Israel Vs. Lebanon Vs. Syria

I know i'm not the only one here watching the news and knows that Israel and Hezbollah aren't getting along. I came across this a little while ago and it seems to originate from Strategic Forecasting, a very expensive site to obtain intelligence reports. Read on if you want to learn a lot more about why this is happening and what can be expected in the future. (It's been accurate so far with Israel invading Lebanon early this week)

Middle East Crisis: Backgrounder

Israel lives with three realities: geographic, demographic and cultural. Geographically, it is at a permanent disadvantage, lacking strategic depth. It does enjoy the advantage of interior lines -- the ability to move forces rapidly from one front to another. Demographically, it is on the whole outnumbered, although it can achieve local superiority in numbers by choosing the time and place of war. Its greatest advantage is cultural. It has a far greater mastery of the technology and culture of war than its neighbors.

Two of the realities cannot be changed. Nothing can be done about geography or demography. Culture can be changed. It is not inherently the case that Israel will have a technological or operational advantage over its neighbors. The great inherent fear of Israel is that the Arabs will equal or surpass Israeli prowess culturally and therefore militarily. If that were to happen, then all three realities would turn against Israel and Israel might well be at risk.

That is why the capture of Israeli troops, first one in the south, then two in the north, has galvanized Israel. The kidnappings represent a level of Arab tactical prowess that previously was the Israeli domain. They also represent a level of tactical slackness on the Israeli side that was previously the Arab domain. These events hardly represent a fundamental shift in the balance of power. Nevertheless, for a country that depends on its cultural superiority, any tremor in this variable reverberates dramatically. Hamas and Hezbollah have struck the core Israeli nerve. Israel cannot ignore it.

Embedded in Israel's demographic problem is this: Israel has national security requirements that outstrip its manpower base. It can field a sufficient army, but its industrial base cannot supply all of the weapons needed to fight high-intensity conflicts. This means it is always dependent on an outside source for its industrial base and must align its policies with that source. At first this was the Soviets, then France and finally the United States. Israel broke with the Soviets and France when their political demands became too intense. It was after 1967 that it entered into a patron-client relationship with the United States. This relationship is its strength and its weakness. It gives the Israelis the systems they need for national security, but since U.S. and Israeli interests diverge, the relationship constrains Israel's range of action.

During the Cold War, the United States relied on Israel for a critical geopolitical function. The fundamental U.S. interest was Turkey, which controlled the Bosporus and kept the Soviet fleet under control in the Mediterranean. The emergence of Soviet influence in Syria and Iraq -- which was not driven by U.S. support for Israel since the United States did not provide all that much support compared to France -- threatened Turkey with attack from two directions, north and south. Turkey could not survive this. Israel drew Syrian attention away from Turkey by threatening Damascus and drawing forces and Soviet equipment away from the Turkish frontier. Israel helped secure Turkey and turned a Soviet investment into a dry hole. Once Egypt signed a treaty with Israel and Sinai became a buffer zone, Israel became safe from a full peripheral war – everyone attacking at the same time. Jordan was not going to launch an attack and Syria by itself could not strike. The danger to Israel became Palestinian operations inside of Israel and the occupied territories and the threat posed from Lebanon by the Syrian-sponsored group Hezbollah.

In 1982, Israel responded to this threat by invading Lebanon. It moved as far north as Beirut and the mountains east and northeast of it. Israel did not invade Beirut proper, since Israeli forces do not like urban warfare as it imposes too high a rate of attrition. But what the Israelis found was low-rate attrition. Throughout their occupation of Lebanon, they were constantly experiencing guerrilla attacks, particularly from Hezbollah. Hezbollah has two patrons: Syria and Iran . The Syrians have used Hezbollah to pursue their political and business interests in Lebanon. Iran has used Hezbollah for business and ideological reasons. Business interests were the overlapping element. In the interest of business, it became important to Hezbollah, Syria and Iran that an accommodation be reached with Israel. Israel wanted to withdraw from Lebanon in order to end the constant low-level combat and losses.

Israel withdrew in 1988, having reached quiet understandings with Syria that Damascus would take responsibility for Hezbollah, in return for which Israel would not object to Syrian domination of Lebanon. Iran, deep in its war with Iraq, was not in a position to object if it had wanted to. Israel returned to its borders in the north, maintaining a security presence in the south of Lebanon that lasted for several years.

As Lebanon blossomed and Syria's hold on it loosened, Iran also began to increase its regional influence. Its hold on some elements of Hezbollah strengthened, and in recent months, Hezbollah -- aligning itself with Iranian Shiite ideology -- has become more aggressive. Iranian weapons were provided to Hezbollah, and tensions grew along the frontier. This culminated in the capture of two soldiers in the north and the current crisis.

It is difficult to overestimate the impact of the soldier kidnappings on the Israeli psyche. First, while the Israeli military is extremely highly trained, Israel is also a country with mass conscription. Having a soldier kidnapped by Arabs hits every family in the country. The older generation is shocked and outraged that members of the younger generation have been captured and worried that they allowed themselves to be captured; therefore, the younger generation needs to prove it too can defeat the Arabs. This is not a primary driver, but it is a dimension.

The more fundamental issue is this: Israel withdrew from Lebanon in order to escape low-intensity conflict. If Hezbollah is now going to impose low-intensity conflict on Israel's border, the rationale for withdrawal disappears. It is better for Israel to fight deep in Lebanon than inside Israel. If the rockets are going to fall in Israel proper, then moving into a forward posture has no cost to Israel.

From an international standpoint, the Israelis expect to be condemned. These international condemnations, however, are now having the opposite effect of what is intended. The Israeli view is that they will be condemned regardless of what they do. The differential between the condemnation of reprisal attacks and condemnation of a full invasion is not enough to deter more extreme action. If Israel is going to be attacked anyway, it might as well achieve its goals.

Moreover, an invasion of Hezbollah-held territory aligns Israel with the United States. U.S. intelligence has been extremely concerned about the growing activity of Hezbollah, and U.S. relations with Iran are not good. Lebanon is the center of gravity of Hezbollah, and the destruction of Hezbollah capabilities in Lebanon, particularly the command structure, would cripple Hezbollah operations globally in the near future. The United States would very much like to see that happen, but cannot do it itself. Moreover, an Israeli action would enrage the Islamic world, but it would also drive home the limits of Iranian power. Once again, Iran would have dropped Lebanon in the grease, and not been hurt itself. The lesson of Hezbollah would not be lost on the Iraqi Shia -- or so the Bush administration would hope.

Therefore, this is one Israeli action that benefits the United States, and thus helps the immediate situation as well as long-term geopolitical alignments. It realigns the United States and Israel. This also argues that any invasion must be devastating to Hezbollah. It must go deep. It must occupy temporarily. It must shatter Hezbollah.

At this point, the Israelis appear to be unrolling a war plan in this direction. They have blockaded the Lebanese coast. Israeli aircraft are attacking what air power there is in Lebanon, and have attacked Hezbollah and other key command-and-control infrastructure. It would follow that the Israelis will now concentrate on destroying Hezbollah -- and Lebanese -- communications capabilities and attacking munitions dumps, vehicle sites, rocket-storage areas and so forth.

Most important, Israel is calling up its reserves. This is never a symbolic gesture in Israel. All Israelis below middle age are in the reserves and mobilization is costly in every sense of the word. If the Israelis were planning a routine reprisal, they would not be mobilizing. But they are, which means they are planning to do substantially more than retributive airstrikes. The question is what their plan is.

