Peanut Gallery - TNP vs Mesian

Great Bights Mum

Great Bights Mum

Grande Dame
-
-
-
-
Well folks, we have an indictment. Apparently the MOJ felt there was enough evidence to warrant a trial. Here are the charges:

COURT OF THE NORTH PACIFIC

THE NORTH PACIFIC

-V.-

MESIAN (Defendant)




The Ministry of Justice, on behalf the North Pacific, charges -


1.) That on or about the Twenty-Second day of October, 2006, the Defendant did attempt to infiltrate, through the use of puppet nations and subterfuge, the New Pacific Order, recgonized government of the region The Pacific, with the intent of providing material support and comfort to the region of Supreme Union, at that time participating in military hostilities with the region of The Pacific.

2.) At no time relevant to this Indictment was the Defendant assigned or instructed to operate within the jurisdiction of the New Pacific Order as part of any legally-authorized North Pacific Army or North Pacific Intelligence Agency posting.

3.)The Defendant did, knowingly, willfully, and by his own admission, commit acts in violation of Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 2 of the Constitution of the North Pacific, to wit:


Each member Nation shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any other nation or region in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific.
Click to expand...


Filed this Eighth day of May, 2007;

(signed)

- Byardkuria
Attorney General of the North Pacific
Click to expand...

I have a few questions. Could Mesian argue duality for his puppet nation? If not, why not? In what way is this different from FL's duality?

The first claim in the charges, regarding Mesians actions with his TP puppet nation doen't really clarify how those actions were illegal. Having a puppet in another region? Having a secret puppet in another region? Joining the government in another region? Participating in the government of another region with a secret puppet? Acting like a jerk in another region? Providing material support and comfort to a region which is under attack? Which of those things is it illegal for TNP citizens to do?

The second point, that Mesian acted alone, also presents its share of problems. If the prosecution can show that Mesian committed a crime, but the defense argues that it was an NPIA operation, then is Mesian responsible for those actions? In the absence of evidence in the form of transcripts from the period in question, will the judge admit depositions into evidence? Does testimony gathered in a deposition have the same weight as actual records of posts, PMs or chat logs?

The third point charges Mesian with threatening to use or using force against TP's territorial integrity or political independence. I am interested to see how the MOJ shows that TP's territorial integrity or political independence was threatened. What impact could those arguments have on the many nations who are involved in multiple regions?

There are quite a few topics of interest here. Discuss away.
 
Another question....

why is the charge in (1) a crime here in TNP? I can see it being a prosecutable offence in the Pacific, but why is a nation infiltrating the Pacific a charge here in the North Pacific? I do not see where a crime has been committed here.

Our embassy agreement with the pacific does not contain clauses allowing for crimes committed in the NPO to be tried over here, nor for NPO laws to be enforcable in this region.
 
Are there actually three charges or only one charge summed up with point 3?

Because if there are three charges, I think those of us in the peanut gallery would appreciate it if you, Byard, could point out violations of the Legal Code and Constitution you claim that Mesian had committed in points 1 and 2. Sorta like what you did with point 3 with the constitutional citation.
 
The way I read it, the actions in section 1 are allegedly in violation of the law cited in section 3. I'm glad I don't have to spell out exactly how 1 and 2 adds up to 3. The burden of proof is on the prosecution.
 
I don't really see how what Mesian did broke the Constitution, yes he acted deliberately idiotic and heretical but unless Byard manages to somehow prove that this could have led to other members being convinced by his deliberately noobish rants, which might have led to a rebellion that would have never worked.

Seems very flimsy to me.
 
Couple of more questions:

Was Gaspo bordering on an abuse of duality problem when he used his knowledge from TP/NPO to challenge Mesian in the campaign thread Mesian had during the election?

Second, How much of this is even subject to prosecution under the statute of limitation (90 days after the acts that were committed)? The operation was conducted in November, and the 90 day period would have ened in February.
 
Grosseschnauzer:
Couple of more questions:

Was Gaspo bordering on an abuse of duality problem when he used his knowledge from TP/NPO to challenge Mesian in the campaign thread Mesian had during the election?

Second, How much of this is even subject to prosecution under the statute of limitation (90 days after the acts that were committed)? The operation was conducted in November, and the 90 day period would have ened in February.
Click to expand...
Regarding Gaspo's revelations, I suppose an argument could be made that a breach of duality renders certain evidence inadmissable. But since Mesian has made so many public statements about the incident, I think it would have to be a pretty compelling argument before the judge would declare the evidence inadmissable.

As for the second question, the statute of limitations clock starts ticking on the date TNP becomes aware of a crime, not necessarily the date it was committed.
 
