Scottish Nationalists win elections

Upper Kirby

Upper Kirby

TNPer
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/scotland/default.stm

SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT RESULTS
Party Const Regn +/- Tot
SNP 21 26 +20 47
LAB 37 9 -4 46
CON 4 13 -1 17
LD 11 5 -1 16
Others 0 3 -14 3

If the table does not make sense, it is also posted on that link along with sense-making-of literature. Essentially, Labour (LAB) lost all over the UK and the Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) rogered them silly. The sticky thicket is trying to form a coalition to get 65+ votes for a majority, which may be a problem. If it ain't then the SNP promises a referendum on Scottish independence, which would be exciting.
 
I heard the referendum would be held sometime by 2010. I am curious as to how folks who are either British or Scottish feel about this. It would be interesting to hear view points on this landmark issue. :w00t:
 
Hmmm. Why was there such a reaction for the SNP? Is the independence movement that strong in Scotland? And wow, did they clean up against smaller parties... o_O
 
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Declaration o Calton Hill

We the unnersigned ca' for an unthirlt Scots republic biggit on the preenciples o leeberty, evenlyness, diversity an solidarity.

Thir preenciples can niver be pitten intae practice while Scotland bydes subordinate tae the hierarchical an conter-democratic institutes o the Breetish State.

We threap that thir preenciples can be brocht aboot bi a freely waled Scots govrenment wi fou owerance o Scotland's incommins.

We threap that the richt tae sel-determination is an intrinsic richt, no a boon or obleegement tae be grantit tae us aither bi the Croun or the Breetish State.

We threap that seignourie bydes wi the fowk an vou tae fecht for the richt tae govren oorsels for the common weel o a' thaim that bydes in Scotland the day, the morn an in the futur.

The govrenment o a kintra is the servant o the fowk, no the maister o the fowk.

We threap that a written Constitution sall warrand, unner the law, a'bodie's richt tae freely vote, speak an forgaither; an sall warrand the richt o fowk tae preevacy an pertection, an tae see wittins anent a' thair Govrenment's daeins.

We vou tae fecht for the pouer tae refuise tae send oor sons an dochters tae kill an dee in unjuist weirs in fremmit launds.

We vou tae fecht for the pouer tae bainish nuclear wappens o mass destruction frae oor laund.

We vou tae fecht for the pouer tae acquire or restrict the uiss o guids, gear or launds controlt bi indiveeduals, corporations or govrenments frae ayont Scotland's mairches.

We vou tae fecht for the pouer tae mak oor depopulate laund intae a hine for thaim that's fleein faimin an persecution.

We vou tae fecht for the pouer tae big a mair equal society, free o puirtith, throu the redistribution o oor great walth.

We sweir tae ca' agin a' kin kind o naitional chauvinism, imperialism an racism.

We sweir tae ca' agin a' kin kind o discreemination on the grunds o gender, ethnic oreegin, releegion, place o birth, age, disabeelity, sexuality or leid.

Oor ettle is an unthirlt Scots Republic, that fowk can byde in wi deegnity an wi sel-respect, lowse frae explytation, takkin up the responsibeelities o lowse weemen an men.

An unthirlt Scots republic will negotiate freely an as an equal wi govrenments o ither launds.

Oor ettle isna tae big sinderin wa's, but tae big an ootby-leukin Scotland that'll gie oot the haund o freendship tae a' the fowk o the warld.

We vou tae conteena the fecht for a lowse, democratic Scots republic for as lang's it micht tak.

The fecht is for freedom.
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You'd better hope the EU lets you in if you get independence. Otherwise, it'll be a pain in the backside for all the Scots living in England.
 
If Scotland votes for independence, that's their decision and no one else can deny them that. Personally an independent Scotland sounds really cool.

Also I would have dual nationality :D
 
I wouldn't lose any sleep over Scotland splitting off from the Union, if they don't want to stay then it seems pointless to keep them.

I would point out however that I think the election result has more to do with a disatisfaction with Labour and a general dislike of the Tories, so Scottish voters had little alternative other than the SNP.
 
Personally, I think the whole independence thing is idiotic. I fail to see any benefit for anyone concerned.

As EM said, the SNP's strong showing is more about them being the only real alternative in Scotland to Labour, than an nationalistic drive for independence. And as all the major parties have refused to form a coalition with the SNP if a referendum is a condition of it, I doubt the SNP will be in a position to push for it this term, especially as most voters have more pressing concerns.

I'll be interested to see if the SNP are any good in a governing role, they've always struck me as being all mouth and no trousers...
 
Vrtbovska Zahrada:
For the Scottish, the EU should appear quite like a saviour.
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But, as my Scottish friend reminded me yesterday, certain EU members such as Spain would probably vote against Scotland joining for political reasons, and even then it could be a couple of years before the vote even happened. In that time, Scotland would have to completely reform its political and legislative structures in-line with a new republic and the result would be a country whose political clout and overall economy is severely diminished.