Given the blockade and what appears to be the shape of the airstrikes, it seems to us at the moment the Israelis are planning to go fairly deep into Lebanon. The logical first step is a move to the Litani River in southern Lebanon. But given the missile attacks on Haifa, they will go farther, not only to attack launcher sites, but to get rid of weapons caches. This means a move deep into the Bekaa Valley, the seat of Hezbollah power and the location of plants and facilities. Such a penetration would leave Israeli forces' left flank open, so a move into Bekaa would likely be accompanied by attacks to the west. It would bring the Israelis close to Beirut again.

This leaves Israel's right flank exposed, and that exposure is to Syria. The Israeli doctrine is that leaving Syrian airpower intact while operating in Lebanon is dangerous. Therefore, Israel must at least be considering using its air force to attack Syrian facilities, unless it gets ironclad assurances the Syrians will not intervene in any way. Conversations are going on between Egypt and Syria, and we suspect this is the subject. But Israel would not necessarily object to the opportunity of eliminating Syrian air power as part of its operation, or if Syria chooses, going even further.

At the same time, Israel does not intend to get bogged down in Lebanon again. It will want to go in, wreak havoc, withdraw. That means it will go deeper and faster, and be more devastating, than if it were planning a long-term occupation. It will go in to liquidate Hezbollah and then leave. True, this is no final solution, but for the Israelis, there are no final solutions.

Israeli forces are already in Lebanon. Its special forces are inside identifying targets for airstrikes. We expect numerous air attacks over the next 48 hours, as well as reports of firefights in southern Lebanon. We also expect more rocket attacks on Israel.

It will take several days to mount a full invasion of Lebanon. We would not expect major operations before the weekend at the earliest. If the rocket attacks are taking place, however, Israel might send several brigades to the Litani River almost immediately in order to move the rockets out of range of Haifa. Therefore, we would expect a rapid operation in the next 24-48 hours followed by a larger force later.

At this point, the only thing that can prevent this would be a major intervention by Syria with real guarantees that it would restrain Hezbollah and indications such operations are under way. Syria is the key to a peaceful resolution. Syria must calculate the relative risks, and we expect them to be unwilling to act decisively.

Therefore:

1. Israel cannot tolerate an insurgency on its northern frontier; if there is one, it wants it farther north.
2. It cannot tolerate attacks on Haifa.
3. It cannot endure a crisis of confidence in its military.
4. Hezbollah cannot back off of its engagement with Israel.
5. Syria can stop this, but the cost to it stopping it is higherthan the cost of letting it go on.

It would appear Israel will invade Lebanon. The global response will be noisy. There will be no substantial international action against Israel. Beirut's tourism and transportation industry, as well as its financial sectors, are very much at risk.


© 2005 Strategic Forecasting, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Stratfor: Alerts - July 14, 2006

Red Alert: Hezbollah's Motives

Hezbollah's decision to increase operations against Israel was not taken lightly. The leadership of Hezbollah has not so much moderated over the years as it has aged. The group's leaders have also, with age, become comfortable and in many cases wealthy. They are at least part of the Lebanese political process, and in some real sense part of the Lebanese establishment. These are men with a radical past and of radical mind-set, but they are older, comfortable and less adventurous than 20 years ago. Therefore, the question is: Why are they increasing tensions with Israel and inviting an invasion that threatens their very lives? There are three things to look at: the situation among the Palestinians, the situation in Lebanon and the situation in the Islamic world. But first we must consider the situation in Hezbollah itself.

There is a generation gap in Hezbollah. Hezbollah began as a Shiite radical group inspired by the Iranian Islamic Revolution. In that context, Hezbollah represented a militant, nonsecular alternative to the Nasserite Fatah, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and other groups that took their bearing from Pan-Arabism rather than Islam. Hezbollah split the Shiite community in Lebanon -- which was against Sunnis and Christians -- but most of all, engaged the Israelis. It made a powerful claim that the Palestinian movement had no future while it remained fundamentally secular and while its religious alternatives derived from the conservative Arab monarchies. More than anyone, it was Hezbollah that introduced Islamist suicide bombings.

Hezbollah had a split personality, however; it was supported by two very different states. Iran was radically Islamist. Syria, much closer and a major power in Lebanon, was secular and socialist. They shared an anti-Zionist ideology, but beyond that, not much. Moreover, the Syrians viewed the Palestinian claim for a state with a jaundiced eye. Palestine was, from their point of view, part of the Ottoman Empire's Syrian province, divided by the British and French. Syria wanted to destroy Israel, but not necessarily to create a Palestinian state.

From Syria's point of view, the real issue was the future of Lebanon, which it wanted to reabsorb into Syria, or at the very least economically exploit. The Syrians intervened in Lebanon against the Palestine Liberation Organization and on the side of some Christian elements. Their goal was much less ideological than political and economic. They saw Hezbollah as a tool in their fight with Yasser Arafat and for domination of Syria.

Hezbollah strategically was aligned with Iran. Tactically, it had to align itself with Syria, since the Syrians dominated Lebanon. That meant that when Syria wanted tension with Israel, Hezbollah provided it, and when Syria wanted things to quiet down, Hezbollah cooled it. Meanwhile the leadership of Hezbollah, aligned with the Syrians, was in a position to prosper, particular after the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

That withdrawal involved a basic, quiet agreement between Syria and Israel. Israel accepted Syrian domination of Lebanon. In return, Syria was expected to maintain a security regime that controlled Hezbollah. Attacks against Israel had to be kept within certain acceptable limits. Syria, having far less interest in Israel than in Lebanon, saw this as an opportunity to achieve its ends. Israel saw Syrian domination under these terms as a stabilizing force.

Destabilization

Two things converged to destabilize this situation. The emergence of Hamas as a major force among the Palestinians meant the Palestinian polity was being redefined. Even before the elections catapulted Hamas into a leadership role, it was clear that the Fatah-dominated government of Arafat was collapsing. Everything was up for grabs. That meant that either Hezbollah made a move or would be permanently a Lebanese organization. It had to show it was willing to take risks and be effective. In fact, it had to show that it was the most effective of all the groups. The leadership might have been reluctant, but the younger members saw this as their moment, and frankly, the old juices might have been running in the older leadership. They moved.

The second part of this occurred in Lebanon itself. After the death of former Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri, outside pressure, primarily from the United States, forced a Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon. Now, do not overestimate the extent of the withdrawal. Syrian influence in Lebanon is still enormous. But it did relieve Syria of the burden of controlling Hezbollah. Indeed, Israel was not overly enthusiastic about Syria's withdrawal from Lebanon for just that reason.

Syria could now claim to have no influence or obligation concerning Hezbollah. Hezbollah's leadership lost the cover of being able to tell the young Turks that they would be more aggressive, but that the Syrians would not let them. As the Syrian withdrawal loosened up Lebanese politics, Hezbollah was neither restrained nor could it pretend to be restrained. Whatever the mixed feelings might have been, the mission was the mission, Syrian withdrawal opened the door and Hezbollah could not resist walking through it, and many members urgently wanted to walk through it.

At the same time the Iranians were deeply involved in negotiations in Iraq and over Tehran's nuclear program. They wanted as many levers as they could find to use in negotiations against the United States. They already had the ability to destabilize Iraq. They had a nuclear program the United States wanted to get rid of. Reactivating a global network that directly threatened American interests was another chip on the bargaining table. Not attacking U.S. interests but attacking Israel demonstrated Hezbollah's vibrancy without directly threatening the United States. Moreover, activities around the world, not carefully shielded in some cases, gave Iran further leverage.

In addition, it allowed Iran to reclaim its place as the leader of Islamic radical resurgence. Al Qaeda, a Sunni group, had supplanted Iran in the Islamic world. Indeed, Iran's collaboration with the West allowed Tehran to be pictured among the "hypocrites" Osama bin Laden condemned. Iran wants to become the dominant power in the Persian Gulf, and one part of that is to take away the mantle of Islamic radicalism from al Qaeda. Since al Qaeda is a damaged organization at best, and since Hezbollah pioneered Islamist terrorism on a global basis, reactivating Hezbollah made a great deal of sense to the Iranians.