Personally, I'm not all that sure that there was a breach of duality. It did not appear to me that Gaspo was using his IP data from many different sources to oust a NPIA op. Seemed like he simply wanted Mesian to account for acting like an ass in the NPO under a different persona. It appeared to me that he was as surprised as anyone at Mesian's answers.
 
Mesian's puppet was common knowledge if you travel in the right circles. It's hardly a breach of duality.

Personally, I don't agree with these charges. IMO the only thing Mesian did wrong legally was implicate TNP in his affairs.
 
Um, dont get me wrong on anything but from my standpoint, what I've read so far, ask yourself these question's.

"Do you think Mesian ever intended for this to get out? It's done great things for his career aspects, hasn't it?"

"What is happening now, is TNP making a scapegoat out of Mesian for the NPO or are we just using him to admitingly say that he's being tried for something that should have already been resolved way before he was in TNP?"

Also when you all talk about the statute of limitations, you can talk about the fact that obviously Gaspo and others (no offense) have admitted having prior knowledge of Mesians puppets, long before the incident, meaning that the whole 'Accural' thing does not apply.

I know this is quite a lot but just ponder a little on these accusation's and think to yourself: "Why are we discussing an issue which we should have already taken care of and/or not worry so much about it and just move on to more important issues like; Reporting Spam, Keeping people interested in NS, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, HAVING FUN!."

~Lt. Colonel Galapagos Isle
North Pacific Army
 
Mesian has indicated that Gaspo has known for more than a month of Mesians dual indentity and possibility that he was an NPIA operative. Apparently they do full scans over there of folks who newly register. As MOIIA of TNP if he had any supcion of a TNP member committing a crime he was obligated under TNP Law #11 to do so, and since he failed to do so. And it disturbs me that Gaspo did not make mention of this on the TNP forum until the election season ahd begun. Although I do wonder given they do full scansat the NPO forum and that supposedly Mesian started his infiltration back in October 2006 it seems reasonable that folks knew of his indentity for more then 6 months. Which potentially folks knew of the possible operation much longer then has been admitted, and makes me even more suspicious as to why no one took action until the election season had begun.

Personally, I'm not all that sure that there was a breach of duality. It did not appear to me that Gaspo was using his IP data from many different sources to oust a NPIA op. Seemed like he simply wanted Mesian to account for acting like an ass in the NPO under a different persona. It appeared to me that he was as surprised as anyone at Mesian's answers.
Click to expand...

I believe the reason Gaspo knew was because of the IP scans done over at the NPO forum. And it seems this knowledge carried over to the TNP forum when Gaspo made certain comments in Mesian's election thread. I strongly feel this hurts any credibility that Gaspo has had in regards to being a potential witness in this case.

And I would like to remind folks that there is no paper trail or any documents in regards to Mesian's operation in NPO. As Hersfold stated he deleted all documents relating to NS.

I am not really sure how there is enough evidence to continue with this case.

One more point:

2.) At no time relevant to this Indictment was the Defendant assigned or instructed to operate within the jurisdiction of the New Pacific Order as part of any legally-authorized North Pacific Army or North Pacific Intelligence Agency posting.
Click to expand...

I have a PM from hersfold that confirms that hersfold had asked Mesian to infiltrate the NPO forum.
 
Joshua:
I have a PM from hersfold that confirms that hersfold had asked Mesian to infiltrate the NPO forum.
Click to expand...
I believe that I speak for everyone whaen I say please bring that forward as evidence.

I doubt this, as i dont believe hers would knowingly breach our regions' agreement like that.
 
Joshua:
Mesian has indicated that Gaspo has known for more than a month of Mesians dual indentity and possibility that he was an NPIA operative. Apparently they do full scans over there of folks who newly register. As MOIIA of TNP if he had any supcion of a TNP member committing a crime he was obligated under TNP Law #11 to do so, and since he failed to do so. And it disturbs me that Gaspo did not make mention of this on the TNP forum until the election season ahd begun. Although I do wonder given they do full scansat the NPO forum and that supposedly Mesian started his infiltration back in October 2006 it seems reasonable that folks knew of his indentity for more then 6 months. Which potentially folks knew of the possible operation much longer then has been admitted, and makes me even more suspicious as to why no one took action until the election season had begun.
Click to expand...
Sorry to correct your history, but *I* was the one that admitted Mesian to the RA. Gaspo had nothing to do with it. And I knew nothing about Mesian's other identities until Gaspo posted about it in Mesian's election thread.
 
Gaspo might have suspected it, but he could not prove it which is why I assume he did not bring attention to that.

