Duality

Duality is crap, imo. It's just an excuse spies and saboteurs use to go without punishment.
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That was probably tongue in cheek, but in general, I am with Fedele on this one. Few players have the intelligence and talent to successfully make a go of Duality, and most of the players bleating about it in order to remain in the region while waging war on the region certainly do not.
 
Seriously....could a mod/admin split the duality discussion from this thread as it really has nothing to do with the current topic title....
A suggestion for new thread title....the definitive duality discussion....
 
Obvious Duality Infraction: A region (or faction thereof) plans to do something to annother region. Player A has nations in both regions. Player A reads the plan in the agressing region's forum and *poof* Player A's nation in the victim region suddenly knows about a the agressing region's plan.

Obvious: Yes
Duality: No

Perhaps setting the dualists could agree to this:

A player may maintain duality in these specific cases

1. A nation that claims duality must exisist in all aspects (nation name, forum name, any registration related to NationStates) as a independent entity from any other nations that a player currently has registered or will register in the future.

2. Apon registration the nation in question must claim duality from the very first action.

3. Any confirmed trace of duality violation will permanantly revoke all duality for said nation.

4. Nations passing along diplomatic information when not recognized as the foreign envoy of an external region will be understood to have conceded their right to duality.
 
flemingovia:
Duality is crap, imo. It's just an excuse spies and saboteurs use to go without punishment.
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That was probably tongue in cheek, but in general, I am with Fedele on this one. Few players have the intelligence and talent to successfully make a go of Duality, and most of the players bleating about it in order to remain in the region while waging war on the region certainly do not.
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I agree 100%
 
I like some of what AlHoma is saying....
regarding point 2.....perhaps having a duality register somewhere....
Not sure whose department it would be in....But I do think it would have to be viewable by all....
 
And along with a duality register, we should put some obvious restrictions on it. Like, can't claim duality when another "persona" is a member or party to a group or region at war with us. Maybe extend it to "state of hostilities" or something.

Anyone who doesn't report all their other personas can be tried for espionage against TNP here.

Too harsh, maybe? Anyways. Shouldn't this be in "Preliminary Discussions" or something?
 
It's already a split thread as it is...it is primarily to discuss duality....
Though I do think a draft of something taking the relevant points into account should be put together and posted in preliminary discussions.....
 
I think we should consider a case for case basis for duality, it is something very difficult for a one size fits all type of deal, without hurting people like Fed. So far the bes one size fits all policy on duality has been

1. A nation that claims duality must exisist in all aspects (nation name, forum name, any registration related to NationStates) as a independent entity from any other nations that a player currently has registered or will register in the future.
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That would mean Cathyy would have to as registered as pixi, and cant go "I am pixi now".

Alhoma's post added with



5. Any nation with who claims "duality" and has another nation at war with TNP, can have RA status taken away with a 75+1% RA vote.
 
Well, for the few people who can actually pull it off - Fedele & GM/Ivan are examples - it doens't pose much of a problem. Fedele almost has a split personality, he does it so well. :lol:

It's only everyone else who does it that cause the problems - and generally intentionally.
 
Hersfold:
Well, for the few people who can actually pull it off - Fedele & GM/Ivan are examples - it doens't pose much of a problem. Fedele almost has a split personality, he does it so well. :lol:

It's only everyone else who does it that cause the problems - and generally intentionally.
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Exactly. I don't have any problems with Duality, I have problems with the people who abuse it and try to use it as a lame excuse to avoid responsibility. AlHoma's ideas do have some merit, though I'm not sure I'd adopt them completely wholesale yet.

I do have to admit I find this discussion a little....interesting, given that we're taking an issue that is, by it's nature, OoC and having a discussion about IC policies.
 
Well, duality is a OOC topic that has IC implications. As such, I feel that it is the duty of a responsible and realistic government to address such issues.
 
I don't disagree with you, MO, I was just commenting on it is all. To me, the Duality debate is really just a part of the larger IC/OoC discussion. Some players are truly roleplaying a character, and are always IC and never, unless explicitly stated (and rarely even then), go OoC. Then other players are really just playing the game themselves, not as anyone. In the end, this mix seems to create a very gray area when it comes to what exactly constitutes IC and OoC behavior.