Hezbollah's Position

Syria benefited by showing how badly it was needed in Lebanon. Iran picked up additional leverage against the United States. Hezbollah claimed a major place at the negotiations shaping the future of Palestinian politics. It all made a great deal of sense.

Of course, it was also obvious that Israel would respond. From Syria's point of view, that was fine. Israel would bog down again. It would turn to Syria to relieve it of its burdens. Israel would not want an Islamic regime in Damascus. Syria gets regime preservation and the opportunity to reclaim Lebanon. Iran gets a war hundreds of miles away from it, letting others fight its battles. It can claim it is the real enemy of Israel in the Islamic world. The United States might bargain away interests in Iraq in order to control Hezbollah. An Israeli invasion opens up possibilities without creating much risk.

It is Hezbollah that takes it on the chin. But Hezbollah, by its nature and its relationships, really did not have much choice. It had to act or become irrelevant. So now the question is: What does Hezbollah do when the Israelis come? They can resist. They have anti-tank weapons and other systems from Iran. They can inflict casualties. They can impose a counterinsurgency. Syria may think Israel will have to stay, but Israel plans to crush Hezbollah's infrastructure and leave, forcing Hezbollah to take years to recover. Everyone else in Lebanon is furious at Hezbollah for disrupting the recovery. What does Hezbollah do?

In the 1980s, what Hezbollah did was take Western hostages. The United States is enormously sensitive to hostage situations. It led Ronald Reagan to Iran-Contra. Politically, the United States has trouble handling hostages. This is the one thing Hezbollah learned in the 1980s that the leaders remember. A portfolio of hostages is life insurance. Hezbollah could go back to its old habits. It makes sense to do so.

It will not do this while there is a chance of averting an invasion. But once it is crystal clear it is coming, grabbing hostages makes sense. Assuming the invasion is going to occur early next week -- or a political settlement is going to take place -- Western powers now have no more than 72 hours to get their nationals out of Beirut or into places of safety. That probably cannot be done. There are thousands of Westerners in Beirut. But the next few days will focus on ascertaining Israeli intensions and timelines, and executing plans to withdraw citizens. The Israelis might well shift their timeline to facilitate this. But all things considered, if Hezbollah returns to its roots, it should return to its first operational model: hostages.


© 2005 Strategic Forecasting, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Stratfor: Alerts - July 15, 2006

Special Report: Getting Ready

We are now in the period preceding major conventional operations. Israel is in the process of sealing the Lebanese coast. They have disrupted Lebanese telecommunications, although they have not completely collapsed the structure. Israeli aircraft are attacking Hezbollah's infrastructure and road system. In the meantime, Hezbollah, aware it is going to be hit hard, is in a use-it or-lose-it scenario, firing what projectiles it can into Israel.

The Israeli strategy appears to be designed to do two things. First, the Israelis are trying to prevent any supplies from entering Lebanon, including reinforcements. That is why they are attacking all coastal maritime facilities. Second, they are degrading the roads in Lebanon. That will keep reinforcements from reaching Hezbollah fighters engaged in the south. As important, it will prevent the withdrawal and redeployment of heavy equipment deployed by Hezbollah in the south, particularly their rockets, missiles and launchers. The Israelis are preparing the battlefield to prevent a Hezbollah retreat or maneuver.

Hezbollah's strategy has been imposed on it. It seems committed to standing and fighting. The rate of fire they are maintaining into Israel is clearly based on an expectation that Israel will be attacking. The rocketry guarantees the Israelis will attack. Hezbollah has been reported to have anti-tank and anti-air weapons. The Israelis will use airmobile tactics to surround and isolate Hezbollah concentrations, but in the end, they will have to go in, engage and defeat Hezbollah tactically. Hezbollah obviously knows this, but there is no sign of disintegration on its part. At the very least, Hezbollah is projecting an appetite for combat. Sources in Beirut, who have been reliable to this point, say Hezbollah has weapons that have not yet been seen, such as anti-aircraft missiles, and that these will be used shortly. Whatever the truth of this, Hezbollah does not seem to think its situation is hopeless.

The uncertain question is Syria. No matter how effectively Israel seals the Lebanese coast, so long as the Syrian frontier is open, Hezbollah might get supplies from there, and might be able to retreat there. So far, there has been only one reported airstrike on a Syrian target. Both Israel and Syria were quick to deny this.

What is interesting is that it was the Syrians who insisted very publicly that no such attack took place. The Syrians are clearly trying to avoid a situation in which they are locked into a confrontation with Israel. Israel might well think this is the time to have it out with Syria as well, but Syria is trying very hard not to give Israel casus belli. In addition, Syria is facilitating the movement of Westerners out of Lebanon, allowing them free transit. They are trying to signal that they are being cooperative and nonaggressive.

The problem is this: While Syria does not want to get hit and will not make overt moves, so long as the Syrians cannot guarantee supplies will not reach Hezbollah or that Hezbollah won't be given sanctuary in Syria, Israel cannot complete its mission of shattering Hezbollah and withdrawing. They could be drawn into an Iraq-like situation that they absolutely don't want. Israel is torn. On the one hand, it wants to crush Hezbollah, and that requires total isolation. On the other hand, it does not want the Syrian regime to fall. What comes after would be much worse from Israel's point of view.

This is the inherent problem built into Israel's strategy, and what gives Hezbollah some hope. If Israel does not attack Syria, Hezbollah could well survive Israel's attack by moving across the border. No matter how many roads are destroyed, Israel won't be able to prevent major Hezbollah formations moving across the border. If they do attack Syria and crush al Assad's government, Hezbollah could come out of this stronger than ever.

Judging from the airstrikes in the past 24 hours, it would appear Israel is trying to solve the problem tactically, by degrading Lebanese transport facilities. That could increase the effectiveness of the strategy, but in the end cannot be sufficient. We continue to think Israel will choose not to attack Syria directly and therefore, while the invasion will buy time, it will not solve the problem. Hezbollah certainly expects to be badly hurt, but it does not seem to expect to be completely annihilated. We are guessing, but our guess is that they are reading Israel's views on Syria and are betting that, in the long run, they will come out stronger. Of course, Israel knows this and therefore may have a different plan for Syria. At any rate, this is the great unknown in this campaign.

The other unknown is the withdrawal of Western nationals from Lebanon. We have received very reliable reports from sources in Lebanon who assure us Hezbollah does not intend to renew hostage taking, which is deemed an old and nonproductive strategy. These same sources have reported splits in Hezbollah over how aggressive it should be. We believe Hezbollah has no current plans for hostage taking. We are not convinced, however, that in the course of the battle it will not change its mind, or that with weakened central control elements, elements of Hezbollah will take hostages as a bargaining chip. Regardless of what Hezbollah is saying now, hostage taking must be taken seriously as a possibility.

The U.S. Embassy in Beirut is now saying plans are being developed in concert with the U.S. Defense Department for extracting U.S. nationals from Lebanon. A convoy scheduled to travel from the American University of Beirut to Amman, Jordan, via Syria, was cancelled at the last moment, with participants being told that the embassy has other plans.

There are said to be 25,000 U.S. citizens in Lebanon, but many of these are Lebanese-American dual nationals who actually live in Lebanon as Lebanese. These are less visible, less at risk and have greater resources for survival. The most at-risk Americans are those who hold only U.S. papers and are clearly American, such as employees of American companies, students studying at Lebanese universities and tourists. There is no clear count of these high-risk nationals, nor is there a count on high-risk nationals from other non-Islamic countries. There are thousands, however, and getting them out will be difficult.