From what I gathered from reading the thread, Gaspo intended to ask Mesian some hard questions and cast doubt on his character, which is fair game in most elections I've been part of. I could have found out about Mesian if I'd asked around, and I assume anyone else with reasonable contacts could have too, so we can hardly assume that this was a breach of duality.

If Hersfold actually ordered Mesian into the Pacific, then the current NPIA director should be looking at dealing with Mesian for this breach of trust. We should also prepair an apology to the NPO about his actions. Hersfold has been remarkably quiet though, and I find it troubling that he would only mention this in a PM to you Josh.
 
Gaspo might have suspected it, but he could not prove it which is why I assume he did not bring attention to that.
Click to expand...
Thats why we have the courts, that is why we have the MoIIA. To investigate and bring evidence forward, and if what you say is true, and those in 'the right circles' had knowledge of such things, evidence would not be hard to come by, nor collate in a way which would reflect certian peoples viewpoints or assumptions.

As a further note in the event the move to dismiss is denied, I am in fact retired from NationStates. When I retired, all PM's in my message folders were deleted. I will therefore have a very difficult time either verifying or denying either side of the events that are being alleged.
Click to expand...

As stated by Hersfold in the TNP vs. Mesian thread. If you wish to discuss a case, I would suggest you actually read the real thread (you know, the actual trial) Vitrionia before implying things about other members.

Hersfold has been remarkably quiet though, and I find it troubling that he would only mention this in a PM to you Josh.
Click to expand...

For those of you who wish to discuss this issue, i would suggest reading this thread first, then at least you have some idea about what you are talking about.

Keep it Real

Mesian
 
Apparently they do full scans over there [the NPO] of folks who newly register.
Click to expand...
Please tell us all how you "know" this? I fail to see how you, Joshua, an NPO IP banned person yourself, can promote such conjecture and still expect those of us with the necessary knowledge to sit and silently watch. In short: You don't know what you are talking about.

As MOIIA of TNP if he had any supcion of a TNP member committing a crime he was obligated under TNP Law #11 to do so, and since he failed to do so.
Click to expand...
If suspicion is all one needs to bring formal charges in TNP, I have been mislead for a long time about the nature of the region's laws. However, calling a [IC] person's character into question is nad always has been fair play in "democratic" politics.

And it disturbs me that Gaspo did not make mention of this on the TNP forum until the election season ahd begun.
Click to expand...
See politics 101

Although I do wonder given they do full scans at the NPO forum and that supposedly Mesian started his infiltration back in October 2006 it seems reasonable that folks knew of his indentity for more then 6 months.
Click to expand...

You start off by talking about something you have no first hand knowledge of and then fail to understand or define what you mean by "folks." Do your homework before speaking of things you know nothing of. The internal affairs of the NPO are irrelevant (and unknown by you) here. The only reason I'm even commenting is because you insist on promoting your false assumtions of the internal affairs of the NPO.

Deflecting attention away from the crime (be it Mesian's crime or the NPIA's crime) and on to the person (Gaspo) who's comment brought about a revelation is a classic defense, but not one highly thought of by most.

I believe the reason Gaspo knew was because of the IP scans done over at the NPO forum. And it seems this knowledge carried over to the TNP forum when Gaspo made certain comments in Mesian's election thread. I strongly feel this hurts any credibility that Gaspo has had in regards to being a potential witness in this case.
Click to expand...

Contrary to popular media myth, repeating something over and over does not make it true.

My best advice is to concentrate on finding out if you can prove or at least reasonably explain that Mesian was ordered to infiltrate, thus transferring the problem to the gov't and freeing Mesian. Then help the gov't establish oversight and re-organize the NPIA, should you succeed. The tangent of trying to disparage Gaspo is working against your client, not for your client.
 
Mesian:
As stated by Hersfold in the TNP vs. Mesian thread. If you wish to discuss a case, I would suggest you actually read the real thread (you know, the actual trial) Vitrionia before implying things about other members.
Click to expand...
Shush criminal; don't make me fetch my gun.

Okay, so I missed that. I take back my comment about Hersfold being quiet.
 
Considering guns are either towed or mounted on ships, i'd be ducking because it would be a fricken big nerf dart :P
 
We all more or less knew the operation for what it was, he just gave the details. If I were PM I would give him a medal for exposing such stupidity on the part of the NPIA. Fact of the matter is we should not be pulling missions which undermined the security of our supposed allies.
 
Blue Wolf II:
Fact of the matter is we should not be pulling missions which undermined the security of our supposed allies.
Click to expand...
Do you think the MOJ can prove the security of the Pacific was undermined? Will it be enough to show intent? Does it matter whether the region in question is an ally of ours? If so, how does one define an ally? Does there need to be a formal agreement?

Whew, the questions keep coming!
 