There is also the question of a border policy between the UK (or what remains of it) and Scotland. In the grey area between act of independence and the possible entry into the EU, the UK would not have to honour any open border policy with Scotland. This would make things slightly difficult for all those Scots working in London and Cardiff, wouldn't it.

Overall, the UK works for all it's member countries. I find the calls for independence ones of pure ego, than common sense, as such a move would lower the quality of life in its member-state dramatically. Even in Europe, money cannot be grown in an orchard.
 
What LV said.

And when it comes to it I dont think the Scots would vote for independence

On another note..if it did happen, and Gordy Borwn ( A scot) is still PM...what then?
 
*Is not-so-randomly reminded of that francophone province that since their incorporation into BNA and Canada have been advocating separation, via either democratic or terroristic means...*
 
Rgw SNP are socialists, but any port in a storm for Scottish independence!

"Dun Uistien!" - Clan Morrison :winner:
 
Seems the SNP has backed away from independence to hold to to their coalition. They have, however, got rid of the tolls on some bridges.
 
Lord Valentine:
Seems the SNP has backed away from independence to hold to to their coalition. They have, however, got rid of the tolls on some bridges.
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Classic tactic to seem to moderate themselves, much like the Parti Quebecois in Canada. Their main goal is ultimately separation but every election it's the tax-cut, healthcare, and education staples.
 
*Is not so very randomly reminded of Catalunya, País Vasco, Corsica, Northern Cyprus, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, Kosova, Montenegro, Vojvodina, Transdnistria, and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia, Greenland, Ahvenanmaa, Slovakia, Taiwan, Tibet, the Sri Lanki Tamiles, Banda Aceh, Eritrea, Northern Ivory Coast, the Casamance-strip, Kurdistan, Nagorno-Karabach, Nachichevan, the Westbank. Etc.*
 
mr_sniffles:
Lord Valentine:
Seems the SNP has backed away from independence to hold to to their coalition. They have, however, got rid of the tolls on some bridges.
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Classic tactic to seem to moderate themselves, much like the Parti Quebecois in Canada. Their main goal is ultimately separation but every election it's the tax-cut, healthcare, and education staples.
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Ah, but Scottish separation is such a lofty goal. I, for one, certainly hope we don't see the day that the kingdom is divided.
 
Vrtbovska Zahrada:
*Is not so very randomly reminded of Catalunya, País Vasco, Corsica, Northern Cyprus, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, Kosova, Montenegro, Vojvodina, Transdnistria, and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia, Greenland, Ahvenanmaa, Slovakia, Taiwan, Tibet, the Sri Lanki Tamiles, Banda Aceh, Eritrea, Northern Ivory Coast, the Casamance-strip, Kurdistan, Nagorno-Karabach, Nachichevan, the Westbank. Etc.*
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I meant using the electioneering platform as a distraction to their main goal of separation, plus we're talking about non-violent political parties engaging the political system. You know the kind without the suicide bombings and death threats.
 
Are you saying that all of these...uhm...territories have no political scene who fights for independence without violence?
But every single one of them has!

It is clear that in some very troubled regions (the West Bank), the political parties are unfortunately often intertwined with, or linked to, militant, armed groups who try to break loose a war, even a civil war, whenever they can. And that it seems sometimes that the independence movements there have nothing to offer than violence for the other part (the state which they try to quit). But there are nevertheless people who work to achieve their goal (independence and freedom) with peaceful means (Just like in Scotland. Or in Québec.). Even though, sadly, they are much less known in the West than their brutal militant compatriots.

The organisation in a state such as Palestine is on a level...well...a very low level, and I think it should be clear that, for example, Ismail Haniye, the Palestinian ex-Prime Minister and Hamas member, would have had difficulties in giving orders to take miltary action, whether he would have wanted that or not.
I'm not saying that he was a good Prime Minister. I'm just trying to show that you can't just lump all of the Palestinian resistance together, there are always different trends within one organisation...
 
Not sure if Josh's comment was directed at me or at the Lord but Quebec during the 60's were actually involved in many terrorist actions, much like the Basque. It wasn't until the October Crisis of 1970, when even the most hardline separatists became so disgusted over the murders and kidnappings that they saw peaceful engagement within the political system as the only force. To this day, the Parti Quebecois have been in power for about 50% of the last two and half decades. Two referendums later, we still have a united Canada.

For every West Bank, there's the former Soviet States like Estonia. For every Balkan affair, there's Swaziland. Switzerland's decentralized system of Cantons in a country of 8 official languages proves that cultures can get along as long as rational debate prevails over jingoistic passion.