The U.S. Embassy is considering flying them to Cyprus. That would mean an air bridge from Beirut International Airport, where a single runway has been opened, to Cyprus, a short flight away. The United States will not do this while Beirut is under attack, so it will ask the Israelis to create a safe zone and air corridor during the evacuation. But the threat on the ground is real, and we suspect the United States will send troops in to secure the perimeter and surrounding areas against shoulder-launched missiles. They will also keep the precise timing secret, although thousands of people in Lebanon -- the evacuees -- will know it is coming.

There was a Marine Expeditionary Force on maneuvers in the Red Sea a few days ago. We do not know where they are now, but they had 2,200 marines on board -- the right number to secure extraction. We suspect aircraft will be chartered from airlines in the region and that some U.S. Air Force and allied aircraft might also be used. Doubtless, the United States is busy organizing it. Given that the United States cancelled several ad hoc withdrawals, it must be highly confident it has the process nailed; we would expect this operation to get going sometime Sunday. Assuming aircraft that can carry any average of 200 people (purely arbitrary), 50-100 flights could get everyone out -- assuming that everyone can be notified and can get to Beirut International Airport. That won't happen. The remainder who are at risk will probably be advised to move into Christian areas east and northeast of Beirut and to keep their heads down for the duration. It is also possible that discussion of Cyprus notwithstanding, the path will be through Syria, but we doubt that.

In the meantime, that Israel has not sent major ground units into Lebanon yet (lots of small units are operating there) but is taking rocket attacks and hunkering down indicates it does not plan to act piecemeal. If we were to guess, the main thrust would likely begin late Sunday night or Monday morning. They will be ready by then. Of course we are not privy to Israeli operations, so it could be delayed 24-48 hours to give forces a chance to gear up. But given the Hezbollah bombardment, the Israelis are under pressure to move sooner rather than later.

We are in a relatively quiet spell (emphasis on quiet). Both sides have made their strategic decisions. Both know how the war will be fought. Hezbollah thinks it can give as good as it will get for a while, and will ultimately be able to regroup for a guerrilla war against the Israelis. Israel thinks it can immobilize and crush Hezbollah quickly and decisively and will be able to withdraw. Both sides know Syria is the wild card, and neither is quite sure how it will play its hand. One side is wrong in its expectations about the outcome. That's the nature of war.

© 2005 Strategic Forecasting, Inc. All rights reserved.
 
It's the civilians in Lebanon I feel for; caught up in between a battle between a militant organisation launching missiles at Haifa and the Israeli military launching missiles at Beirut.

IMO Israel can and will keep up the offensive until Hezbollah is destroyed. They're probably looking for something along the lines of the 6 days war - short, successful and humiliating for their enemies (i.e., Hezbollah. The difference is there's no way any other nation would get involved in this, if they think it through, given the geopolitics of the region. No UK or US support, methinks. Not militarily, at least).

Hopefully a diplomatic solution can be found.
 
I'm not sure how good an idea a diplomatic solution with terrorists would be in the long run. If Syria behaves and the Israelis can crush them now...
 
I'm not sure how good an idea a diplomatic solution with terrorists would be in the long run. If Syria behaves and the Israelis can crush them now...
It worked well enough until Syria was forced to withdraw from Lebanon, thus nullifying the agreement by syria to control hezbollah.
 
What the Zionists are doing in Lebanon is yet another war crime added to the long list of crimes they have already committted and UN resolutions they have defied. They kill, bomb, kidnap, assassinate, destroy, threaten and occupy and expect to get away with it, and expect the international community to feel sorry for them and support them, while they do such terrible things?

How many Arab women and children have they murdered? How many are being held in Israeli prisons without charge or trial? Why can Israel have 200 nuclear warheads and Iran can't? This is ridiculous.

Hezbollah has a right to defend their country from the Zionist aggressors. Victory to Hezbollah, death to the Zionist aggressors!
 
What the Zionists are doing in Lebanon is yet another war crime added to the long list of crimes they have already committted and UN resolutions they have defied. They kill, bomb, kidnap, assassinate, destroy, threaten and occupy and expect to get away with it, and expect the international community to feel sorry for them and support them, while they do such terrible things?

How many Arab women and children have they murdered? How many are being held in Israeli prisons without charge or trial? Why can Israel have 200 nuclear warheads and Iran can't? This is ridiculous.

Hezbollah has a right to defend their country from the Zionist aggressors. Victory to Hezbollah, death to the Zionist aggressors!
Did you take that right from the hezbollah website? :lol:
 
Did you take that right from the hezbollah website?

Israel's entire existence is based on some fictitious book written thousands of years ago. If I was to say I was gay, and gays were persecuted by Hitler, and I wrote a book saying that England should be given to gay people, and I demanded England be turned into a homosexual refuge, and anyone not gay would be ethnically cleansed, I would be considered crazy - yet this is exactly what is happening in Israel.
 
I think you're muddling two different conflicts OPA. I happen to agree with you about Israel, but this is more hezbollah taking extreme action because they need to impress Hamas and the rest of the world.
 
I'm not sure how good an idea a diplomatic solution with terrorists would be in the long run. If Syria behaves and the Israelis can crush them now...
It worked well enough until Syria was forced to withdraw from Lebanon, thus nullifying the agreement by syria to control hezbollah.
And who's to say it won't happen again?

Hezbollah are terrorists, and if Israel can crush them, then so much the better IMO.
 
That's a problem though, if Israel tries to eradicate them then they will have to interdict the syrian border to prevent hezbollah's escape from Lebanon. Syria will be backed into a corner at that point, either they strike back at Israel or they cooperate and the rest of the middle east hates them for supporting Israel. When Hezbollah goes on the run you can expect some pretty interesting stuff to happen.
 
What is implicit in Israel's actions is the assumption that the Lebanese Hezbollahan (civilian) government can adequately control the Hezbollahan militia. In an area as wracked by violence as that area of the Middle East, civilian de jure government is often at an equal or lesser footing than the military structure that underpins such a civilian government. Therefore, I'm not sure to what capacity the Lebanese government can be effective in reining in the militia. If such is the case, the Israeli doctrine of "collective punishment" may seem simply spiteful to the government and people of Lebanon (quite Westernized among the Middle Eastern countries, if I'm not mistaken).

What I think the Israelis should do is go in, wipe up Hezbollah, leave quickly, and give up this rhetoric of punishing the entire Lebanese people for the actions of a fringe militia that they really can't control.
 
My line of thought on the matter mirrors Monte Ozarka's: even though the sitting government of Lebanon should be able to control what is going on inside its borders, it doesn't actually have control over the Hezbollah forces. If Israel is actually interested in creating a peaceful neighbor to its north it would be working with the Lebanese government to weaken Hezbollah, not weakening everyone which will naturally lead the foreign-backed Hezbollah to yield more influence in the country when they can use Syrian and Iranian money to prop themselves up more quickly.

It's utterly appropriate for Israel to stomp on Hezbollah forces in Southern Lebanon, even to bomb their headquarters in Beirut. However, punishing the country at large is a strikingly irrational move.
 
In case you haven't noticed, the government of Lebanon is basically completely under the control of Syria, with a few exceptions. They haven't even called up their own armed forces yet, despite the fact that there are hostilities in the south part of their country AND IN THE FRIGGIN CAPITAL.

The Lebanese government won't do anything, partly out of fear of Israel and Syria and partly because Syria will tell them not to.

My major concern is what would happen if Hezzbollah decides to evacuate its forces into a Christian zone and take the entire area "hostage" in a way. Nobody would support shelling a Christian part of Lebanon.

Another major factor is oil. Syria's major export is it, and even though its reserves are small, the market is pretty volatile as it is. In addition, Israel doesn't have it. If it calls up its reserves, it can't maintain a coordinated offensive for an extended period of time. They'd have probably 2 to 6 months, maximum in my opinion to carry out all of their combat operations. American oil can only sustain them for so long.
 