But, to get back on topic, I would support some way of ensuring that those who claim to practice duality are truly practicing it and not just using it as an excuse.
 
This may have been mentioned somewhere in this thread but i can't find it - but what really is the point of duality? From what i have read and being new i might be missing the point but as far as i see it, duality is for people who can't make up their minds where they belong i.e. Which region, and therefore they are not giving full support or backing to a region.

Bearing in mind the war between The Lexicon and TNP and Fulhead Land is i think claiming duality (excuse my ignorance if i am wrong here - i am a newbie) he/she shouldn't be supporting The Lexicon over TNP but treating both equally. As far as i can see this is not happening, and if Fulhead Land is to have duality he/she should post under is TNP name without a mention of The Lexicon, but if he/she wishes to post about The Lexicon, their Lexiconian name should be used.

To me in this instance - duality is not being used.

Pardon my ignorance if i am wrong.
 
You've about got it.

Duality is maintaining at least two characters that are supposed to be completely separate by nature - i.e., they have different mannerisms, they hold different positions in different places, they have different names, and they are subject to different laws (that last part is what causes problems).

A good example is Fedele. He operates the character Scardino as a General of Lone Wolves United, a raider organization. Yet here, he operates Fedele, current Minister of Culture and Education, in a defender region. The two characters are completely different from one another, yet he keeps them completely separate - to the point he will occasionally have conversations with himself on IRC.

A bad example (since it's the one we're discussing) is Fulhead. He operates a nation in TNP (Fulhead Land) and the Lexicon (Lexiconhead). He uses a single character to control both, yet claims duality due to the fact that there are two nations in two regions. In claiming duality, he claims that Lexiconhead is not subject to TNP's laws - if the nations were completely separate as are Fedele's, we may not argue the fact. THe problem is that he does not differentiate between the two. As you stated, he should have two different personas that make little or no mention of one another.

^ More-or-less summary of the entire topic.
 
... But what is the current legality?

I mean, clearly FL isn't actually being dual, but it would be interesting to have an analysis of what the current constitution and laws ac tually say.
 
There really are no laws concerning duality. The legal precedent that FL believes exists does not - it's a case of an Attorney General refusing to prosecute charges. A legal precedent would be if a law actually stated something specific on the matter (which it does not), or if a Court Justice made an official ruling on the matter (which they have not).

That's partly what this discussion is about, I think - to try and come up with some sort of law.
 
Fulhead Land:
The current legality is on my side as I have pointed out.
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I would challenge that actually. Further, I am a bit confused as to what it is exactly that is being argued in this thread. Duality is an OOC concept. To feel the need to address duality in supporting your actions negates the IC effect. Call it the NS equivalent to Godwin's Rule if you like. (OOC: Moldavi's Rule sounds nice.)

If you have to post something like "I didn't do it because of duality" then you defeat the whole purpose and concept of dual activity in the first place. If you must argue it then you are failing at it and thus not actively engaging in it.

I would also argue that you are not even practicing it. Simply filling out a form application for the Regional Assembly, in which you state a specific nation that dwells within the confines of the north, does not automatically dictate that "duality" will be addressed if your actions are contrary to same.

For example:

tnplf3.png


One can see the two items circled in red and can read that you indicate as your selected user title a rank that is consistent with an extraregional entity. In the comment "The Lexicon - what your region should be" (bold mine) you indicate a possessiveness to The Lexicon by implying that it is yours and separate from those of the readers, which in this instance are TNPers. Therefore you are stating to TNP nations that you do not necessarily belong to TNP and are attempting to instruct "them" on what "their" region should be. If you had wished to convey a mutually expressive sentiment it should read "The Lexicon - what our region should be."
 
Just a shame you havent found the impartial opinions you asked for though.



Now while I love the grammatical arguements, I still have yet to find charges brought against me and when such charges where made against my duality, they where not taken up.

I'm sorry to say that although you spent all that time and trouble authoring the patriot act war powers act, the cabinet made that statement and stopped anyone from charging me. for anything.

Best laid plans eh.