As for the rest, JFK said it best: "“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.”
 
mr_sniffles:
For every West Bank, there's the former Soviet States like Estonia. For every Balkan affair, there's Swaziland. Switzerland's decentralized system of Cantons in a country of 8 official languages proves that cultures can get along as long as rational debate prevails over jingoistic passion.
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I am not sure what exactly do you wanted to tell us with that?

Of course, there are countries in which it (multiethnic/multilingual populations living together) works quite well, but do you mean then that any further independence movements should not be accepted?

If a people want independence, be it so! In my opinion, that is.
And how it worked out nicely in former Czechoslovakia! ^_^


Ohhh, and sorry for being pedantic, but the thing with the 8 official languages is a myth, more or less. Actually, you can speak of three (German, French and Italian), because all those who speak Rheto-Roman can speak German, too. :P
 
*Is not so very randomly reminded of Catalunya, País Vasco, Corsica, Northern Cyprus, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, Kosova, Montenegro, Vojvodina, Transdnistria, and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia, Greenland, Ahvenanmaa, Slovakia, Taiwan, Tibet, the Sri Lanki Tamiles, Banda Aceh, Eritrea, Northern Ivory Coast, the Casamance-strip, Kurdistan, Nagorno-Karabach, Nachichevan, the Westbank. Etc.*
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I'm sorry I think we got our wires crossed but I was stating that separation movements only work, when they work within the political system. The JFK quote only pushes the idea that if they're not welcomed into the political debate then they'll do other things to get noticed :eyes roll:

Obviously I support independence if a clear majority supports independence and works at it peacefully. But first are they valid in the idea that if they would be better off needing a passport just to cross from the Scotland to England, how about a different currency, how about their status in the EU? Or the mess of now having to reorganize the entire public sector away from the policies mandated by Great Britain.

Another recent spat in the separation debate in Canada is "what is a clear majority?" 50.0001%? Our last separation referendum (95) was called "no by a whisker." (50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes")

As for multi-cultural areas, not only is Canada quite multi-cultural but if Canada can be divisible by nationality; 3/4 of the land mass to the north of Quebec is dominated by Cree natives and their most populous city (Montreal) is by majority bi-lingual and the base of hardline federalists.

What I'm trying to say is that is Scotland ready for true indepedence in the true manner of the word or are they just posturing over some ungrateful yet dreadfully common mood that "those idiots in the distant capital, just don't get them?" It may just be nationalistic posturing or it may just a truer movement to a system of governance that's closer to the people. (Post-left-Anarchism speaking, don't ask.)
 
Most of the Scottish people I've discussed this with are firmly against the breaking of the union.

In fact, the people who seem to be most in favour of it are Americans with supposed Scottish heritage. Braveheart gave a lot of people the wrong idea, it seems.
 
I'm sorry I think we got our wires crossed but I was stating that separation movements only work, when they work within the political system.
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*Sniff*, that's so amazing! Let's agree to agree! Because violent attacks against the civilian population will only make them angry, and attacks against the central government are straight counter-productive.




"those idiots in the distant capital, just don't get them?"
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Reminds me very much of the attitude of some people towards the EU...

In fact, the people who seem to be most in favour of it are Americans with supposed Scottish heritage.
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Or people (like me) who want to weaken a UK who is overly reluctant concerning EU integration... :bat:
 
Vrtbovska Zahrada:
Reminds me very much of the attitude of some people towards the EU...

In fact, the people who seem to be most in favour of it are Americans with supposed Scottish heritage.
Click to expand...

Or people (like me) who want to weaken a UK who is overly reluctant concerning EU integration... :bat:
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Get rid of the CAP, and out perform the Pound Sterling and we'll talk again ;)
 
No CAP, no structural funds for backwards regions at the edge of the Union (like Scotland!) ! Deal?


And is the Pound outperforming the Euro? Are ya sure?

Give me a good proof!
 
Lord Valentine:
Might want to check the exchange rates :P

Live rates at 2007.05.27 15:06:35 UTC
1.00 GBP = 1.47433 EUR

1 GBP = 1.47433 EUR    
1 EUR = 0.678275 GBP
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Uhm, what is more important for being able to judge the stability of a nation's economy, is the development of the exchange rate over time...best would be a graphic of the Euro/Pound exchange rates from the beginning...
 
[edit]This is LV using Feg's account! D'oh![/edit]

Have you got one, because I can't find one. I certainly can't think of a time when the Euro has come close to outperforming the pound-sterling. It is/has done better than the silly Dollar though :P
 
I searched one (and found one), but I don't dare posting it here, I'm too ashamed of the Euro performance... :lol:

No, not really, the exchange rate didn't move much, I wouldn't call it "outperforming" at all.
 
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