Yes, it is, but if we're gonna root for one of two sides, I'd rather see the more conservative Hezbollah civilian elements win out over the radical Hezbollah militia element. Let's face it. As much as we'd all like to see Hezbollah disappear completely, it just isn't going to happen because Israel simply does not have the manpower, resources, or geographic advantage to devote their military to a full-scale occupation of Lebanon and/or Syria.

All that Israel can hope for is to destroy the armed elements in Southern Lebanon that are actively presenting a present danger to Israel and rattle the Lebanese government into acting more favorably toward Israel. Israel isn't going to end terrorism in its area by its lonesome. Since the US is tied up elsewhere (*cough*) and Europe is loathe to move, Israel must somehow make friends with at least a few of its neighbors.
 
Yes, it is, but if we're gonna root for one of two sides, I'd rather see the more conservative Hezbollah civilian elements win out over the radical Hezbollah militia element. Let's face it. As much as we'd all like to see Hezbollah disappear completely, it just isn't going to happen because Israel simply does not have the manpower, resources, or geographic advantage to devote their military to a full-scale occupation of Lebanon and/or Syria.

They're the same friggin thing! They're just 2 parts of 1 organization. This isn't a battle between civilian and military, this is between Hezbollah and the world.

All that Israel can hope for is to destroy the armed elements in Southern Lebanon that are actively presenting a present danger to Israel and rattle the Lebanese government into acting more favorably toward Israel. Israel isn't going to end terrorism in its area by its lonesome. Since the US is tied up elsewhere (*cough*) and Europe is loathe to move, Israel must somehow make friends with at least a few of its neighbors.

And this statement shows a completely misunderstanding of the situation in the area. Who does Israel have to make friends with? Literally every country in the region with the exceptions of Iraq and Egypt want the state to be destroyed, some more openly than others. And once again, the Lebanese won't act until the Syrians tell them to.
 
They're the same friggin thing! They're just 2 parts of 1 organization. This isn't a battle between civilian and military, this is between Hezbollah and the world.
No, not quite. The civilian arm and military arm are independent. Sheik Nasrallah is supposed to be head honcho, but there is a degree of factionalism within Hezbollah. Sure, both wings profess the same ideology, but what matters at the current moment is the method in which they express it. Please understand that ideologies and actions are wholly separate things. For example, China calls itself a communist country that works for the welfare of its peasants, but in actuality, it is a very capitalistic country with a quickly-growing middle class and huge class differences.

Anyways, I'm straying from my point. Someone can say that they're something, but they may not be telling the whole truth. Nasrallah is supposed to be in charge of the whole of Hezbollah, but when your subjects have the guns, you don't get to call the shots.

And this statement shows a completely misunderstanding of the situation in the area. Who does Israel have to make friends with? Literally every country in the region with the exceptions of Iraq and Egypt want the state to be destroyed, some more openly than others. And once again, the Lebanese won't act until the Syrians tell them to.
You misunderstand me. I'm saying that Israel needs to find someone to work with in the most temporary of time frames. Look. Lebanon is so far in debt modernizing its country to try to attract the well-off. It's banked on all the nice and shiny new facilities they built not being blown up by an Israeli M1A2 or F-16. Israel does have some leverage. I'm not saying it would work or amount to much, but given its current strategic situation, they have to try. Iran's going crazy and is probably ready to shoot off some missiles at the soonest opportunity. If it came down to a military slugging match, Israel would probably win and quickly. However, it wouldn't be pretty for either side. Given the growing jihadist attitude spreading in the Middle East, I would daresay that Israel would come off the worse for wear without significant Western support. However, as we see, the West can't come to Israel's rescue all the time. :eyeroll:
 
No, not quite. The civilian arm and military arm are independent. Sheik Nasrallah is supposed to be head honcho, but there is a degree of factionalism within Hezbollah. Sure, both wings profess the same ideology, but what matters at the current moment is the method in which they express it. Please understand that ideologies and actions are wholly separate things. For example, China calls itself a communist country that works for the welfare of its peasants, but in actuality, it is a very capitalistic country with a quickly-growing middle class and huge class differences.

Anyways, I'm straying from my point. Someone can say that they're something, but they may not be telling the whole truth. Nasrallah is supposed to be in charge of the whole of Hezbollah, but when your subjects have the guns, you don't get to call the shots.

1. Factionalism never implies that there are two separate organizations. The Republican party has many factions. Does it mean it doesn't exist as 1 but rather as say separate Republican parties at the national level? No.

Furthermore, both sides are actively pursuing the same idealogy. In fact, it can be seen as the two sides complimenting each other. The civilian wing tries to control the Lebanese Parliament to give Hezbollah a base for operations, while the military wing does stuff like kidnappings. This is completely different from the China situation. You're implying that the civilian wing is condemning Israel publicly but privately giving it support, while the military wing is actively attacking Israel.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that Israel needs to find someone to work with in the most temporary of time frames. Look. Lebanon is so far in debt modernizing its country to try to attract the well-off. It's banked on all the nice and shiny new facilities they built not being blown up by an Israeli M1A2 or F-16. Israel does have some leverage. I'm not saying it would work or amount to much, but given its current strategic situation, they have to try. Iran's going crazy and is probably ready to shoot off some missiles at the soonest opportunity. If it came down to a military slugging match, Israel would probably win and quickly. However, it wouldn't be pretty for either side. Given the growing jihadist attitude spreading in the Middle East, I would daresay that Israel would come off the worse for wear without significant Western support. However, as we see, the West can't come to Israel's rescue all the time. rolleyes.gif

1. There is no one to work with besides Egypt and the US on even a timeframe of 1 second. There's just no one.

2. Parts of Lebanon haven't been bombed yet, so investors could just as easily go there. Furthermore, it also depends on other factors, such as a trained workforce, so blowing up some bridges isn't enough to deter investors completely, despite the fact that there is no reason to go there in the first place.

3. Israel has all of the leverage. They are, however, committed to destroy the capabilites of Hezbollah, no matter what the cost.

4. Iran has already fired missles/provided missles to Hezbollah. They can't even attack Israel in the region anyway.

5. Israel is years ahead of any neighbor's military capabilites. They are not going into a full ground war, but they don't need to. The Israeli Airforce has complete dominance in the region, and ariel bombardments could easily wipe out large parts of Hezbollah.
 
5. Israel is years ahead of any neighbor's military capabilites. They are not going into a full ground war, but they don't need to. The Israeli Airforce has complete dominance in the region, and ariel bombardments could easily wipe out large parts of Hezbollah.

that is true and false at the same time

Syria has state of the arc anti aircraft and anitbomb missles

and the hezbulla short and medium range rockets, that tech is out dated, BUT it is low flying and almost impossible to intercept in the air
 
That might be true, but they lack a strong ground force or nuclear weapons.

Granted, when these countries are this close, Syria's biological and chemical stockpile is just as effective...still, they aren't stupid.
 
5. Israel is years ahead of any neighbor's military capabilites. They are not going into a full ground war, but they don't need to.

Figured this article would be relevant.

The New York Times

August 7, 2006
The Militia
A Disciplined Hezbollah Surprises Israel With Its Training, Tactics and Weapons
By STEVEN ERLANGER and RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

JERUSALEM, Aug. 6 — On Dec. 26, 2003, a powerful earthquake leveled most of Bam, in southeastern Iran, killing 35,000 people. Transport planes carrying aid poured in from everywhere, including Syria.

According to Israeli military intelligence, the planes returned to Syria carrying sophisticated weapons, including long-range Zelzal missiles, which the Syrians passed on to Hezbollah, the Shiite militia group in southern Lebanon that Iran created and sponsors.

