan by them?

Shall we play the "How far can we push Grosse" game some more?
 
Even if the court does have the perogative to compel testimony, it's practically unenforcible. You can't make someone play, if they don't want to. ;)

I'm glad to see Gaspo has agreed to testify.
 
I've never hidden that I have puppets in the IDU, including.They're there so I can participate within the UN resolutions game without having to worry about defenders or invaders or anything else that would interfere.
The IDU was founded by natives of The North Pacific, who were ejected without cause or reason during Great Bight, and who were and are interested in the UN as such. I was invited there when I had a resolution reach quorum (in my first month in the game, no less) and there was a serious concern that the survival of the queued resolution would be affected if my UN nation were ejected while waiting for the proposal to go to the floor. (It was a legitimate concern, and at that time,no one knew for sure what the final answer would be, and that means prudence was the smarter course. I have left my UN there continuously ever since for that reason.
Since the IDU-TNP relationship, which predates my presence in the game, btw, is totally UN-activity focused there's no possibility of conflict.
But those with ties to the NPO, the Lexicon, and so forth, would be much harder pressed to say the same thing, including yourself Lord Valentine. So let's see if you are willing to disclose all of your potential conflicts of loyalty with other regions, and see if you can affirm without reservation your first and primary loyalty is to Tne Horth Pacific.
 
I agree with Grosse. You TNPers absolutely should, without question remove the unloyal filth from your region. Danger lurks around every corner as long as you leave your rules so lax! You must insist that all citizens have UN status and ensure that they are endorsing your delegate. It is the only way to make sure only the most loyal remain in your pure and beloved region.

Purge the unloyal! They threaten your very existence. Do it for the children!

I suggest a program of progressive legislation which restricts the type of position each player can hold in any secondary region. This will help ensure their first loyalty is always to TNP. I'm sure that until your sceintists can come up with a way to physically measure loyalty, you can quickly devise a temporary Loyalty Test to be given to any member who appears to be in need of re-education.

This region is among the greatest in NS. You have lingered here among the unloyal filth long enough. Rise up to the task of cleaning up your region, now. Before the enemy within destroys you!

[This message brought to you by Fear Monger Inc. Serving your political needs since the beginning of time]
 
Grosse:
So let's see if you are willing to disclose all of your potential conflicts of loyalty with other regions, and see if you can affirm without reservation your first and primary loyalty is to Tne Horth Pacific
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All Hail Tne Horth Pacific! Purge the Unclean! :eyeroll:
 
Quite so, Madam Senator, indeed, the constitution is being used as a weapon by the disloyal inhabitants of TNP. It must be transformed into a firm hand of iron to crush the disruptive elements. But how deep does this disloyalty run? As a measure of regional security and the future of democracy and regional liberty, the government should be put into the hands of loyal TNPacificans - the true harbourers of freedom. Only then can you ensure the continuing prosperity and non-stop innovation of TNP.
 
I am Lord Valentine of Vitrionia, my nation controls a minor territory in a small region known as Futaba Aoi. My allegience and sole active role is as Deputy MoIIA in the North Pacific.

I will provide my IP addresses and many emails if you wish to follow this up, but I demand an apology for the slight against my honour. You stupid man, you think you can scare people into agreeing with you?

The wolves are not at the door, I'm afraid, we've breed them and let them run loose in our own region.
 
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