But still, due to that the law remains on my side
 
The possible ineffectiveness of the elected government has no bearing on Justice and that which is right and wrong. Simply because certain parties haven't the merit to pursue legal action does not mean a crime has not been committed.

It is unfortunate that the Prime Minister election is resulting in more of the same but that is what the masses wish, so that is what the masses get.

If I were in position to do so I can assure you that all avenues to seek your removal would be sought.
 
What happened to the Ivan I used to know.......


:lol:


And no. If a crime is commited before a law is passed then the law cant be used to punish said crime. And due to the "ineffectivness" of the government, I cannot be tried as i havent broken the law.
 
Fulhead Land:
What happened to the Ivan I used to know.......


:lol:


And no. If a crime is commited before a law is passed then the law cant be used to punish said crime. And due to the "ineffectivness" of the government, I cannot be tried as i havent broken the law.
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It is my opinion as a citizen of the north (last hero of the north) that you have violated the oath you took when applying to take part in the Regional Assembly as illustrated in your actions on behalf of a hostile foreign government. That is a crime.

Regardless of future laws or discussions or the lack of prosecution, in my opinion you have broken the laws of this region and should be punished accordingly.
 
Go on then. Press charges. I dare you

But just to make it interesting, if you win the court case you get rid of me, if I win i get to call you "Ivan the sissy boy".
 
Fulhead Land:
Go on then. Press charges. I dare you

But just to make it interesting, if you win the court case you get rid of me, if I win i get to call you "Ivan the sissy boy".
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I believe the general point that I was making is that even if charges are posted they will not be followed up on because of the general malaise associated with following up on same, as you and others pointed out before my interaction here began.

Regarding the specific wording of your declaration, please take the pandering elsewhere, I can not be coaxed into action simply because you "dare" me to do so.
 
Fulhead Land:
Go on then. Press charges. I dare you

But just to make it interesting, if you win the court case you get rid of me, if I win i get to call you "Ivan the sissy boy".
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Don't worry, FL. Several people are working on taking up your challenge.
 
But Ivan, as you have made it clear, you believe I have broken the law and should be punished. Does your last post mean you believe that I havent broken the law then? or that you believe I have broken the law but you know the law is on my side?

EDIT:

Thanks hersfold for pointing that out. I positivly relish the thought.

Though you make charges being brought against me sound like a planned idea by a group of you...I thought TNP didnt do that kind of thing anymore.

That would be like....I dont know, making one admin complaint against me and finding excusues to make more soon afterwards..
 
Isn't part of the oath : to act as a responsible member of it's society.....???
Can you....Fulhead land....honestly say you are acting as a Responsible member of this society....???
 
what by speaking my mind, exercising my rights and asking the government to act legally?

Yes, I can say that. Thanks for asking
 
Fulhead Land:
But Ivan, as you have made it clear, you believe I have broken the law and should be punished. Does your last post mean you believe that I havent broken the law then? or that you believe I have broken the law but you know the law is on my side?
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The Law is never on anyone's side. It is an abstract that is independent of bias.

Whether I chose to press charges or not is irrelevant. You have demonstrated through action that you (the account and nation being represented here on this forum) place emphasis on The Lexicon as a primary concern above that of the north. That is a violation of your oath and a crime. It is very clear and provided charges are brought and prosecution does even a halfassed job it will be clear to any jury in our system.
 
Fulhead Land:
It is an abstract that is independent of bias.
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then how, my dear Ivan, is

even if charges are posted they will not be followed up on because of the general malaise associated with following up on same,
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true?
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The Law is separate from the execution of same. That is an historical fact as well as an observed one in current times. Simply because the Law states X does not necessarily mean that without fail a nation performing a violation of X will be prosecuted. While we can believe it should be so, it quite simply is not. I do not believe your comparison holds any merit.
 
Technically, according to the Constitution, if we don't take duality into account, I, as a raider, should not be allowed into the RA. It’s stated quite clearly in the laws but has been largely ignored due to consideration of duality.
 
Not really. There's nothing that says raiders can't be in the RA. You're not actively at war with us or calling the the destruction of the region - bit of a difference there.
 
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