As the Israeli Army struggles for a fourth week to defeat Hezbollah before a cease-fire, the shipments are just one indication of how — with the help of its main sponsors, Iran and Syria — the militia has sharply improved its arsenal and strategies in the six years since Israel abruptly ended its occupation of southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a militia trained like an army and equipped like a state, and its fighters “are nothing like Hamas or the Palestinians,” said a soldier who just returned from Lebanon. “They are trained and highly qualified,” he said, equipped with flak jackets, night-vision goggles, good communications and sometimes Israeli uniforms and ammunition. “All of us were kind of surprised.”

Much attention has been focused on Hezbollah’s astonishing stockpile of Syrian- and Iranian-made missiles, some 3,000 of which have already fallen on Israel. More than 48 Israelis have been killed in the attacks — including 12 reservist soldiers killed Sunday, who were gathered at a kibbutz at Kfar Giladi, in northern Israel, when rockets packed with antipersonnel ball bearings exploded among them, and 3 killed Sunday evening in another rocket barrage on Haifa.

But Iran and Syria also used those six years to provide satellite communications and some of the world’s best infantry weapons, including modern, Russian-made antitank weapons and Semtex plastic explosives, as well as the training required to use them effectively against Israeli armor.

It is Hezbollah’s skillful use of those weapons — in particular, wire-guided and laser-guided antitank missiles, with double, phased explosive warheads and a range of about two miles — that has caused most of the casualties to Israeli forces.

Hezbollah’s Russian-made antitank missiles, designed to penetrate armor, have damaged or destroyed Israeli vehicles, including its most modern tank, the Merkava, on about 20 percent of their hits, Israeli tank commanders at the front said.

Hezbollah has also used antitank missiles, including the less modern Sagger, to fire from a distance into houses in which Israeli troops are sheltered, with a first explosion cracking the typical concrete block wall and the second going off inside.

“They use them like artillery to hit houses,” said Brig. Gen. Yossi Kuperwasser, until recently the Israeli Army’s director of intelligence analysis. “They can use them accurately up to even three kilometers, and they go through a wall like through the armor of a tank.”

Hezbollah fighters use tunnels to quickly emerge from the ground, fire a shoulder-held antitank missile, and then disappear again, much the way Chechen rebels used the sewer system of Grozny to attack Russian armored columns.

“We know what they have and how they work,” General Kuperwasser said. “But we don’t know where all the tunnels are. So they can achieve tactical surprise.”

The antitank missiles are the “main fear” for Israeli troops, said David Ben-Nun, 24, an enlisted man in the Nahal brigade who just returned from a week in Lebanon. The troops do not linger long in any house because of hidden missile crews. “You can’t even see them,” he said.

With modern communications and a network of tunnels, storage rooms, barracks and booby traps laid under the hilly landscape, Hezbollah’s training, tactics and modern weaponry explain, the Israelis say, why they are moving with caution.

The Israelis say Hezbollah’s fighters number from 2,000 to 4,000, a small army that is aided by a larger circle of part-timers who provide logistics and storage of weapons in houses and civilian buildings.

Hezbollah operates like a revolutionary force within a civilian sea, making it hard to fight without occupying or bombing civilian areas. On orders, some fighters emerge to retrieve launchers, fire missiles and then melt away. Still, the numbers are small compared with the Israeli Army and are roughly the size of one Syrian division.

The Iranian Revolutionary Guards have helped teach Hezbollah how to organize itself like an army, with special units for intelligence, antitank warfare, explosives, engineering, communications and rocket launching.

They have also taught Hezbollah how to aim rockets, make shaped “improvised explosive devices” — used to such devastating results against American armor in Iraq — and, the Israelis say, even how to fire the C-802, a ground-to-ship missile that Israel never knew Hezbollah possessed.

Iranian Air Force officers have made repeated trips to Lebanon to train Hezbollah to aim and fire Iranian medium-range missiles, like the Fajr-3 and Fajr-5, according to intelligence officials in Washington. The Americans say they believe that a small number of Iranian operatives remain in Beirut, but say there is no evidence that they are directing Hezbollah’s attacks.

But Iran, so far, has not allowed Hezbollah to fire one of the Zelzal missiles, the Israelis say.

The former Syrian president, Hafez al-Assad, was careful to restrict supplies to Hezbollah, but his son, Bashar, who took over in 2000 — the year Israel pulled out of Lebanon — has opened its warehouses.

Syria has given Hezbollah 220-millimeter and 302-millimeter missiles, both equipped with large, anti-personnel warheads. Syria has also given Hezbollah its most sophisticated antitank weapons, sold to the Syrian Army by Russia.

Those, General Kuperwasser said, include the Russian Metis and RPG-29. The RPG-29 has both an antitank round to better penetrate armor and an anti-personnel round. The Metis is more modern yet, wire-guided with a longer range and a higher speed, and can fire up to four rounds a minute.

Some Israelis say they believe that Syria has provided Hezbollah with the Russian-made Kornet, laser-guided, with a range of about three miles, which Hezbollah may be holding back, waiting for Israel to move farther into southern Lebanon and extend its supply lines.

Despite Israeli complaints to Moscow, “Russia just decided to close its eyes,” a senior Israeli official said.

In its early years, Hezbollah specialized in suicide bombings and kidnappings. The United States blames it for the suicide attacks on the American Embassy in Beirut and a Marine barracks in 1983. The group became popular in the Shiite south and set up its mini-state there, as well as reserving to itself a section of southern Beirut, known as Security Square.

Until 2003, Timur Goksel was the senior political adviser to Unifil, the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, which monitors the border. He says he knows Hezbollah well and speaks with admiration of its commitment and organization.

After fighting the Israelis for 18 years, “they’re not afraid of the Israeli Army anymore,” he said in a telephone interview from Beirut. Hezbollah’s ability to harass the Israelis and study their flaws, like a tendency for regular patrols and for troop convoys on the eve of the Sabbath, gave Hezbollah confidence that the Israeli Army “is a normal human army, with normal vulnerabilities and follies,” he added.

Now, however, “Hezbollah has much better weapons than before,” he said.

Mr. Goksel describes Hezbollah much as the Israelis do: careful, patient, attuned to gathering intelligence, scholars of guerrilla warfare from the American Revolution to Mao and the Vietcong, and respectful of Israeli firepower and mobility.

“Hezbollah has studied asymmetrical warfare, and they have the advantage of fighting in their own landscape, among their people, where they’ve prepared for just what the Israelis are doing — entering behind armor on the ground,” Mr. Goksel said.

“They have staff work and they do long-term planning, something the Palestinians never do,” he said. “They watch for two months to note every detail of their enemy. They review their operations — what they did wrong, how the enemy responded. And they have flexible tactics, without a large hierarchical command structure.”

That makes them very different from the Soviet-trained Arab armies the Israelis defeated in 1967 and 1973, which had a command structure that was too regimented.

In 1992, when Sheik Hassan Nasrallah took over, he organized Hezbollah into three regional commands with military autonomy. Beirut and the Hezbollah council made policy, but did not try to run the war. Sheik Nasrallah — said to have been advised by the secretive Imad Mugniyeh, a trained engineer wanted by the United States on terrorism charges — thereby improved Hezbollah’s security and limited its communications.

It set up separate and largely autonomous units that live among civilians, with local reserve forces to provide support, supplies and logistics. Hezbollah commanders travel in old cars without bodyguards or escorts and wear no visible insignia, Mr. Goksel said, to keep their identities hidden.

Hezbollah began by setting up roadside bombs detonated by cables, which the Israelis learned to defeat with wire-cutting attachments to their vehicles. Then Hezbollah used radio detonators, which the Israelis also defeated, and then cellphone detonators, and then a double system of cellphones, and then a photocell detonator — like the beam that opens an automatic door. Now, Mr. Goksel said, Hezbollah is working with pressure detonators dug into the roads, even as the Israelis weld metal plates to the bottom of their tanks.