Great Bights Mum:
Do you think the MOJ can prove the security of the Pacific was undermined?
Click to expand...
We'd have to take the Pacific's word for it, but the constitution says:

'2) Each member Nation shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any other nation or region in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution of The North Pacific.'

Will it be enough to show intent?
Click to expand...
*shrugs* The Judge would have to decide, IMO. I wouldn't want to be ruling over this one.

Does it matter whether the region in question is an ally of ours? If so, how does one define an ally? Does there need to be a formal agreement?
Click to expand...
Strictly, allies are people we have signed a treaty of alliance with, but the term generally means anyone we have good relations with who isn't an enemy. I've always been of the opinion that by-and-large, the Pacific regions are all allies.
 
Haor Chall:
Mesian, basically, you are an idiot. Personally I think you should be on trial for treason.
Click to expand...
What the hell is this "treason" you speak of? :lol:

Really, you can only try him for breaking the specific rule, e.g. giving details about an NPIA op.

As far as these charges go, well... <_<
 
Haor Chall:
Not on about that. He should be on trial for treason for bringing this out into the open as an NPIA op.
Click to expand...
In his defense Gaspo was the one who started questioning him and possibly shedding light on this op. It was done publically as you know in Mesian's election thread. I am not justifying Mesian's sharing of classified information on an NPIA op, but Hersfold was no longer director and had quit NS and Tresville is MIA. And more then likely I might have done the samething if my integrity was being questioned in my election thread and I knew my superior was MIA.

And I also feel that Gaspo's motives should be questioned. If he knew for so long why did he wait? And why do it in the election thread? That makes it seem like Gaspo was trying to discredit Mesian rather then showing an interest in justice. I personally feel like if Gaspo felt that Mesian committed a crime and had harmed the NPO and hurt TNP's image he would have reported it the appropriate authorities rather then posting publically in an election thread. And Gaspo was MOIIA oFf TNP.

And in regards to what an ally is considered, I consider an ally to be several things. You may have an alliance or not, to my knowledge such an alliance is lacking between us and the NPO. Second an ally is typically considered a friend and they help each other out. Do members of TNP feel this way about the NPO?
 
Joshua:
And I also feel that Gaspo's motives should be questioned. If he knew for so long why did he wait? And why do it in the election thread? That makes it seem like Gaspo was trying to discredit Mesian rather then showing an interest in justice.
Click to expand...
I think that's exactly what Gaspo was trying to do. How was he to know the full extent of Mesian or TNP's involvement though? Not even we knew that it was an NPIA op until Mesian blurted it out.
 
Lord Valentine:
Joshua:
And I also feel that Gaspo's motives should be questioned. If he knew for so long why did he wait? And why do it in the election thread? That makes it seem like Gaspo was trying to discredit Mesian rather then showing an interest in justice.
Click to expand...
I think that's exactly what Gaspo was trying to do. How was he to know the full extent of Mesian or TNP's involvement though? Not even we knew that it was an NPIA op until Mesian blurted it out.
Click to expand...
Are you saying Gaspo was trying to discredit Mesian?
 
It was an election campaign: I'd find it hard to believe that he wasn't trying to gain the upper-hand by asking him difficult questions.

This is politics after all; skeletons in closets are the number one cause of election woes.
 
Lord Valentine:
It was an election campaign: I'd find it hard to believe that he wasn't trying to gain the upper-hand by asking him difficult questions.

This is politics after all; skeletons in closets are the number one cause of election woes.
Click to expand...
I am fine with a little mudslinging (depends on the type and how far one goes with it) and you need an upperhand in politics of course.

My main point with this has been in folks feel so strongly about it. Why was it not brought to the proper folks sooner? Why didn't Gaspo go to the MOJ or whoever to find out more information and what needed to be done? I only ask because folks seem to feel strongly about this NOW, but didn't seem that way a few weeks ago.

We all more or less knew the operation for what it was, he just gave the details. If I were PM I would give him a medal for exposing such stupidity on the part of the NPIA. Fact of the matter is we should not be pulling missions which undermined the security of our supposed allies.
Click to expand...

Blue Wolf posted that many folks apparently knew of Mesian's mission in the NPO for sometime granted they lacked many of the details, but they knew the general information. To me it seems odd that this is now being made into a case so long after the fact of it happening.
 
Joshua:
My main point with this has been in folks feel so strongly about it. Why was it not brought to the proper folks sooner? Why didn't Gaspo go to the MOJ or whoever to find out more information and what needed to be done? I only ask because folks seem to feel strongly about this NOW, but didn't seem that way a few weeks ago.
Click to expand...
Because it's just been brought to the public's attention, perhaps?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top