Hezbollah, Mr. Goksel says, has clear tactics, trying to draw Israeli ground troops farther into Lebanon. “They can’t take the Israelis in open battle,” he said, “so they want to draw them in to well-prepared battlefields,” like Aita al Shaab, where there has been fierce fighting.

He added: “They know the Israelis depend too much on armor, which is a prime target for them. And they want Israeli supply lines to lengthen, so they’re easier to hit.”

Israeli tanks have been struck by huge roadside bombs planted in expectation that Israeli armor would roll across the border, said one tank lieutenant, who in keeping with military policy would only give his first name, Ohad.

At least two soldiers from his unit have been wounded by snipers who are accurate at 600 yards. The Hezbollah fighters “are not just farmers who have been given weapons to fire,” he said. “They are persistent and well trained.”

Another tank company commander, a captain who gave his name as Edan, said that about 20 percent of the missiles that have hit Israeli tanks penetrated the Merkava armor or otherwise caused causalities.

Col. Mordechai Kahane, the commander of the Golani brigade’s Egoz unit, first set up to fight Hezbollah, told the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot of one of the worst early days, when his unit went into Marun al Ras in daylight, and lost a senior officer and a number of men.

“Hezbollah put us to sleep” building up its fortifications, he said. “There’s no certainty that we knew that we were going to encounter what it is that we ultimately encountered. We said, ‘There is going to be a bunker here, a cave there,’ but the thoroughness surprised us all. A Hezbollah weapons storeroom is not just a natural cave. It’s a pit with concrete, ladders, emergency openings, escape routes. We didn’t know it was that well organized.”

General Kuperwasser, too, respects Hezbollah’s ability “to well prepare the battlefield,” but says, “We’re making progress and killing a lot of them, and more of them are giving up in battle now and becoming prisoners, which is a very important sign.”

Steven Erlanger reported from Jerusalem for this article, and Richard A. Oppel Jr. from Zarit, Israel. Mark Mazzetti contributed reporting from Washington.


Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company


The Israeli Airforce has complete dominance in the region, and ariel bombardments could easily wipe out large parts of Hezbollah.

They may have dominance of the sky but that matters very little with guerilla warfare. Like the article said, Israel is relying heavily on tanks, because the fighters are mixed in with other civilians. Israel could bomb the shit out of Hezbollah, but not without a lot of collateral damage and public outcry.
 
Here's the mistake that everyone involved in this conflict is making. Histroy shows that dipoplomacy only causes or delays new wars. It is the unfortunate reality that the only way to end a conflict is when one side or the other is reduced to rubble and completely defeated. The perfect illustration of this is the fact that we haven't had any trouble with Germany or Japan for 61 years. Their utter defeat at the end of WWII is the reason basic reason why the same long running conflict (Balkan Wars, WWI, WWII) were stopped at the end of WWII. Well, mostly, that is.

The whole purpose of war (as von Calusewitz and Jomine stated 200 years ago) is to render the enemy incapable of continuing the fight. There are a number of ways to do this, some ethical, some not so ethical. The accepted ethical way is to annihilate the enemy's military capacity and industrial infrastructure. Fighting a war to anything but the logical conclusion of total victory is just giving the enemy time to regroup and attack at a later time.

Diplomacy, OTOH, is a tactic which is usually employed by the weaker side to buy time or employed by ideologically inept for non-practical ends. To think that Islamic Terrorists will give up their fight against Israel, or for Israel to give up it's fight against Islamic Terrorists trying to exterminate Israel is utter folly. The problem that no one wants to deal with is 'stateless' military and political entities. These arrangements are a very, very bad thing because it allows people to use others as 'proxy' agents, be those proxies terrorist organizations or even the UN.

I find it bizarre that the UN calls for a multi-national 'peace keeping force' (a contradiction of terms' in Lebanon, but never even thought of it for Iraq or Iran. Think about that and draw your own conclusions.
 
//Israel's entire existence is based on some fictitious book written thousands of years ago. If I was to say I was gay, and gays were persecuted by Hitler, and I wrote a book saying that England should be given to gay people, and I demanded England be turned into a homosexual refuge, and anyone not gay would be ethnically cleansed, I would be considered crazy - yet this is exactly what is happening in Israel.//
Seriously, OPA?... Jew have been living in Israel for quite a long time including the last few thousand years. It was off and on a Jewish state (between various occupations.) The Palestineans (ie named after Phoenicians, the Romans called it Palestine simply to blur the idea it was a Jewish state, the Phoenicians lived to the north of it) was a term that came about in the last half a century. And, to those who give legitmacy to a people who never controlled the place and never really did anything to it, they admit it was not Israel that originally occupied the terroritories. It was the Ottomans, the Jordanians, and before either various other people. The Arabs by the way moved into the area quite recently. Besides who is a Palestinean? There were Jews living in Jerusalem and other towns nonstop since the expulsion by the Romans. Are they Palestineans? Are Druze Palestineans?

Now, the "gays" hardly have any special connection to England.
I know this conversation isn't a discussion on the legitmacy of Israel (rather its conflict), but to make such a comparision even in partial jest is absolute rubbish. And if you really think Hezbollah is so great, well then why can't they ask their pals in Syria and Iran to help their brethen in Palestine. Eh? How much land and resources have they given to the "refugees" in the Occupied Terroritories? In fact, Muslim governments have simply used the Palestineans as shield to how crappily they treat their populace and how bad their governments are.

I don't claim Israel is perfect, but no country has ever been perfect thus making that argument null and void. The question is Israel an overall respectful country and the answer is most definitely.

O and those various UN resolutions that Israel defies are almostly exclusively written by the Arab bloc, which is hardly a beacon of human rights and benevolent governance (yet *gasp* hardly ever blamed internationally except for example Iraq when it attackes oil rich Kuwait). Just a controller of oil and votes.
 
That might be true, but they lack a strong ground force or nuclear weapons.

That is not true Hez, ground fighters are well trained even according to the Israel army, saying they are not a terrorist group, but a terrorist army.

The thing that pisses me off about Israel this time is that the whole thing screams bullshit. Israel detaines (sp) many palestinien, often without charge, for very long peroids of time, but as soon as someone does it to them, they cry foul, and use words such as terrorist. Hez, is much different then your average terrorist group, and they provide schools, hospitals and other infrastructure to the people of Leb. Also, Israel seems to be getting little done with their bombs. A news reporter who was in Iraq durring "Shock and Awe" said durring US, and UK bombing on building would go down in a block, but with Israel, 9 or 10 would. That is not "target" bombing. Also, why the hell did Israel blow up every bridge, then the list highway escape road

- I G2G i will finish this later
 
leunig_cartoon.gif


Just replace the "2002" with "2006" and you've got the situation in a nutshell.
 
I guess I should stay out of this, because somehow I always manage to step on toes.

The only point I would like to make is that the death of uninvolved civilians, by intent or carelessness, is an unacceptable way to wage a war no matter the perceived cause or necessity, and the ones who think that way are unfit as leaders.
 
I guess I should stay out of this, because somehow I always manage to step on toes.

The only point I would like to make is that the death of uninvolved civilians, by intent or carelessness, is an unacceptable way to wage a war no matter the perceived cause or necessity, and the ones who think that way are unfit as leaders.
That's the conumdrum of war - innocent civilians always get killed. It's the nature of war. Obviously, you don't want to and should not target civilians. Nonetheless, there is no way to avoid it.

Here's the problem - if an enemy attacks you and kills your civilians in the process, do you simple refuse to retaliate in self-defense because you don't want to accidentally kill innocent enemy civilians?If you take that course, then you are essentially murdering your own innocent civilians by your refusal to act in self defense.

Then there's the ultimate historical illustration of the mis-fortunes of war - if the Allies in WWII refused to retaliate in WWII because they were worried about harming enemy civilians, innocent or otherwise, where would we be today and what would our world be like today if Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were allowed to go on their merry way to world domination and conquest?

On thing that can be counted on in war is that civillians suffer accidentally or deliberately. You can, given the nature of modern Islamo-Fascists like Hezbollah and Al Queida, that such an enemy will target your innocent civillian population as their main target. Of course you want to target the main perpetrators of terrorism and neutralize them. But the problem is that these Islamic terrorists hide amongst their own innocent population using them as 'human shields' to score propaganda points in the twisted propaganda we call the 'mass media'.

The point being is that if you put a missile launcher in a civilian area and collateral casualties result when someone takes out that missile launcher, you are directly responsible for those collateral casualties because you deliberately put innocents at risk by using them as human shields.

I really resent how the 'mass media' has essentially turned the victim of aggression (Israel in this instance) into the aggressor and then make out Hezbollah to be some kind of charity relief group that has done no wrong. It's absurd and the biggest offender is CNN. Then to heap insult to injury they refer to Hezhollah as 'militants', 'alleged militants, engaging in 'asymetrical warfare' because the spineless b*stards in the mass media don't have the guts to call Hezbollah exactly what they are: murdering thugs and terrorists who have the exact attitude that Hitler had, and worse. The mass media is apparently scared to criticize Islamo-faschist terrorists because somehow mass murder had become a doctrine of their 'religion'. It's all very twisted.

The whole issue with groups like Hezbollah is that if you don't wipe them out, they will keep coming back time and time again. Take my word for it, these terrorists won't be stopped by diplomacy. They will only be stopped when they are dead.

It is thoroughly unthinkable that people who saw people's heads off on TV, blow up children playing soccer, kill their own people for not putting diapers on their goats in the fields (yeah, that really happened in Iraq the other day) or try to exterminate someone because they happen to be a Jew or anything else.

What nobody has even begun to understand is what is going on. This is the beginning of a war for the very survival of Western Civilization. The only question is whether we all want to keep our current civilization or convert to extreme radical Islam and just give up.

There is no justification for what the Islamic terrorist element is doing and their is no justification for their ultimage goals. And there is no justification in the world for not doing everything in our power to wipe them out so they never pose any kind of a threat ever again. Unfortunately, unless one has become the victim of these terrorists or directly affected by their acts one doesn't understand the urgency of wiping out terrorists wherever they are and whenever possible.

I saw first hand what happened on 9-11 and believe me, I know exactly why terrorists like Hezbollah and anyone who materially supports them needs to take a long dirt-nap.

And leaving terrorists alone won't do a damned thing to stop them from coming and killing you. These extremists have defiled their own religion and the religion of millions of others by making murder a religions act.
 
//OPA Cartoon//
You need to learn about the wonderful word called "anti-semitism". The Jews must "fight" to stop it, and this has been proven time after time. Even in developed countries like France and Germany (that is very recently), people are still beat up for being Jews (luckily the EU supposedly did something a few years back...not sure if it works). As always, when Jews are in another state, then at sometime an anti-Jewish forces rises up to persecute them. Now that Israel is a state, it doesn't mean it will be all peaceful for the Jews; rather, the fighting unfortunately continues as we all see. The only difference is that it will be the decisions of Jews not others. And any Jew either in Eastern Europe, the Mid East, or Latin America who feels threatened can move to a country that will never succumb to anti-semitism only if itself is destroyed. Holocaust and the State of Israel, a comparision of champions, OPA. :clap: :duh:


//The only point I would like to make is that the death of uninvolved civilians, by intent or carelessness, is an unacceptable way to wage a war no matter the perceived cause or necessity, and the ones who think that way are unfit as leaders. //
Ok please answer this. An enemy is in cities with civilians that has bombs that can travel more than 20 miles into your country. How can you stop them without killing civilians? What would you do?
 
How can you stop them without killing civilians? What would you do?

im no military man, but bombing campagins would seem to kill a large amount of civilians vrs sending troops in, but at the same time you would have higher troop deaths
 
Now that Israel is a state,
Which does not deserve to exist.

Sarcodina:
it doesn't mean it will be all peaceful for the Jews; rather, the fighting unfortunately continues as we all see.

And the fact of the matter is that the Israeli government has done nothing to stop the fighting. They do not want peace, they want more land to increase their Zionist sphere of influence.

Sarcodina:
And any Jew either in Eastern Europe, the Mid East, or Latin America who feels threatened can move to a country that will never succumb to anti-semitism only if itself is destroyed.

Yes, I'd rather live in a country where the government incites terrorists than in say, Germany or Mexico any day.

Sarcodina:
Holocaust and the State of Israel, a comparision of champions, OPA.  :clap:  :duh:

Actually, the comparison was the lie that "Work Will Make You Free" and the lie that "Peace will Be Won Through War" are similar. Freedom at Auschwitz could not be achieved through work, just as peace in Isreal/the middle east cannot be achieved through war.
 
Tactical/strategic note on the current situation...

Israel just pulled back about 1000 tanks and a few thousand troops out of Lebanon. News agencies think this is a bid for a possibly cease-fire, etc. I think the news media are entirely wrong, and I'll tell you why and what the Israelis are doing...

As a military man, I would do exactly what the Israelis are doing now, not for propaganda points, but for strategic advantage. Right now, as I type, the Syrians are de-mining their common border with Israel (Golan Heights). Why would they do this? Because Syria wants to cross into southern Lebanon to trap a large chunk of the IDF in Lebanon and then move into Israel. The Israelis saw this coming before the Syrians even thought of trying it. (Syria can't cross into Lebanon without removing their own AT mines from the Golan. Or at least this is what my military mind tells me.

Judging from what I know about the IDF, God help the Syrians if they do something really stupid like get overtly involved with this. If they do, Syria will probably cease to exist when the Israelis get done with them.

Oddly enough, the overall Israeli strategy in this fight has me a bit puzzled - it's not like any other strategy they have employed before. Usually Israel goes for the Offensive-defensive strategy which is essentially, in their application, Blitzkrieg. What you are seeing though is something totally new given that Israel generally follows the old WWII German Blitzkrieg strategy. Germans invented it, but the Israelis perfected it.

In this conflict they have used the Air Phase, Armor Phase, Infantry Phase in that order; used close armor/artillery/air support for ground troops, but they seem to be somewhat lacking on the Airborne Phase (incursion to capture strategic assets/disrupt
supply/communication lines). What has me really puzzled is that the IDF has the assets to simply erase Hezbollah in one fell swoop, but hasn't done so.

My analysis is that Israel is working on the 'end game' and they have something really sneaky up their sleeves. I predict two possible scenarios for the Israeli end game:

1. There is no ceasefire and the IDF turns Hezbollah into a bloody great heap of corpses, or

2. They go for a cease-fire, UN Peace Keeping troops are sent in, Hezbollah uses the UN troops as a 'human shield' between them and the Israelis and continue to attack Israel with missiles, in which case the UN troops get caught in the middle and the UN is forced to use military action against Hezbollah.

Either way, Syria is jockying for a move into Lebanon and that will put Demascus in Israeli crosshairs for a royally good bombing. If the Syrians have two braincells to rub together, they really need to keep out of it altogether or they will most likely get a good coating of green glass C/O Israel.

You may now take bets on whether I am right about this one.
 
I agree with OPA, I say I was anything besides a white male in America, most likely there would be discrimination agisnt myself. Yet the Jews are the only state with their own home land, and you know what I blame the people who created Israel for this conflict. They thought Jews needed a home land let the put it in the most controvercial territory, which 3 major religions consider Holy. Why couldnt the countries who made Israel put Israel in their own country?
 
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